[Tomato]

Guys, I just spoke to JustBet management and they agreed it was poorly worded. They apologize for any confusion this may have caused. It will be changed immediately to....

We cater to recreational players only. Any professional, steam, or syndicate players will have their accounts closed immediately and account will be closed and entire balance will be returned to player.

lolwut

[DwightShrute]

Clearly your intentions in this thread have more to do with your personal gains than they do with the quality of Justbet.

Clearly is a poor choice of words on your part. Why? Well it assumes that you have the ability to read my mind and I know you do not. My intentions are not as you say but rather to convey my confidence in this book in the strongest possible way. That is the truth. Anyone that knows me for any length of time knows that I am a man of my word. I will say the exact same thing if you asked me about VIP.com/Nine.com and other books and have given my honest opinion to many posters here because I have either worked there or know the people that do.

I am a sports fanatic and bettor. I know you won't win every time you bet (even though we always plan to) but I would never waste my time to intentionally deceive fellow sports bettors to waste their time and energy playing at a book that is nothing but legit.

No company is perfect and I am sorry that you don't have the highest regards for Justbet. I truly am. I wish they could please 100% of the players that have played there sine 1996, but that's not realistic. They are a great book and I know it first hand and by all the positive feedback from new players and those who play there for many many years. You might not like the MLB lines but they are better than many other book who have 20 cent lines only. Justbet's lines are comparable to anyone's over all.

Some guys just lose and want someone to blame so they go on forums like this. They post inaccurate descriptions of what really happened. Not saying you are by any means and not saying that every negative post is full of shit but I know for a fact that many are.

Sharpcat, let's agree to disagree because I don't want to argue with you about this. You might drive a Chevy and tell everyone that Ford sucks and I might feel the opposite or that I like both. You might have a valid point as to why but I think we can both agree there are many satisfied Ford customers.

[DwightShrute]

(And I just checked .. the rule remains on their site)

that will be corrected within 24 hrs

[sharpcat]

comparing other books to Justbet is not in any way like comparing a ford to a chevy and it is not an opinion these are facts.

Now if I were to show you specs that my chevy had more horsepower and more torque and was faster than your ford and yet still cost me less money long term on gas, well that would be the same as comparing Justbet to other books. Again not my opinion these are facts!!

Justbet has:

-higher juice than 75% of the industry

-far less wagering options than the rest of the industry

-does not release their lines till several hours after all other books have making them even harder to beat as if their juice is not enough.

-scared to take an opinion on a line instead they just tail the sh*t out of pinnacles line

-lower max wagers than a majority of the industry (do not know what you are talking about but $500 on MLB is not a high max wager!!!)

-And as if all this is not enough to make them rich off of their uneducated players they also write rules to allow them to confiscate a players winnings for chasing steam.

WTF qualifies as chasing steam to them???

If you beat the closing line 2 times out of a hundred bets they could say you were chasing steam and confiscate your winnings!!!!!!!!!

Sh*t book I could care less how fast they pay or what kind of bonus they offer when they put their players at such a huge disadvantage.

I think in the 3 months I was with this book I found about 2 lines worth betting and I bet at a very high volume that is pathetic their lines are over juiced and they are raping their customers. I finally just scalped my balance over to another book and got the hell out of there. I am a firm believer that you can never have too many books but this book was doing nothing but tying my funds up.

[DwightShrute]

Sharpcat, Quickly back top the Ford/Chevy analogy ... I never mentioned them but you obviously consider horsepower and torque when determining the better vehicle is, whereas others might not care but are more interested in safety and leg room for example. What's important to you might not be as important to someone else. No one is right IMO.

You don't care about bonuses a fast payouts and that's fine. Lots don't. But I assure you that many do. If you want big wagering limits on NHL and soccer, they probably won't be that appealing to you. You want high wager limits on hoops or football (college or pro) then there is no reason you shouldn't deposit there.

I don't wish to get into any sort of pissing contest with you Sharpcat but you're incorrect in almost every category you stated except maybe the amount of wagering options. However, they do have way more options now than ever since they launched their new homepage in August and also have mobile betting. You might not care about any of that either but many player's love it.

I promise anyone who ever plays at Justbet, they will never confiscate your money and will always pay you when you win. To me and 99% of player's, that's what matters the most.

[Hareeba!]

