[heyman]

I think it's generally accepted that most (about 98% ?) of players lose. Therefore Matchbook by charging commission on losing bets is also relatively less cheap as compared with Betfair which charges only when you win.

I only brought up the professional comment as I assumed we were talking about the hurdles to become a winning player at each of the exchanges. Even if we're not, that most players are long time losers isn't relevant here anyway. Most players are losers because of the vig. If you have a 50% dartboard-thrower who gets -101 at matchbook each time vs. his twin who gets -101 at betfair each time they will both still lose long term. Ones who lose more then win on coin flips will pay more at matchbook but will be balanced out by those who win more. It's a wash overall.

I certainly concede that Betfair's commission structure is more costly than Matchbook's but what I was attempting to point out was that it's not quite as expensive as some might suggest by comparing the "headline" rates of 1% Matchbook and 5% Betfair.

Comparing "apples with apples" Matchbook's rate of 1% is pretty well equivalent to 2% at Betfair.

Only if you are only accepting offers at matchbook - the biggest of the assumptions. For a half offer/half accepting player it is cut in half.

Upthread the apt and easiest comparison to see was that in each settled market, matchbook's take is .8% in commissions, betfair's is 2-5%. That's quite significant.

[heyman]

Continuing with hypothesis.

Would that not also shed a different light on allowing large credit players, which SBR John has reported they have? What if the intent never was to be a pure exchange? As Bill Dozer mentioned earlier in this thread, that credit angle effectively makes them a sportsbook (again...).

The art of shape shifting?

JC used to share his insights, but even he is silent these days. Will Matchbook speak up when it realizes that public silence is no longer in its best interest? Far too many questions for me to be comfortable there.

Again, what questions are unique to matchbook? This isn't done in a vacuum. The majority (all?) of the large top rated books offer credit accounts. That's a risk (and associated costs - credit dpmt) that are shared.

The majority of books are open to uneven action which they must pay out. They can temporarily lose enough not to cover their cash flows or over time they can consistently lose money to sharp players. Or the second can contribute to the first and once withdrawals are delayed it's downhill. That is a risk that matchbook doesn't share. As well as the associated costs: monitoring (winning) players, limiting, banning, searching for multiple users, associated communications etc.

Would that not also shed a different light on allowing large credit players, which SBR John has reported they have?

Out of curiousity, I'd like to read or re-read this thread. What's the link?

[Hareeba!]

I only brought up the professional comment as I assumed we were talking about the hurdles to become a winning player at each of the exchanges. Even if we're not, that most players are long time losers isn't relevant here anyway. Most players are losers because of the vig. If you have a 50% dartboard-thrower who gets -101 at matchbook each time vs. his twin who gets -101 at betfair each time they will both still lose long term. Ones who lose more then win on coin flips will pay more at matchbook but will be balanced out by those who win more. It's a wash overall.




Only if you are only accepting offers at matchbook - the biggest of the assumptions. For a half offer/half accepting player it is cut in half.

Upthread the apt and easiest comparison to see was that in each settled market, matchbook's take is .8% in commissions, betfair's is 2-5%. That's quite significant.

I'm not disagreeing with you but you have gone well beyond the issue in the thread where I was simply answering the question as to how I figured that Matchbook's 1% on accepting bets was effectively equivalent to at least 2% for the purpose of a fair comparison with Betfair's scale.

And that question actually came out of a claim that Matchbook's commission rate was "ridiculously" low.

[lukahh]

Ok, let me look at this from yet another perspective. Is Matchbook making money, or is it on its way to start making money? Positive answer is crucial for a player who is deciding to fund account, because exchanges hold above average % of players portfolio of funds.

I went to compare figures from last weekend's Chelsea - West Brom match odds market:

--> Betfair: 3 mio EUR matched and 0.25 mio close offers. I am speculating that their net comission on this market is, for several reasons, way below 5%. Let's operate with 2% (perhaps quite less still!), which means they net 60k on single match. There are many matches... Very good!

