[Chuck Sims]

I repeat

matchbook and wsex both owned by the same company
EURO SPORTS EXCHANGE LIMITED, 11-15 WILLIAM ROAD, LONDON

why should matchbook be safer than matchbook?

anyone?

WSEX does not own Matchbook. Let me say one this more time, WSEX does not own Matchbook. They never have.

[bubba]

chuck, how do you know this? do you have a source? it seams at the very least wsex was a backer of matchbook when they 1st started. do you work for one of these books? i hope you are right, but seriously-whats your source?

[heyman]

The biggest issue with them is they went from being transparent to zip-lipped in terms of company structure.

Ok then.

What information (financials [balance sheet, income and cash flow statements] and ownership) is available about TheGreek, Bookmaker, and Pinnacle then?

[heyman]

matchbook and wsex both owned by the same company

I wrote my opinion in thread I linked above. Matchbook shouldn't be on the hook for any of WSEX's liabilities and Matchbook's assets should be off limits for WSEX's creditors.

As to the actual overlap of the two ownership groups/companies no one really knows. They do have separate management.

WSEX does not own Matchbook. Let me say one this more time, WSEX does not own Matchbook. They never have.

How do you know this?

[heyman]

Excellent post DH as usual
I have been on SBR for 3yrs now(aug.12 2007) and i am sick and tired of these pathetic Betfair or Matchook little SHILLS that have been populate the forum over the past little while.
When ever someone give valid criticism and a cogent appraisal like the one you have posted above these little freaks always end up spread eagle,foaming at the mouth and screaming their bloody heads-off just because you dare to critical think and/or criticize these outfits.Do as i do: just put out your great posts and let the general population read it and ignore these little assh*les,they are not worth your time.
We both love and swear by EXCHANGES they are the only way to go if you are serious about making money in this racket,we both were sadden by the demise of TRADESPORTS and i am sure old chum that you would like nothing more than for Matchbook to be as they where Pryor to 09.
I am hoping with like the dickens that BLACKIE and his boys at REBATEWAGER can get their act together and in the process force matchbook to shape up,because
With a healthy matchbook,pinnacles,bookmaker and the Greek and a strong "blackie exchange" life would be good again.

Have yet to see any valid criticism in your post or from dark horse backing up any of his 'valid' criticism.

[Chuck Sims]

I know this because when Matchbook first opened I spoke with WSEX about transferring a large amount to Matchbook and wanted to know if they were one in the same.

WSEX made it clear from the start, WSEX is separate from Matchbook and did not own or control their operation. "We are helping them get started" I was told. Matchbook was/is sharing the same software.

The fact WSEX has nothing to do with Matchbook's financials still does not alleviate questions how Matchbook makes money by charging a ridiculously low commission.

[Climate]

Healthy debate, no problem.

[Hareeba!]

The fact WSEX has nothing to do with Matchbook's financials still does not alleviate questions how Matchbook makes money by charging a ridiculously low commission.

Is it really so "ridiculously low"?

[lukahh]

commissions are 1% if accepting and -0.1% if making offers if i understand correctly. No?
that's much lower than anywhere.

[Hareeba!]

commissions are 1% if accepting and -0.1% if making offers if i understand correctly. No?
that's much lower than anywhere.

well that's charged win or loss

Betfair charges on wins only and if you are a regular there you could be paying a lot less than the standard 5% comm.

yes, Matchbook works out less than Betair regardless but there are other exchanges which charge less than Betfair

just challenging the "ridiculously" low bit ... it's not really all that much lower for a lot of regular Betfair players because Matchbook's 1% is really 2%+ if you are taking rather than offering odds

[Thremp]

well that's charged win or loss Betfair charges on wins only and if you are a regular there you could be paying a lot less than the standard 5% comm. yes, Matchbook works out less than Betair regardless but there are other exchanges which charge less than Betfair just challenging the "ridiculously" low bit ... it's not really all that much lower for a lot of regular Betfair players because Matchbook's 1% is really 2%+ if you are taking rather than offering odds

lol

[hhsilver]

well that's charged win or loss

Betfair charges on wins only and if you are a regular there you could be paying a lot less than the standard 5% comm.

yes, Matchbook works out less than Betair regardless but there are other exchanges which charge less than Betfair

just challenging the "ridiculously" low bit ... it's not really all that much lower for a lot of regular Betfair players because Matchbook's 1% is really 2%+ if you are taking rather than offering odds

please explain "really 2%+" , how is 1% really 2% is accepting offers ?