Sharpcat, Quickly back top the Ford/Chevy analogy ... I never mentioned them but you obviously consider horsepower and torque when determining the better vehicle is, whereas others might not care but are more interested in safety and leg room for example. No one is right IMO. You don't care about bonuses a fast payouts and that's fine but I assure you that many do. If you want big wagering limits on NHL and soccer at Justbet, they probably won't be appealing to you. Like I said earlier, if you want high wager limits on hoops or football (college or pro) then there is no reason you shouldn't deposit there.

we will have to agree to disagree but your incorrect in almost every category you stated.

I don't wish to get into any sort of pissing contest with you Sharpcat but you're incorrect in almost every category you stated except maybe the amount of wagering options. They do have way more options now than ever, brand new homepage and mobile betting.

I promise anyone who ever plays at Justbet, they will never confiscate your money and will always pay you when you win. To me and 99% of player's, that's what matters the most.

you're correct that is what matters most (and IF they rectify that rule which allows them to steal then perhaps they past that test - no offence but I'm not prepared to rely on your personal guarantee)

but to be rated a really top book there are two more tests to pass:
- low juice / genuinely competitive odds
- high limits

it sounds to me that they come up short on both of those compared with the prime books I use
so why would I even consider JustBet?

and I remain perplexed by your earlier reference to 500 players - do you personally know that many playing at Justbet?

[vegasinfom]

How the mother fcuker them that they knows who is who ?

[BChrisB]

Why doesn't JustBet just go big league and take all action. They seem pretty reliable, great software, competent management.

I think they would be a hell of a lot better if they just open their doors and welcome all bettors. They are limiting themselves here and if they just step it up a notch you would see them advertised here as an A+ book (which they almost deserve already barring their own limitations.)

[DwightShrute]

you're correct that is what matters most (and IF they rectify that rule which allows them to steal then perhaps they past that test - no offence but I'm not prepared to rely on your personal guarantee)

but to be rated a really top book there are two more tests to pass:
- low juice / genuinely competitive odds
- high limits

it sounds to me that they come up short on both of those compared with the prime books I use
so why would I even consider JustBet?

and I remain perplexed by your earlier reference to 500 players - do you personally know that many playing at Justbet?

No offense taken sir. By all means, don't play there if you are happy where you are and you like their lines, limits and whatever else you feel is important.

Let me just say this, if you knew me personally and asked me if I know a good book, I would say YES, I know a few. Then if I was any good at my job, which I am, I would find out things that are important to you before recommending a book. If I knew you were a huge English Premier League soccer bettor who's average bet was $500, I wouldn't mention certain books but would others. If you wanted a book for big bonus and reload bonuses then I would this book or others.

Who competes with Pinnacle with the VIG anyway? You tell me. Go to http://sbrodds.com/ and compare Justbet with the others. Nothing different there at all.

To answer your question Hareeba, maybe you shouldn't consider Justbet. I really don't know. Word of mouth is the best form of advertising as we all know. Most of my business is just that. Do some homework when you are considering a new book, ask questions and if you feel comfortable, then proceed. I can only pass on what I know.

Don't believe every negative thing anyone writes and use your common sense. People make mistakes, I have seen it on many sites and when some saw .. accounts closed immediately and account balances confiscated", you correctly pointed it out. They apologized, explained the error and will fix it soon.

Guys, thanks for the emails from notifying us of this thread since it was started btw.

I've done this almost 10 years and I know a thing or two about the industry and the players. I never compromise my integrity for a buck and never will.

[sharpcat]

Why doesn't JustBet just go big league and take all action. They seem pretty reliable, great software, competent management.

I think they would be a hell of a lot better if they just open their doors and welcome all bettors. They are limiting themselves here and if they just step it up a notch you would see them advertised here as an A+ book (which they almost deserve already barring their own limitations.)

According to Dwight they are big time

$1,000 max bet on bball/football sides/totals
$500 max bet on bball/football moneylines

they are halfway to taking rebatewagers max wagers and only $49,000 shy of the max wager amounts of the top books in the industry.

I am not even going to waste my time looking at their NHL and soccer lines here dwight


You really need to come up with some better material here Dwight unless you are trying to be comical.

[Hareeba!]