--> Betdaq: 300k EUR matched and 20k close offers. They net couple grand on the match. Let's say this is sustainable.
(note - i assume published BF and BD "matched" numbers are true)

--> Matchbook: no matched info published (perhaps i couldn't see because i don't have an account?). But close offers amounted to less than 2k EUR, which is 10% of Betdaq. I am speculating they net perhaps couple hundred bucks (if even) from this match. It is not sustainable. The caveat is - presumeably MB has high matched numbers in american sports market. Anyone knows what is their matched amount per baseball or football game?

--> as a side note, i'd say major euro bookies might also get 1 mio EUR bets on such game. I don't know. maybe more. probably. with their juice close to 10%, they appear to be making much more money than exchanges.

As for MB, the info about owners and credit betting is very disturbing. but, perhaps owners have learned something from wsex fiasco and credit extended is only temporary (you need seeding at new exchange! - or any exchange for that matter). if their net from usa sports is high enough, i'd be comfortable to fund account there.

[Hareeba!]

wouldn't pay much attention to MB soccer holdings ... the Yanks aren't really into the game whereas in Europe it's a religion

[Odessa]

Is Matchbook making money, or is it on its way to start making money? Positive answer is crucial for a player who is deciding to fund account, because exchanges hold above average % of players portfolio of funds.


--> Anyone knows what is their matched amount per baseball or football game?

Very valid point. I don't care who owns Matchbook, all I care if they are profitable.

Here my personal observations as a customer for last 2 years. There is no volume on Soccer, Tennis, GOLF, Horse Racing, CFL, AFL, WNBA, NASCAR and MMA. Period.

Now, if you bet on American BIG 4(NFL,NBA,MLB,NHL) + College FB and Bastketball picture is totally differently. Since Matchbook changed their commision structure in May 2009 (2% comm. from the winner) to the current (1% from client who accepted the bet) I noticed gradual increase in the amounts posted. It's all depends on particular game and if they game is televised. Currently Baseball (MLB) average between 300K-500K with certain exceptions. I estimate that last night Sunday Night Baseball game between New York Mets and Philadelphia Phillies matched more than 1 million because it was only game available to bet.

IMHO, Matchbook stopped advertise because they reached critical mass and the word is now spread from the satisfied customers.

In conclusion, if you want Matchbook for Soccer, unless it's World Cup than you will be disappointed, but if you want America's BIG 4 than you're very safe.

[sgo]

In conclusion, if you want Matchbook for Soccer, unless it's World Cup than you will be disappointed, but if you want America's BIG 4 than you're very safe.

I cannot understand the word "safe" here.... What is safe with a company, who gives itself as only postal address on its 'contact us' page, the owner of wsex, who is very slowly paying ?

You could say "if you want the big 4, you will find other people betting on it on matchbook", but not talk about anything "safe" without any fact on "safety".

[Hareeba!]

I cannot understand the word "safe" here.... What is safe with a company, who gives itself as only postal address on its 'contact us' page, the owner of wsex, who is very slowly paying ?

You could say "if you want the big 4, you will find other people betting on it on matchbook", but not talk about anything "safe" without any fact on "safety".

yeah, that had me scratching my noggin too
sure you will get best odds on the "big 4" at Matchbook
but why is playing them any "safer" than the sports without liquidity?

hey, I'm still playing at Matchbook, so I hope they are safe
nothing in their behaviour to date suggests otherwise but the apparent association with an insolvent business is an ongoing concern

[lukahh]

Very valid point. I don't care who owns Matchbook, all I care if they are profitable.

Here my personal observations as a customer for last 2 years. There is no volume on Soccer, Tennis, GOLF, Horse Racing, CFL, AFL, WNBA, NASCAR and MMA. Period.