[bubba]

for most sports(not baseball, not live betting) matchbook collects .8% of the lesser of risk or win. they take 1% from someone and pay someone else .02%. this gives them a net profit of.8%. for baseball their profit is .7%. for live betting their profit is .3 percent.

[bubba]

chuck- its good to know that they are not just distancing themselves from wsex now that things are bad at wsex. it is scary though. i remember when wsex was considered as safe as any book to put money in. what went wrong?

have there been no pays from wsex or just some very slow pays? its terrible i someone has to wait months to get their money but a HUUUge differnce between a slow pay and a no pay.

[Chuck Sims]

WSEX has gone from slow pay to new deposits will determine payouts. Not good.

I expect some payout reports during September.

[Bill Dozer]

I know this because when Matchbook first opened I spoke with WSEX about transferring a large amount to Matchbook and wanted to know if they were one in the same.

WSEX made it clear from the start, WSEX is separate from Matchbook and did not own or control their operation. "We are helping them get started" I was told. Matchbook was/is sharing the same software.

The fact WSEX has nothing to do with Matchbook's financials still does not alleviate questions how Matchbook makes money by charging a ridiculously low commission.

You'll lose a lot of money betting offshore if you take what the rep tells the client as fact. It's common knowledge offshore that WSEX owns it and ownership has confirmed. Did they take on a private investor since WSEX issues? Could be.

[Hareeba!]

please explain "really 2%+" , how is 1% really 2% is accepting offers ?

in the long run ..... say you have 100 X $100 bets at evens and win 50 of them so have 50 x $100 wins ($5,000) and 50 X $100 ($5,000) losses.

Matchbook charge you $1 for each bet regardless of the result = $100 which is 2% of your $5,000 wins.

Betfair charge you only on your wins ($5,000) @ between 2% minimum ($100) and 5% maximum ($250)

So, if you reckon Betfair's minimum rate is 2%, then so is Matchbook's (when accepting offers)

[Chuck Sims]

Bill, I heard it straight from the WSEX owners. Why would they lie to me and lose a huge deposit? Does'nt make sense.

It was common knowledge that Matchbook was in deep shit a year ago but SBR kept them at a solid A- rating.

Someboby, a large player in the off-shore industry came in and saved Matchbook. Matchbook now has no phone cs. Have to go through e-mail or live chat. What major book also has no phone cs?

Things that make you go Hmmm.

[heyman]

I know this because when Matchbook first opened I spoke with WSEX about transferring a large amount to Matchbook and wanted to know if they were one in the same.

WSEX made it clear from the start, WSEX is separate from Matchbook and did not own or control their operation. "We are helping them get started" I was told. Matchbook was/is sharing the same software.

Bill, I heard it straight from the WSEX owners. Why would they lie to me and lose a huge deposit? Does'nt make sense.

Owners??? Who exactly did you talk to? Own or control their operation - are you talking about their management, as that is known to be separate?

So when matchbook first opened and when WSEX had a great name, WSEX didn't want to see your money leave their operation and didn't lend their reputation out? That's not particularly compelling, especially since many reported hearing the opposite.

It was common knowledge that Matchbook was in deep shit a year ago.

It was a common rumor.

Someboby, a large player in the off-shore industry came in and saved Matchbook.

If you say so.

Matchbook now has no phone cs. Have to go through e-mail or live chat. What major book also has no phone cs?

Things that make you go Hmmm.

Pinnacle.

[heyman]

It's common knowledge offshore that WSEX owns it and ownership has confirmed.

SBR_John said a few years back that WSEX did not own matchbook but probably had a minority stake. WSEX said they were in the same family (shared check processors but separate management and bank accounts). You say they own matchbook.

How do you know this?

When was this known? You use the present tense yet claim they cut off communications. With all the problems WSEX has had, couldn't their share of matchbook's equity have been sold off?

What is this common knowledge offshore? What sources could those be? Rival books? Former employees? Potential financiers? All of them would have motivation to paint matchbook in a poor light. Not to mention the obvious ties this site has. That the sources cannot be named doesn't lend much support to the conclusions they want us to draw.

Did they take on a private investor since WSEX issues? Could be.

So, you don't know their PRESENT condition? Which is it?

[heyman]

I'm going to repost this:

What information (financials [balance sheet, income and cash flow statements] and ownership) is available about TheGreek, Bookmaker, and Pinnacle then?

Ok, I understand that matchbook's ownership situation is murky. The question is how does that differ from the books above (or the 75 or so books that are ranked higher than matchbook)?