Don't believe every negative thing anyone writes and use your common sense.

thanks Dwight, I certainly concur with most of what you said but I wasn't just believing negative things. I was seeking positive reasons why I (or others reading this thread) would consider Justbet if I am able to play at the top books which I mentioned. For example:
can I bet $3k on all US sports at odds comparable with the best?
can I make fee free deposits and withdrawals via Moneybookers?

[DwightShrute]

Why doesn't JustBet just go big league and take all action. They seem pretty reliable, great software, competent management.

I think they would be a hell of a lot better if they just open their doors and welcome all bettors. They are limiting themselves here and if they just step it up a notch you would see them advertised here as an A+ book (which they almost deserve already barring their own limitations.)

That's a management thing and a good question BChris.

It's probably complicated as to the reason and in all honesty, I don't care, it is what it is. The bottom line is they have a long standing dependable reputation with thousands of players. They don't ever pretend to be anything other than a book for the recreational bettor. They promise good bonuses and fast free payouts for which there's a huge market and a huge percentage of books are the exact same.

You can open a restaurant and have it 'all you can eat' buffet style attracting tons of people or you can make it a higher end place that serves $1000 bottles of wine and caters to a different group. Both serve food and both can definitely be good food. What is better? Is there one?

Bottom line. no one has ever have their money confiscated at Justbet and if you are a sports bettor looking for a solid book that keeps your money when you lose but pays you fast when you win, with no BS, I can't think of any reason why you shouldn't be playing there.

cheers

[DwightShrute]

thanks Dwight, I certainly concur with most of what you said but I wasn't just believing negative things. I was seeking positive reasons why I (or others reading this thread) would consider Justbet if I am able to play at the top books which I mentioned. For example:
can I bet $3k on all US sports at odds comparable with the best?
can I make fee free deposits and withdrawals via Moneybookers?

Hareeba,

Thanks for the conversation. All we can do is have an honest discussion and hopefully I can help you with your decision making. Whether you play at JustBet or not is secondary.

If you deposit $100 or $200 take a 90% bonus, and want $3000 limits on football and baskets, I doubt that you will get it. They will likely be at the preset of $1000 to start.

If you send Justbet $4000 or $5000 and want $3000 or $4000 on Football and Baskets, and take no bonus, no problem.

Send them 10K and 5K football and basket ball limits I can't see why not.

Send $2500 and take a bonus and want 2K limits on football and baskets. easy!

Call them, tell them I sent ya.

Yes, free payouts via couriered check once a month and MB also.

[DwightShrute]

According to Dwight they are big time

$1,000 max bet on bball/football sides/totals
$500 max bet on bball/football moneylines

they are halfway to taking rebatewagers max wagers and only $49,000 shy of the max wager amounts of the top books in the industry.

I am not even going to waste my time looking at their NHL and soccer lines here dwight


You really need to come up with some better material here Dwight unless you are trying to be comical.

Sharpcat, nowhere did say they were big time. You might be "big time", bet favorites , pick off lines or whatever you do that makes you not that type of clientele they seek. I don't know. If you are successful and make a good living at it, I truly congratulate you. I am jealous, Being a better myself, I wish I was good enough to be a professional gambler. I know they never ripped you or anyone off but you don't like them for the reasons you feel are just. I get it.

Is any book going to be everything to everyone? I doubt it. You don't justbet, I get it and have said a few times not to bother if you want to bet big in NHL or soccer. They take tons of action on football and baskets and thus offer bigger limits on those. Simple and transparent.

[sharpcat]

Hareeba,

Thanks for the conversation. All we can do is have an honest discussion and hopefully I can help you with your decision making. Whether you play at JustBet or not is secondary.

If you deposit $100 or $200 take a 90% bonus, and want $3000 limits on football and baskets, I doubt that you will get it. They will likely be at the preset of $1000 to start.

If you send Justbet $4000 or $5000 and want $3000 or $4000 on Football and Baskets, and take no bonus, no problem.

Send them 10K and 5K football and basket ball limits I can't see why not.

Send $2500 and take a bonus and want 2K limits on football and baskets. easy!

Call them, tell them I sent ya.

Yes, free payouts via couriered check once a month and MB also.

Translation:

"I receive a bonus percentage of the net monthly losses of all players I refer to Justbet."




Vouch for a book because it is truly a good book for the players, not because it benefits you to do so.