Now, if you bet on American BIG 4(NFL,NBA,MLB,NHL) + College FB and Bastketball picture is totally differently. Since Matchbook changed their commision structure in May 2009 (2% comm. from the winner) to the current (1% from client who accepted the bet) I noticed gradual increase in the amounts posted. It's all depends on particular game and if they game is televised. Currently Baseball (MLB) average between 300K-500K with certain exceptions. I estimate that last night Sunday Night Baseball game between New York Mets and Philadelphia Phillies matched more than 1 million because it was only game available to bet.

IMHO, Matchbook stopped advertise because they reached critical mass and the word is now spread from the satisfied customers.

In conclusion, if you want Matchbook for Soccer, unless it's World Cup than you will be disappointed, but if you want America's BIG 4 than you're very safe.

in case they make 2-3k per big4 game, i guess that's enough. sounds sustainable. wsex ownership and credit betting remain the questionmarks, but that's not necessarily terrible - i believe exchange can't survive without market making.

interestingly Blackie is setting up a new exchange - in this light however, i am sceptical about that idea. it can't offer lower comissions than MB, and it won't have the liquidity...

[Odessa]

I cannot understand the word "safe" here.... What is safe with a company, who gives itself as only postal address on its 'contact us' page, the owner of wsex, who is very slowly paying ?

You could say "if you want the big 4, you will find other people betting on it on matchbook", but not talk about anything "safe" without any fact on "safety".

Has there been any safety issues with MB in more than 5 years of operation? Now compare that with Betfair which provides you with 'contact us' address:
5/24/2010 12:50 PM
BETFAIR removes player funds and closes account
A BETFAIR (SBR rating A+) player has filed a sportsbook complaint. On May 4th, the player requested a $150 withdrawal to Web$, however only $120 was sent to his Web$ account. The player states he wrote an e-mail to inquire to BETFAIR about this. At this point, his account was closed. The remaining $150 in his account has not been paid, nor has the player been provided an explanation for the account closure. On May 9th, BETFAIR closed two player accounts alleging fraudulent activity, but did not share its evidence with SBR. BETFAIR often cites its data protection act, and generally limits its discussions regarding player complaints to IBAS - the Independent Betting Adjudication Service that settles UK gambling disputes. SBR has written to BETFAIR to inquire.
5/9/2010 03:16 PM
BETFAIR confiscates two players balances
Two unrelated BETFAIR (SBR rating A+) players have written SBR for dispute assistance. Each player had their balances confiscated by BETFAIR for what was alleged to be fraudulent activity. The first player opened his account in late April, depositing $100 before increasing his balance to $450. Upon requesting a payout, BETFAIR confiscated his $550 balance. The second player deposited $240 in mid-April and increased his balance to $1400. After the player successfully withdrew $590 from BETFAIR, his remaining balance of $1050 was confiscated. SBR is discussing both cases
with BETFAIR.

Now tell me which exchange is "safe"?

[lukahh]

RE Betfair, i guess SBR needs something to keep them off A+ since they don't advertize. In foreseeable future i think using betfair is MUCH safer than Matchbook. but MB liquidity trends look promising.

[Odessa]

RE Betfair: In foreseeable future i think using betfair is MUCH safer than Matchbook.

How you reached this conclusion?

[Hareeba!]

RE Betfair, i guess SBR needs something to keep them off A+ since they don't advertize. In foreseeable future i think using betfair is MUCH safer than Matchbook. but MB liquidity trends look promising.

correct
absolutely no risk at all with Betfair (so long as you're not cheating or doing anything illegal)
I have no concerns about having my largest balance with them

[soxwin1917]

Some of the best discussions on this site are about Matchbook. Very informative thread fellas.

[heyman]

What is safe with a company, who gives itself as only postal address on its 'contact us' page

Who cares.

the owner of wsex, who is very slowly paying

wsex ownership and credit betting remain the questionmarks

Again, no one knows the ownership situation. No one knows the ownership situation for any of the offshore books. It is ALL speculation.
Even if the owners overlap, how does that affect matchbook? The personal finances of the owners and their separate business entity shouldn't be touched (ie- the point of incorporating is to reduce liability) with certain irrelevant and extremely unlikely caveats I listed earlier.