[Chuck Sims]

"So when matchbook first opened and when WSEX had a great name, WSEX didn't want to see your money leave their operation and didn't lend their reputation out?"

No, WSEX encouraged players that were beating them to go to Matchbook.

The idea that WSEX would deny ownership from day one just in case MB went belly up, thereby keeping WSEX good name intact does'nt hold because WSEX is now in the toilet.

[Hareeba!]

WSEX does not own Matchbook. Let me say one this more time, WSEX does not own Matchbook. They never have.

that was in response to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike8888
I repeat

matchbook and wsex both owned by the same company
EURO SPORTS EXCHANGE LIMITED, 11-15 WILLIAM ROAD, LONDON

which is not the same thing as saying "WSEX owns Matchbook"

are they both owned by the same entity(ies)?

[sgo]

http://www.wsex.com/about/faq.html states for wsex "This site is owned and operated by EURO SPORTS EXCHANGE LIMITED, 11-15 WILLIAM ROAD, LONDON NW1 3ER, U.K. All financial transaction are processed through EURO SPORTS EXCHANGE LIMITED, 11-15 WILLIAM ROAD, LONDON NW1 3ER, U.K."

http://www.matchbook.com/menu-items/.../ContactUs.jsp givs on the "contact" pages for matchbook "Euro Sports Exchange Ltd. Acre House, 11/15 William Road, NW13ER London, United Kingdom"

while on some places, eg. http://www.jordans.co.uk/CompanyInde...e_limited.html, you can order many reports on EURO SPORTS EXCHANGE LIMITED. If somebody buy such report, and found interresting information in it, I'd be interrested.

I also found some statement that for both company (wsex and matchbook) "Full Financial transaction are Processed through EURO SPORTS EXCHANGE LIMITED, 11-15 WILLIAM ROAD, LONDON NW1 3er, UK" on http://www.bookmakers2u.com/, which would not be a good new...

[CrimsonQueen]

bookmakers2u.com's only 10 rated books are 188bet.com (not rated on SBR) and bet-at-home, rated C- on SBR...

...... ugh.... who can you trust anymore??

Oh, and BetFair, which is rated an A on SBR.

[Chuck Sims]

sgo, You will not get any info on who the secretive owner of Matchbook is from the sportsbooks website. Come on man.

[DIF]

bookmakers2u.com's only 10 rated books are 188bet.com (not rated on SBR) and bet-at-home, rated C- on SBR...

...... ugh.... who can you trust anymore??

Oh, and BetFair, which is rated an A on SBR.

hareeba and Crimson Queen

I try to forget all the sarcastic comments you always get here on this forum. Anyway, you forgot mansion 88.

I have never claimed that SBR is really not doing in their rankings, however, questioned some of their rankings, for example wsex (former A rank), bet on line, former wwts, betcascade and then few more.

And I felt that the SBR was too slow to downgrade wsex and I was not alone. So I do not really know where you want to come?

[Hareeba!]

hareeba and Crimson Queen
So I do not really know where you want to come?

I really don't know who owns who, only that to say WSEX doesn't own Matchbook when considered in the light of the information in sgo's last post doesn't really mean much.

If that data is up to date, then there does appear to be a strong link between the two of them and most probably a good degree of common ownership. If so it does raise some concerns about financial viability, if, as it seems, WSEX is insolvent.

yes, a lot of 'ifs' and no answers so caution does appear to be warranted

[heyman]

If that data is up to date, then there does appear to be a strong link between the two of them and most probably a good degree of common ownership. If so it does raise some concerns about financial viability, if, as it seems, WSEX is insolvent.

yes, a lot of 'ifs' and no answers so caution does appear to be warranted

Or, it's a PO Box for tax, legal, or banking purposes. They don't appear on any list of tenants on a google search (which doesn't mean anything either way).

But is this supposed to prove they share an office? I thought it was pretty well established that they have separate operations/management yet share/shared some functions like check processing. I'm not sure what it's supposed to tell us about the ownership.

[heyman]

"So when matchbook first opened and when WSEX had a great name, WSEX didn't want to see your money leave their operation and didn't lend their reputation out?"

No, WSEX encouraged players that were beating them to go to Matchbook.

The idea that WSEX would deny ownership from day one just in case MB went belly up, thereby keeping WSEX good name intact does'nt hold because WSEX is now in the toilet.

If WSEX said matchbook is 100% backed by us then people would take their money to matchbook. In this case WSEX ownership wouldn't lose any customers but WSEX management would. WSEX management would have incentive to mislead/lie to their customers.