Dwight I do not have a problem with you or justbet personally, my problem is with your shilling in this thread. The high praises that you give to this book are motivated by your greed, you have something to gain financially by backing this book.

[DwightShrute]

Translation:

"I receive a bonus percentage of the net monthly losses of all players I refer to Justbet."

Vouch for a book because it is truly a good book for the players, not because it benefits you to do so.

Dwight I do not have a problem with you or justbet personally, my problem is with your shilling in this thread. The high praises that you give to this book are motivated by your greed, you have something to gain financially by backing this book.

Sharpcat, I don't have a problem with you either but you must admit, you do make a lot of assumptions. The most important thing is a poster might be signing up at a good solid book where I personally play and many of my friends do. I have been at this forum 2 years and have rarely jumped into any Justbet discussions. I got 4 emails from Justbet players who noticed that thread and wanted to let know. That's why I responded.

I have stuck up for Bogdogs, VIP, easystreetsports and others in the past. So let me redo my last comment so as to not appear motivated by greed... anyone who wants to give justbet a try, please call them and talk to an account manager but please don't mention me.

Sharpcat, I don't make a cent of any player's losses at any book. I don't have a problem with you either Sharpcat but you must admit, you do make a lot of assumptions.

[Hareeba!]

Hareeba,

Thanks for the conversation. All we can do is have an honest discussion and hopefully I can help you with your decision making. Whether you play at JustBet or not is secondary.

If you deposit $100 or $200 take a 90% bonus, and want $3000 limits on football and baskets, I doubt that you will get it. They will likely be at the preset of $1000 to start.

If you send Justbet $4000 or $5000 and want $3000 or $4000 on Football and Baskets, and take no bonus, no problem.

Send them 10K and 5K football and basket ball limits I can't see why not.

Send $2500 and take a bonus and want 2K limits on football and baskets. easy!

Call them, tell them I sent ya.

Yes, free payouts via couriered check once a month and MB also.

thanks Dwight

I don't really think they are for me

even with the rule fixed I am pretty sure they'll label me a pro, syndicate member, arber or steam chaser before too long ... several others have even though I'm certainly not any of the last 3

And I'm not a bonus chaser either. My view is that the best bonuses come in the form of low juice rather than those which require you to make a heap of turnover on limited bets with high juice.

[DwightShrute]

thanks Dwight

I don't really think they are for me

even with the rule fixed I am pretty sure they'll label me a pro, syndicate member, arber or steam chaser before too long ... several others have even though I'm certainly not any of the last 3

And I'm not a bonus chaser either. My view is that the best bonuses come in the form of low juice rather than those which require you to make a heap of turnover on limited bets with high juice.

I almost wish I never jumped in on this thread because I am exhausted LOL. I do appreciate your comments. I would suggest that you call them and any book you are considering, talk to the sales guys directly because they will be able to answer all your questions. Also, don't put all you eggs in one basket. Nothing wrong with having a couple books at a time. Lots do. Try them out for a smaller amount and give them a test drive and see how you like the book.

Have a great holidays and and ever better new year

[Hareeba!]

I almost wish I never jumped in on this thread because I am exhausted LOL. I do appreciate your comments. I would suggest that you call them and any book you are considering, talk to the sales guys directly because they will be able to answer all your questions. Also, don't put all you eggs in one basket. Nothing wrong with having a couple books at a time. Lots do. Try them out for a smaller amount and give them a test drive and see how you like the book.

Have a great holidays and and ever better new year

hey don't worry on that score ... I have several books and totally endorse your view that you should have more than the one if you are anyway half serious about your betting

just had my holiday during the quietest period of the year thanks and now looking forward to plenty of sports action over the Xmas/NY period but wishing you and all a safe and happy festive season and a prosperous 2011.

[sharpcat]

I apologize if I jumped to the wrong assumption Dwight but if my assumption was wrong would you mind specifying what you meant with this statement.

my best friends play there, so does my dad and over 500 of my best players. No one has or will ever get cheated out of any money. No question what so ever in my mind.

Look at other recreational books' fine print, it's nothing new.

good luck on your bets.

Correct me if I am wrong but why and how would somebody who did not have any affiliation to JustBet have 500 of his "best players" playing at JustBet. You also seem to be pretty hard pressed about sticking up for this book and seem to know an awful lot of their policies.

I mean even touts who recommend players to books get affiliate bonuses. Why do you have 500 players?