Just like Pinnacle in the early days, there are doubters who think the model will fail. All they can do is just keep on offering the best odds and continue paying everyone.

About the credit: no one knows how much credit is given out at any of the books, yet again, the matchbook detractors like to believe it's only an issue at matchbook. And of course unregulated credit lending is extremely profitable, see for example: thousands of years of recorded history.

You could say "if you want the big 4, you will find other people betting on it on matchbook", but not talk about anything "safe" without any fact on "safety".

They have guaranteed income streams with low costs. That is very relevant.

Now tell me which exchange is "safe"?

Both. But Betfair is ahead of all the offshore's though. They're UK licensed and a member of the gambling commission for disputes.

[hhsilver]

in the long run ..... say you have 100 X $100 bets at evens and win 50 of them so have 50 x $100 wins ($5,000) and 50 X $100 ($5,000) losses.

Matchbook charge you $1 for each bet regardless of the result = $100 which is 2% of your $5,000 wins.

Betfair charge you only on your wins ($5,000) @ between 2% minimum ($100) and 5% maximum ($250)

So, if you reckon Betfair's minimum rate is 2%, then so is Matchbook's (when accepting offers)

sorry you went to all this trouble --- this is a nonsense explanation --- apples and oranges as to your comparison to Betfair.

[Odessa]

Now tell me which exchange is "safe"?

Both. But Betfair is ahead of all the offshore's though. They're UK licensed and a member of the gambling commission for disputes.

Can anybody explain the following:
5/24/2010 12:50 PM
BETFAIR removes player funds and closes account

5/9/2010 03:16 PM
BETFAIR confiscates two players balances

NO!!! There is no explanation!!! All of you choose to ignore it, but keep finding some imaginary problems with MB and it's ownership connection to WSEX.

[Hareeba!]

sorry you went to all this trouble --- this is a nonsense explanation --- apples and oranges as to your comparison to Betfair.

please tell me where I've got it wrong and why it is nonsense?

[Santo]

Od: If those players had serious cases, they have plenty of options to pursue it. Whether they have or not we don't know, because SBR hasn't reported on them. If players had the same problems with Matchbook, they'd have no means to pursue it (beyond SBR, whose opinion is unenforceable).

[Hareeba!]

Can anybody explain the following:
5/24/2010 12:50 PM
BETFAIR removes player funds and closes account

5/9/2010 03:16 PM
BETFAIR confiscates two players balances

NO!!! There is no explanation!!! All of you choose to ignore it, but keep finding some imaginary problems with MB and it's ownership connection to WSEX.

They were either cheating or breaking the law
Betfair would not have just taken their funds but would have passed them over to the appropriate authority

I've been playing there for 8 years and I know many others the same and never had any sort of trouble with Betfair
Always instant free payouts

[Chuck Sims]

Hareeba, How is Betfair's American sports liquidity?

[Odessa]

Od: If those players had serious cases, they have plenty of options to pursue it. Whether they have or not we don't know, because SBR hasn't reported on them.

WRONG!

5/25/2010 06:00 PM
BETFAIR downgraded from A+ to A
5/24/2010 12:50 PM
BETFAIR removes player funds and closes account
A BETFAIR (SBR rating A+) player has filed a sportsbook complaint. On May 4th, the player requested a $150 withdrawal to Web$, however only $120 was sent to his Web$ account. The player states he wrote an e-mail to inquire to BETFAIR about this. At this point, his account was closed. The remaining $150 in his account has not been paid, nor has the player been provided an explanation for the account closure. On May 9th, BETFAIR closed two player accounts alleging fraudulent activity, but did not share its evidence with SBR. BETFAIR often cites its data protection act, and generally limits its discussions regarding player complaints to IBAS - the Independent Betting Adjudication Service that settles UK gambling disputes. SBR has written to BETFAIR to inquire.
5/9/2010 03:16 PM
BETFAIR confiscates two players balances
Two unrelated BETFAIR (SBR rating A+) players have written SBR for dispute assistance. Each player had their balances confiscated by BETFAIR for what was alleged to be fraudulent activity. The first player opened his account in late April, depositing $100 before increasing his balance to $450. Upon requesting a payout, BETFAIR confiscated his $550 balance. The second player deposited $240 in mid-April and increased his balance to $1400. After the player successfully withdrew $590 from BETFAIR, his remaining balance of $1050 was confiscated. SBR is discussing both cases with BETFAIR.

