Regarding That Roughing the Kicker call in the Oregon State game.

**ShamsWoof10** · 12-28-07, 11:07 PM

I believe that is incorrect... The punter becomes a runner once he starts running..

**prickbeater101** · 12-29-07, 01:53 PM

No LT I believe you are right. Once the ball hits the ground all protection is off as far as the punter is concerned. This was once the ruling as I understand it. Rules are changing so fast now and these personal fouls being called its getting ridiculous. Can't hit the QB high. Can't hit the QB low. Why do they wear equipment? I believe in protecting players but they are getting way out of line now a days with these calls

**LT Profits** · 12-29-07, 02:15 PM

prickbeater,

Maybe that rule is for NFL only? There was never a peep last night, so it is apparantly not the rule in college.

**Actionbrett** · 12-29-07, 02:25 PM

somewhat O/T but has to do with NCAAF officiating.

In the ASU/Texas game Thursday night during the play where Carpenter was called for a backwards pass and the Texas coach touched the ball there were at least 4 additional Texas players and 2 coaches on the field(from the sidelines) while the play was still officially "live".

They were only a foot or two from the sidelines but still on the field, was there suppose to be a penalty called for having too many men on the field?

Also, the same play happened on 3rd down and Texas was called for an unsportsmanlike like penalty for illegally touching the ball, why was this not a automatic 1st down?

**prickbeater101** · 12-29-07, 02:56 PM

LT...maybe so. I am almost certain that rule applies in high school. Maybe thats where the confusion is. My dad coached high school for 25 yrs and I will call and ask him about this rule..

**prickbeater101** · 12-29-07, 03:07 PM

He seems to think that the ruling in high school is still that way but in college they changed it awhile back.

**curious** · 12-29-07, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by LT Profits

The punter short-hopped the ball and was then run into. I THOUGHT that once the ball hit the ground, the punter in effect becomes a runner and roughing the kicker can't be called. Am I wrong?

Apparently I am since the announcers never mentioned anything and there was no argument on the field.

You are wrong. I assume this was either a rugby style kick, or a quick-kick (ball is dropped so that it bounces once, then is kicked). When a punter is attempting a rugby style kick (or quick kick), when he is running, he is a runner, when he is in the act of kicking he is a punter, the special protection that punters get is over once the kicking action is completed. This is an obscure rule because rugby style punters are a recent phenomena. Punters who quick kick are even less common than rugby style punters. I would guess that even a lot of players do not fully understand this rule.

The special protection given to punters, in a situation where the punter quick-kicks or does a rugby style kick, lasts from the beginning of the act of kicking the ball until the completion of the act of kicking the ball. This rule, of course, can make roughing the kicker penalties more of a judgement call.

**ShamsWoof10** · 12-29-07, 03:34 PM

Good point curious... I know the NFL rule is NOT when the ball hits the ground... I have a friend who is currently a HS offical and I'll ask him about the HS and NFL rule...

I believe LT and PrickB are wrong...

**prickbeater101** · 12-29-07, 04:10 PM

Yes shams we have admitted we are wrong. In high school, unless it has changed, when the ball hits the ground you are fair game. In college, it is different. It has changed to protect the punter

**LT Profits** · 12-29-07, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by curious

You are wrong. I assume this was either a rugby style kick, or a quick-kick (ball is dropped so that it bounces once, then is kicked). When a punter is attempting a rugby style kick (or quick kick), when he is running, he is a runner, when he is in the act of kicking he is a punter, the special protection that punters get is over once the kicking action is completed. This is an obscure rule because rugby style punters are a recent phenomena. Punters who quick kick are even less common than rugby style punters. I would guess that even a lot of players do not fully understand this rule.

The special protection given to punters, in a situation where the punter quick-kicks or does a rugby style kick, lasts from the beginning of the act of kicking the ball until the completion of the act of kicking the ball. This rule, of course, can make roughing the kicker penalties more of a judgement call.

No curious, it was not a rugby style punt. It was simply a bad (low) snap that the punter short-hopped. He then took a couple of studder-steps and managed to get the punt off, at which time he was run into. Based on what you said that a punter becomes a punter once he begins his punting motion, then the officials were correct, even if this wasn't the most natural of punting motions.

It's just that I don't remember that being the rule.

**louisvillekid** · 12-29-07, 05:52 PM

if anyone can decipher this.....

http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/2007/2007_football_rules.pdf