If WSEX owned 0% of matchbook then they'd be telling the truth.

Your phone call doesn't prove anything either way. Same with SBR. I'm unconvinced due to the lack of information for both and incentives for the principals in these two sides.

Chuck: I agree with you overall position that matchbook can be trusted, but I get there differently perhaps. It's not that matchbook is extremely trustworthy, it just trustworthy in relation to the best in this industry. Not to mention the best odds (for US major sports).

My personal opinion is that owners of WSEX and owners of matchbook overlap more than 0% interest and less then 100% interest. Either way, matchbook shouldn't have any legal liability for WSEX. All actual facts show matchbook to be solid: never had any payout problems, transfer quickly to the top-rated books, have a steady stream of income with very low overhead costs. The amount of information that we don't have on matchbook is equal to the information we don't have on the other top A books. There is no reason not to trust matchbook with high balances unless you also don't trust TheGreek, Cris, and Pinnacle.
I reserve the right to change my mind but someone needs to make a case based in reason, not speculation - and it will be the first.

[heyman]

in the long run ..... say you have 100 X $100 bets at evens and win 50 of them so have 50 x $100 wins ($5,000) and 50 X $100 ($5,000) losses.

Matchbook charge you $1 for each bet regardless of the result = $100 which is 2% of your $5,000 wins.

Betfair charge you only on your wins ($5,000) @ between 2% minimum ($100) and 5% maximum ($250)

So, if you reckon Betfair's minimum rate is 2%, then so is Matchbook's (when accepting offers)

So if you're on the peak of the betfair commission curve and only accept matchbook offers and only play non-MLB sports at matchbook and aren't a professional* then they're equal? I think that says more about matchbook then you think it does about Betfair. Actually, I'd like to state that you're one of the best posters here Hareeba and betfair is in fact quite a book, but their fees/commissions are significantly worse.

*presumably as a professional you win more then you lose and will pay betfair's commission more than 50% of the time.

[Dark Horse]

Hypothesis.

What if WSEX saw its problems coming and decided to set up a separate operation - Matchbook - long before the world would find out? This would allow the people behind the scenes to stay near the top of the offshore industry, while washing their hands off the WSEX failure. The only 'requirement' would be to severe all ties, at least publicly, with WSEX.

Put differently. Was it a pure coincidence that an A rated sportsbook that was about to follow Cascade down the rabbit hole, branched off into an exchange just in time to not arouse suspicion?

[BigDaddy]

Hypothesis.

What if WSEX saw its problems coming and decided to set up a separate operation - Matchbook - long before the world would find out? This would allow the people behind the scenes to stay near the top of the offshore industry, while washing their hands off the WSEX failure. The only 'requirement' would be to severe all ties, at least publicly, with WSEX.

Put differently. Was it a pure coincidence that an A rated sportsbook that was about to follow Cascade down the rabbit hole, branched off into an exchange just in time to not arouse suspicion?

good points.


its hard for me to trust matchbook like i do the greek and bookmaker for the simple reason of their relationship with WSEX.

[Hareeba!]

So if you're on the peak of the betfair commission curve and only accept matchbook offers and only play non-MLB sports at matchbook and aren't a professional* then they're equal? I think that says more about matchbook then you think it does about Betfair. Actually, I'd like to state that you're one of the best posters here Hareeba and betfair is in fact quite a book, but their fees/commissions are significantly worse.

*presumably as a professional you win more then you lose and will pay betfair's commission more than 50% of the time.

I certainly concede that Betfair's commission structure is more costly than Matchbook's but what I was attempting to point out was that it's not quite as expensive as some might suggest by comparing the "headline" rates of 1% Matchbook and 5% Betfair.

Comparing "apples with apples" Matchbook's rate of 1% is pretty well equivalent to 2% at Betfair.

I think it's generally accepted that most (about 98% ?) of players lose. Therefore Matchbook by charging commission on losing bets is also relatively less cheap as compared with Betfair which charges only when you win.

And of course most regular players would be getting some discount off Betfair's top rate of 5%.

[Dark Horse]

Continuing with hypothesis.

Would that not also shed a different light on allowing large credit players, which SBR John has reported they have? What if the intent never was to be a pure exchange? As Bill Dozer mentioned earlier in this thread, that credit angle effectively makes them a sportsbook (again...).

The art of shape shifting?

JC used to share his insights, but even he is silent these days. Will Matchbook speak up when it realizes that public silence is no longer in its best interest? Far too many questions for me to be comfortable there.