If players had the same problems with Matchbook, they'd have no means to pursue it (beyond SBR, whose opinion is unenforceable).

Trust me, if anything like this happens with MB it would ALL OVER sbr!

[Hareeba!]

Hareeba, How is Betfair's American sports liquidity?

generally not as good as Matchbook's
I rarely find a match at BF for MLB but do get a few NHL but probably that's as much to do with the comm. difference as liquidity
I don't play NFL or NBA - they may be better

[Hareeba!]

WRONG!

5/25/2010 06:00 PM
BETFAIR downgraded from A+ to A
5/24/2010 12:50 PM
BETFAIR removes player funds and closes account
A BETFAIR (SBR rating A+) player has filed a sportsbook complaint. On May 4th, the player requested a $150 withdrawal to Web$, however only $120 was sent to his Web$ account. The player states he wrote an e-mail to inquire to BETFAIR about this. At this point, his account was closed. The remaining $150 in his account has not been paid, nor has the player been provided an explanation for the account closure. On May 9th, BETFAIR closed two player accounts alleging fraudulent activity, but did not share its evidence with SBR. BETFAIR often cites its data protection act, and generally limits its discussions regarding player complaints to IBAS - the Independent Betting Adjudication Service that settles UK gambling disputes. SBR has written to BETFAIR to inquire.
5/9/2010 03:16 PM
BETFAIR confiscates two players balances
Two unrelated BETFAIR (SBR rating A+) players have written SBR for dispute assistance. Each player had their balances confiscated by BETFAIR for what was alleged to be fraudulent activity. The first player opened his account in late April, depositing $100 before increasing his balance to $450. Upon requesting a payout, BETFAIR confiscated his $550 balance. The second player deposited $240 in mid-April and increased his balance to $1400. After the player successfully withdrew $590 from BETFAIR, his remaining balance of $1050 was confiscated. SBR is discussing both cases with BETFAIR.



Trust me, if anything like this happens with MB it would ALL OVER sbr!

Betfair is operating in a very different environment with plenty of regulation to deal with.
Part of which makes it illegal to disclose client information to SBR
Betfair would not under any circumstances compromise their position by not strictly abiding with all laws and regulations as to do so would be detrimental to their chances of expanding into new jurisdictions which they are so keen to do and spending a lot of money in the process.
You can be pretty well certain that when Betfair takes action to close or block a client's account that they have a very strong case against that player's actions.

[Odessa]

Betfair is operating in a very different environment with plenty of regulation to deal with.

OK, but don't they have to disclose reason for their action to the customers in question?

[Santo]

We've had this debate before, and yes they should. There are a few exceptions, where it's part of an ongoing inquiry with a sports body.

[Hareeba!]

OK, but don't they have to disclose reason for their action to the customers in question?

It would be best if they did/could

But in many cases I suspect the suspect knows what he did wrong.

And as Santo says it may be due to an ongoing investigation regarding money laundering or the like and the case may well be out of Betfair's hands by then.

Aggrieved players can always refer their case to IBAS.

[Chuck Sims]

"generally not as good as Matchbook's
I rarely find a match at BF for MLB but do get a few NHL but probably that's as much to do with the comm. difference as liquidity
I don't play NFL or NBA - they may be better"

Thanks for your response Hareeba.

[Hareeba!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hareeba!
in the long run ..... say you have 100 X $100 bets at evens and win 50 of them so have 50 x $100 wins ($5,000) and 50 X $100 ($5,000) losses.