Outside of this I have not made any assumptions so it would be great if you could clarify this for me.

[DwightShrute]

I apologize if I jumped to the wrong assumption Dwight but if my assumption was wrong would you mind specifying what you meant with this statement.

Correct me if I am wrong but why and how would somebody who did not have any affiliation to JustBet have 500 of his "best players" playing at JustBet. You also seem to be pretty hard pressed about sticking up for this book and seem to know an awful lot of their policies.

I mean even touts who recommend players to books get affiliate bonuses. Why do you have 500 players?

Outside of this I have not made any assumptions so it would be great if you could clarify this for me.

I don't want to get into details to be honest. It's complicated and I deal with several books.

You are a good guy and a serious bettor I can tell. Let's just say I have many players that trust me and my judgment who trust I have earned over the years who in turn refer me many of their friends. Some of my best player's today are guys that I strongly recommended they NOT go to a certain book, they did anyway, usually for a bigger bonus, and now play where I recommend and won't take that chance anymore. I am just one guy that surrounds himself with good people and good books. I will always give you the straight goods and if I don't know, I will tell you. I don't fish sbr for business but at times I will jump in if I can be of assistance in clarifying an issue.

I always say, if you feel something isn't right, call the book first and let them make it right before airing dirty laundry. I sure as hell ain't perfect but I always appreciate the chance to fix something if I goofed. I have always believed the saying .. If you aren't making ANY mistake ever, you probably aren't doing anything to begin with.

Have a great weekend and good luck on your bets

[stevex]

Have been with JustBet for a little over 4 months now so can't really say much, but have heard that there payouts are fast and painless. That's really all I like to hear about a book

[Monte]

Dwight i think the point is, Justbet has nothing.
Never a line that differs at least a bit from Pinny means you can just play there to loose. At low limits and late lines.
This isn't a sportsbook, it is a copycat. ALL books i know (well maybe besides Legends...) at least have some good priced lines at times (obviously because they want more action on 1 side now). Justbet never does that.

The joke here is, why would they need any protection from sharp or steam players?
There is never a line that could be steam or "sharp" played there, lol.
As i said, this isn't a bookmaker.

[sharpcat]

Dwight i think the point is, Justbet has nothing.
Never a line that differs at least a bit from Pinny means you can just play there to loose. At low limits and late lines.
This isn't a sportsbook, it is a copycat. ALL books i know (well maybe besides Legends...) at least have some good priced lines at times (obviously because they want more action on 1 side now). Justbet never does that.

The joke here is, why would they need any protection from sharp or steam players?
There is never a line that could be steam or "sharp" played there, lol.
As i said, this isn't a bookmaker.

Outside from a limited selection of derivative bets with slightly tasty odds this book offers nothing that you could not find at Betphoenix or rebatewager.

Piss poor book, offer decent odds and max wagers and players may not see you as a waste of time and money to play with


And Dwight nice job of avoiding answering my question, it is obvious now that my assumptions were correct.

[HedgeHog]

I doubt JB would risk their B+ rating by stealing from steam players. Still, the rule should be eliminated.

[pokernut9999]

loose ?

[DwightShrute]

Outside from a limited selection of derivative bets with slightly tasty odds this book offers nothing that you could not find at Betphoenix or rebatewager.
Piss poor book, offer decent odds and max wagers and players may not see you as a waste of time and money to play with
And Dwight nice job of avoiding answering my question, it is obvious now that my assumptions were correct.

SHarpcat, you're not a fan, i get it. Betphoenix or rebatewager are books that lots of players play at but I can't give any insight. I am glad you are happy playing there. Good luck to you.

[Hareeba!]

"We cater to recreational players only. Any professional, steam, or syndicate players will have their accounts closed immediately and entire balance will be returned to player."

Credit to Tomato for alerting players to their unacceptable rule and to Dwight for getting them to rectify it.

[Trucker George]

I don't want to get into details to be honest. It's complicated and I deal with several books.

from post #29

my best friends play there, so does my dad and over 500 of my best players.

Reading through this thread I was thinking this guy Dwight is some type of a shill for this book, but it is obvious the word "shill" is not quite appropriate. Shills generally don't admit to relationships with the service or business they shill for, but Dwight basically admits he has some type of "complicated" relationship with this book and also makes reference to "500 of my best players".