Roughing or Running Into Kicker or Holder
ARTICLE 3. a. When it is obvious that a scrimmage kick will be made, no
opponent shall run into or rough the kicker or the holder of a place kick
(A.R. 5-2-2-I and A.R. 9-1-3-I, III and VI).
1. Roughing is a personal foul that endangers the kicker or holder.
2. Running into the kicker or holder is a foul that occurs when the
kicker or holder is displaced from his kicking or holding position but
is not roughed (A.R. 9-1-3-II).
3. Incidental contact with a kicker or holder is not a foul.
4. The kicker and holder must be protected from injury, but contact
that occurs when or after a scrimmage kick has been touched is not
roughing or running into the kicker or holder.
5. The kicker of a scrimmage kick loses protection as a kicker when he
has had a reasonable time to regain his balance (A.R. 9-1-3-IV).
6. A defensive player legally blocked into the kicker or holder by a
member of the kicking team is not exempt from fouls for running into
or roughing the kicker or holder. A defensive player illegally blocked
into the kicker or holder by a member of the kicking team is exempt
from fouls for running into or roughing the kicker or holder.
7. When a player, other than one who blocks a scrimmage kick, runs
into or roughs the kicker or holder, it is a foul.
8. When in question whether the foul is “running into’’ or “roughing,’’
the foul is “roughing.’’
PENALTY—Five yards from the previous spot for running into the
kicker or holder [S30]. Fifteen yards from the previous spot
and a first down for roughing the kicker or holder if the first down is not in conflict with other rules [S38 and S30].
Flagrant offenders shall be disqualified [S47].
b. A kicker or holder simulating being roughed or run into by a defensive
player commits an unsportsmanlike act (A.R. 9-1-3-V).
PENALTY—15 yards from the previous spot [S27].
c. The kicker of a free kick may not be blocked until he has advanced five
yards beyond his restraining line or the kick has touched a player, an
official or the ground.
PENALTY—15 yards from the previous spot [S40].

SECTION 15. Kicks
Legal and Illegal Kicks
ARTICLE 1. Kicking the ball is intentionally striking the ball with the knee,
lower leg or foot.
When in question, a ball is accidentally touched rather than intentionally
kicked.
a. A legal kick is a punt, drop kick or place kick made according to the
rules by a player of Team A before a change of team possession. Kicking
the ball in any other manner is illegal (A.R. 6-1-2-I).
b. Any free kick or scrimmage kick continues to be a kick until it is caught
or recovered by a player or becomes dead.
Punt
ARTICLE 2. A punt is a kick by a player who drops the ball and kicks it
before it strikes the ground.
Drop Kick
ARTICLE 3. A drop kick is a kick by a player who drops the ball and kicks
it as it touches the ground.
Place Kick
ARTICLE 4. a. A field goal place kick is a kick by a player of the team in
possession while the ball is controlled on the ground by a teammate.
b. A free kick place kick is a kick by a player of the team in possession
while the ball is positioned on a tee or the ground. It may be controlled
by a teammate. The ball may be positioned on the ground and contacting
the tee.
c. A tee is a device that elevates the ball for kicking purposes. It may not
elevate the ball’s lowest point more than one inch above the ground
(A.R. 2-15-4-I).
Free Kick
ARTICLE 5. A free kick is a kick by a player of the team in possession made
under restrictions specified in Rules 4-1-4, 6-1-1 and 6-1-2.
Kickoff
ARTICLE 6. A kickoff is a free kick that starts each half and follows each
try or field goal (Exception: Extra periods). It must be a place kick or a
drop kick.
Scrimmage Kick
ARTICLE 7. A scrimmage kick made in or behind the neutral zone is a legal
kick by Team A during a scrimmage down before team possession changes.
A scrimmage kick has crossed the neutral zone when it touches the ground,
a player, an official or anything beyond the neutral zone (Exception: Rule
6-3-1-b) (A.R. 6-3-1-I-V).
Return Kick
ARTICLE 8. A return kick is a kick by a player of the team in possession
after change of team possession during a down and is an illegal kick. It is a
live-ball foul, and the ball becomes dead.
Field Goal Attempt
ARTICLE 9. A field goal attempt is any place kick or drop kick from
scrimmage.
Scrimmage Kick Formation
ARTICLE 10. A scrimmage kick formation is a formation with at least one
player seven yards or more behind the neutral zone, no player in position
to receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper’s legs, and it is
obvious that a kick may be attempted (A.R. 1-4-2-I and A.R. 9-1-2-XXIIXXIV).

**idontlikerocks** · 12-30-07, 01:15 AM

from the rulebook...." the kicker of a free kick may not be blocked until the kick has touched a player, an official, or the ground" sounds like this refers to after the kick has been made, however the rule does not state that specifically........i think the rule that applies is this "when it is obvious that a scrimmage kick will be made, no opponent shall run into or rough the kicker, or the holder of a place kick"

from 2005 rules interpretations

"Kicker A1, in a scrimmage kick formation, moves laterally two or three steps to recover a faulty snap, or recovers a snap that went over his head and then kicks the ball. He is contacted by B2 in an unsuccessful attempt to block the kick. RULING: A1 does not automatically lose his protection in either case. A1 is entitled to protection as in any other kicking situation. When it becomes obvious that A1 intends to kick (in a normal punting position), defensive players must avoid him."

**LT Profits** · 12-30-07, 09:00 AM

louisville,

The clause you highlighted in red applies to free kicks, which are kickoffs or free punts following a safety.

I don't see anything about a ball touching the ground disabling protection, so the call was right.

**louisvillekid** · 12-30-07, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by LT Profits

louisville,

The clause you highlighted in red applies to free kicks, which are kickoffs or free punts following a safety.

I don't see anything about a ball touching the ground disabling protection, so the call was right.

thats why i said "if anyone can decipher this", i was trying to read the rules and that was the only part i ever seen about a ball hitting the ground during a kick. it was confusing as hell to read, with all the free kicks,drop kicks, scrimmage kicks, legal kick, illegal kick, punt, fake punt, etc. you have to agree, its a very confusing read.