Matchbook charge you $1 for each bet regardless of the result = $100 which is 2% of your $5,000 wins.

Betfair charge you only on your wins ($5,000) @ between 2% minimum ($100) and 5% maximum ($250)

So, if you reckon Betfair's minimum rate is 2%, then so is Matchbook's (when accepting offers)

sorry you went to all this trouble --- this is a nonsense explanation --- apples and oranges as to your comparison to Betfair. Yesterday 06:26 PM

please tell me where I've got it wrong and why it is nonsense?

hhsilver, I really would like to know where I went wrong with this. Please let us know.

[Odessa]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hareeba!
in the long run ..... say you have 100 X $100 bets at evens and win 50 of them so have 50 x $100 wins ($5,000) and 50 X $100 ($5,000) losses.

Matchbook charge you $1 for each bet regardless of the result = $100 which is 2% of your $5,000 wins.

Betfair charge you only on your wins ($5,000) @ between 2% minimum ($100) and 5% maximum ($250)

So, if you reckon Betfair's minimum rate is 2%, then so is Matchbook's (when accepting offers)

sorry you went to all this trouble --- this is a nonsense explanation --- apples and oranges as to your comparison to Betfair. Yesterday 06:26 PM




hhsilver, I really would like to know where I went wrong with this. Please let us know.

At Matchbook, you have to assume that 50% of your offers are accepted by someone else. This will bring your commission down to 1% at Matchbook. In reality, my personal experience with BIG 4 sports shows that my offers get accepted in 80% of the bids.

Also, if my bids get accepted I get paid commission of 0.2%!!! So total commission paid on average is about 0.8% or in your example $40, not $100.

[Hareeba!]

At Matchbook, you have to assume that 50% of your offers are accepted by someone else. This will bring your commission down to 1% at Matchbook. In reality, my personal experience with BIG 4 sports shows that my offers get accepted in 80% of the bids.

Also, if my bids get accepted I get paid commission of 0.2%!!! So total commission paid on average is about 0.8% or in your example $40, not $100.

no argument with that Odessa but it is not what I was posting about and which hhsilver described as "nonsense"

he's failed to respond to my request to explain where I am incorrect so I am assuming he has nfi himself

anyone else care to explain where I am wrong in the response I posted?

[lukahh]

anyone else care to explain where I am wrong in the response I posted?

while it'd be interesting to see alternative look i'm afraid there isn't any, it was just a rant.

...

RE goodwill of Betfair vs Matchbook - i agree we are faced with imperfect info. strange things happen sometimes; for example if you had money invested with some Djubuti or Burkina Faso bank you may still see that money, while someone with Lehman Bros lost it all... who'd believe this 5 years ago?
Having said all that, Betfair simply has vast credibility. It has track record, premium media advertising, profitable model and arrogance to charge all it can to squeeze max profit out. Seriously you don't think multimillion operation would go stiff one guy for couple hundred bucks risking its goodwill? MB on the other hand, doesn't have the goodwill, but it may have a promising model, attractive for punter. I'll probably check them out for new nba / nhl season, but i remain unconvinced for now RE funds safety issue.

[Odessa]

RE goodwill of Betfair vs Matchbook - MB on the other hand, doesn't have the goodwill,

Another empty claim without any justification what so ever! People with tunnel vision convince them self in something they personally believe but can't provide a single valid reason to support their claim. All they see is shiny glitter and flashy icons provided by Betfair and think this must be good! Don't judge a "book" by it's cover.

[Hareeba!]

Another empty claim without any justification what so ever! People with tunnel vision convince them self in something they personally believe but can't provide a single valid reason to support their claim. All they see is shiny glitter and flashy icons provided by Betfair and think this must be good! Don't judge a "book" by it's cover.

never mind the cover, Betair IS the best
Matchbook has a very very very long way to go to even come close

[Odessa]

never mind the cover, Betair IS the best
Matchbook has a very very very long way to go to even come close

True, from 0.8% commission to 5%.