FG fake (offense or Special Teams TD?)

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  • prop
    SBR MVP
    • 09-04-07
    • 1073

    #1
    FG fake (offense or Special Teams TD?)
    This is an offensive TD correct? Seems common sense to me, but just want to be sure its not considered special teams.
  • Justin7
    SBR Hall of Famer
    • 07-31-06
    • 8577

    #2
    Weird. Offensive TD seems like the best answer. Is there a rule page for this prop?
    Comment
    • prop
      SBR MVP
      • 09-04-07
      • 1073

      #3
      No, just asking in general. I'd assume offensive TD but an old database I purchased years ago and was just taking a look at its usefulness today has these listed as special teams which I assume is wrong and was going to fix, but then wanted to ask and make sure.

      Another odd question:

      New Orleans QB has a pass picked off by Redskins
      Redskins player while returning INT fumbles the ball.
      New Orleans recovers fumble and returns it for a TD.

      Is this an offense or defensive score? That's one I am less sure about. The score was made by the team who started the play as the offense. At the time the recovery was made they were playing defensively.

      Is this considered and offensive or a defensive TD? Again my guess is offense because it was scored by New Orleans offense but not entirely sure that is correct because they were no longer the offensive team once the interception was made.
      Comment
      • LT Profits
        SBR Aristocracy
        • 10-27-06
        • 90963

        #4
        Not even debatable, it is an offensive touchdown. Since the ball was never kicked, it is considered an offensive play.

        The ONLY touchdowns that are considered special teams touchdowns are on plays started by a kick (kick-off return, punt return, return of a fumbled kick-off, return of a fumbled punt, blocked punt return, blocked field goal return).

        I think those are all the "special teams touchdown" possibilities.
        Comment
        • Justin7
          SBR Hall of Famer
          • 07-31-06
          • 8577

          #5
          I believe the second one is a defensive score. But I'd get a second opinion on that one.
          Comment
          • dwaechte
            SBR Hall of Famer
            • 08-27-07
            • 5481

            #6
            I would say defensive TD for that second one as well. 99% sure.
            Comment
            • LT Profits
              SBR Aristocracy
              • 10-27-06
              • 90963

              #7
              Originally posted by prop
              No, just asking in general. I'd assume offensive TD but an old database I purchased years ago and was just taking a look at its usefulness today has these listed as special teams which I assume is wrong and was going to fix, but then wanted to ask and make sure.

              Another odd question:

              New Orleans QB has a pass picked off by Redskins
              Redskins player while returning INT fumbles the ball.
              New Orleans recovers fumble and returns it for a TD.

              Is this an offense or defensive score? That's one I am less sure about. The score was made by the team who started the play as the offense. At the time the recovery was made they were playing defensively.

              Is this considered and offensive or a defensive TD? Again my guess is offense because it was scored by New Orleans offense but not entirely sure that is correct because they were no longer the offensive team once the interception was made.
              Offensive. The team that scored the touchdown had its offense on the field. It is no different than if a player fumbles and a teammate recovers it and then goes all the way, it goes in the books as an offensive fumble return for touchdown.
              Comment
              • pavyracer
                SBR Aristocracy
                • 04-12-07
                • 82741

                #8
                How about a fake punt that scores for a TD? Is this the same as FG fake.

                And what if after the completed pass on a fake punt the receiver fumbles the ball and the other team returns the fumble for a TD? Is it special teams or a defensive TD?
                Comment
                • LT Profits
                  SBR Aristocracy
                  • 10-27-06
                  • 90963

                  #9
                  Originally posted by pavyracer
                  How about a fake punt that scores for a TD? Is this the same as FG fake.

                  And what if after the completed pass on a fake punt the receiver fumbles the ball and the other team returns the fumble for a TD? Is it special teams or a defensive TD?
                  Yes, it is treated as a normal offensive play because there was no kick. Therefore, the last part would be a defensive touchdown.
                  Comment
                  • prop
                    SBR MVP
                    • 09-04-07
                    • 1073

                    #10
                    Thanks for response LT. The first one makes complete sense (FG/Punt Fake) because all that changes was their formation. They went out on field and made an offensive play despite lining up as if they'd do something different.

                    The second one I'd like to know for sure. Are you 100% certain that is still an offensive TD?

                    Thanks for the conversation guys.
                    Comment
                    • prop
                      SBR MVP
                      • 09-04-07
                      • 1073

                      #11
                      Originally posted by LT Profits
                      It is no different than if a player fumbles and a teammate recovers it and then goes all the way, it goes in the books as an offensive fumble return for touchdown.
                      It appears different because there was a change of possession. Lets say it was 4th and 10 on that play the ball was picked off 4 yards from scrimmage he advanced ball back 3 yards fumbled it where it was recovered by the team that started on offense. on 4th and 10 the ball advanced only 1 yard from where the play started. It would still be 1st and 10 for that team, correct? because possession changed.
                      Comment
                      • Jontheman
                        SBR High Roller
                        • 09-09-08
                        • 139

                        #12
                        "New Orleans QB has a pass picked off by Redskins
                        Redskins player while returning INT fumbles the ball.
                        New Orleans recovers fumble and returns it for a TD."