I'm willing to hear out this guy's points but clearly, in my opinion, his arguments are biased due to his admitted (business) relationship with the book.

Of course, everyone reading this thread can draw their own conclusions but Dwight, you've not convinced me of anything. I realize this is not a debate, but if it were, sharpcat would be quite far ahead, in my opinion.

from post #40

I promise anyone who ever plays at Justbet, they will never confiscate your money and will always pay you when you win.

This is a promise you are not in a position to make.

Or are you? I guess that depends on your mysterious complicated relationship with this book.

One more thing: there is a world of difference between closing a player's account and confiscating his money and closing a player's account and returning the funds. Describing the difference as "poorly worded" is really stretching it. Moreover, suggesting the "poor wording" is due to a Costa Rican (web editor) with poor English is approaching the absurd (not impossible, but absurd).

This reminds me of another book that claimed to be licensed but when a poster actually called the licensing authority and inquired about the book, it turned out the book had never even applied. The book responded on the forum basically saying "whoops, that was poorly worded".

[DwightShrute]

from post #29


Reading through this thread I was thinking this guy Dwight is some type of a shill for this book, but it is obvious the word "shill" is not quite appropriate. Shills generally don't admit to relationships with the service or business they shill for, but Dwight basically admits he has some type of "complicated" relationship with this book and also makes reference to "500 of my best players".

I'm willing to hear out this guy's points but clearly, in my opinion, his arguments are biased due to his admitted (business) relationship with the book.

Of course, everyone reading this thread can draw their own conclusions but Dwight, you've not convinced me of anything. I realize this is not a debate, but if it were, sharpcat would be quite far ahead, in my opinion.

from post #40


This is a promise you are not in a position to make.

Or are you? I guess that depends on your mysterious complicated relationship with this book.

One more thing: there is a world of difference between closing a player's account and confiscating his money and closing a player's account and returning the funds. Describing the difference as "poorly worded" is really stretching it. Moreover, suggesting the "poor wording" is due to a Costa Rican (web editor) with poor English is approaching the absurd (not impossible, but absurd).

This reminds me of another book that claimed to be licensed but when a poster actually called the licensing authority and inquired about the book, it turned out the book had never even applied. The book responded on the forum basically saying "whoops, that was poorly worded".

as far as the costa rican translation thing, I don't know if that was why it was poorly written. I am making an educated guess. Bottom line, management was notified and corrected it.

You can say my opinions are biased if you wish but I have never said anything inconsistent. I trust Justbet and other books and if asked about them by a sports bettors, I will give them the straight goods as I know them to be. Nothing else.

Listen, I don't know what the fuss is about. I am just one man and I can only do so much. I know and trust certain books. All I wanted to do was give assurances that your money wouldn't be confiscated. I wasn't trying to solicit business but rather trying to ease the mind of a concerned poster about a poorly worded sentence. I was glad to help. My mistake was that I got into a discussion about the book's limits and wagering options. I was simply defending a book that I know to be solid and trustworthy. Nothing else.

Billions love McDonald's but I am not a fan. What does that mean? It's a personal choice. Ya I could go on and on about their lousy cheeseburgers and the fact they have no onion rings or jalapeno poppers like other restaurants do but I choose not to. If they stole my money, that's another thing.

Justbet has thousands of active player's who are happy playing there and Sharpcat isn't one of them we all know. I trust them and have no problem recommending them to anyone regardless if I am compensated or not.

Take that for what it's worth and good luck on all your bets.

[sideloaded]

Dude Dwight it's clear you're an agent of justbet.

[BrianLaverty]

Dude Dwight it's clear you're an agent of justbet.

I think it was painfully obvious the first time he even posted....

Anybody that uses the word "great" for JustBet must work for them.... Good? Mediocre? Slightly above average? sure... but great? No fuckin way. You can't win more then 1k with them before u are limited/kicked out.... They are just as bad as most Euro books in that regard.

[kiln]

This is the same book that claims to offer 155% deposit bonuses, right? "You get 50% bonus on your 1st dep and 50% bonus on your 2nd dep...that's a 100% bonus!"

[Thremp]

So Justbet no longer has a open admission of a desire and basis to rob players?

Good shit.

[chance]

I suppose that is how they pay the 55% bonus offer. Take from the presumed pros.