                        That has to be an offensive TD in any sensible reading of the play. Don't see the relevance of there being 2 or 10 turnovers on the play; the offence lined up at scrimmage and the end result is that they got the ball in the endzone. They can achieve that any way they like as long as no penalty is involved. I'd say that "passing" to the opposition cornerback and then flattening him so that he fumbles it back to you is as valid a way to score as any other way for the offence. I'd play merry hell if a book didn't grade it that way for me.
                        Comment
                        • LT Profits
                          SBR Aristocracy
                          • 10-27-06
                          • 90963

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Jontheman
                          "New Orleans QB has a pass picked off by Redskins
                          Redskins player while returning INT fumbles the ball.
                          New Orleans recovers fumble and returns it for a TD."


                          That has to be an offensive TD in any sensible reading of the play. Don't see the relevance of there being 2 or 10 turnovers on the play; the offence lined up at scrimmage and the end result is that they got the ball in the endzone. They can achieve that any way they like as long as no penalty is involved. I'd say that "passing" to the opposition cornerback and then flattening him so that he fumbles it back to you is as valid a way to score as any other way for the offence. I'd play merry hell if a book didn't grade it that way for me.
                          Basically, this.

                          If the team that snapped the ball at the beginning of the play scores, it is an offensive touchdown no matter how many change of possessions there were within the play.
                          Comment
                          • LT Profits
                            SBR Aristocracy
                            • 10-27-06
                            • 90963

                            #14
                            Originally posted by prop
                            It appears different because there was a change of possession. Lets say it was 4th and 10 on that play the ball was picked off 4 yards from scrimmage he advanced ball back 3 yards fumbled it where it was recovered by the team that started on offense. on 4th and 10 the ball advanced only 1 yard from where the play started. It would still be 1st and 10 for that team, correct? because possession changed.
                            Yes that is true but it is irrelevant to the original question, which only deals with who gets credit when touchdowns are scored.

                            I get what you are saying that the offense becomes the "defense" after the initial change of possession, but the scoring rules don't see it that way. If they did, there would be no such thing as a defensive touchdown because whoever gains possession of the ball would always instantly become the offense.

                            Rather, who gets credit is determined by who is on offense/defense at the start of the play.
                            Comment
                            • Peregrine Stoop
                              SBR Wise Guy
                              • 10-23-09
                              • 869

                              #15
                              this is some cool stuff and actually quite relevant for prop pricing.
                              Comment
                              • LegitBet
                                Restricted User
                                • 05-25-10
                                • 538

                                #16
                                Nice job LT,
                                Two points here
                                One, it makes sense that the team that started the play as offense is still offense, as a fumble or pick 6 is considered a defensive TD, and it makes sense that there cannot be two defenses on the field at the same time.
                                Also you mentioned the importance of kicking the ball . The change of possession could occur after a failed 4th down conversion.
                                Now in college blocked extra point can be run back fo a TD, same rule?
                                How about a punt that gets fumbled and returned for a td?
                                Doesn't the moment the kicker's foot touch the ball, possession changes, thus the offense turns into defense, since the receiving team becomes offense at that point?
                                Comment
                                • LT Profits
                                  SBR Aristocracy
                                  • 10-27-06
                                  • 90963

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by LegitBet
                                  Now in college blocked extra point can be run back fo a TD, same rule?
                                  How about a punt that gets fumbled and returned for a td?
                                  Doesn't the moment the kicker's foot touch the ball, possession changes, thus the offense turns into defense, since the receiving team becomes offense at that point?
                                  I left out an important exception to the special teams must start with a kick rule: all points scored off of a PAT or a two-point conversion attempt are considered special teams scores, with no kick necessary. Thus, the 'reverse deuce" in college is always special teams.

                                  If a punter fumbles a snap and the defense picks it up and scores without it actually being punted, it is a defensive touchdown.

                                  If the punter's foot makes contact with the ball legally at any point, it is considered a punt and becomes a special teams touchdown.

                                  If the punter's foot makes contact with the ball illegally at any point (i.e., an intentional backwards kick), it is a penalty, and if the play ends in a score and the penalty is declined, it is a defensive score.
                                  Comment
                                  • LegitBet
                                    Restricted User
                                    • 05-25-10
                                    • 538

                                    #18
                                    If there's a loop hole i'll find it. Got you LT on the college expample..)
                                    It was because if me that The Greek prop wording for NBA how many fouls will a player get was changed to exclude tech fouls, several years ago.
                                    Comment
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