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But that is what makes the exchange the exchange. Bad prices get weeded out quickly and the market price prevails. Smarkets is just butt hurt because they were the ones laying. They should have been more vigilant and not let their bot go rogue for more than a few hours. They fell asleep at the wheel and now want someone else to pay the price.Originally Posted by Optional
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This post was nominated 1
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If you trade full time betfair or any other exchange (forex itd.) you have an edge over the market. That edge earns you money. You earn money by knowing where are odds too low and where are too high. Or in other words, knowing where are ERRORS in the market.
In my opinion, your post is really stupid. And the thing that you should have a lot of experience after at least 5.5 years and 23 742 posts makes this really bad. Sometimes when I read posts like yours on forums like SBR i really get concerned because I ask myself who really cares about the customers and their rights and who is here to make money from affiliates and stuff.
If you own an exchange and earn commission from bets you should not trade your own markets. This is just retarded because every time you lose you can just void the bet. Not to mention that if you put the money in the market its your thing where you put it.
In a good world this would be illegal but we will see what happens with this case. I hope he gets his money
Best post so far !
I think you are probably right, otherwise I would have expected Smarkets would have told both the OP and SBR that there was a clear bad faith betting pattern straight away.
Let's see what the regulator thinks.
The betting exchanges has to protect themselves somehow. What if a glitch in the system made a bot go crazy and the OP didnt just green out 33k but 5 million. Should he then also have been paid?
As I have shown earlier in this thread Betfair have also cancelled bets when a bot went rogue. And matchbook has similar rules in place:
- In the rare case that a market is loaded on the exchange using a pointspread or handicap value with a reversed sign or missing digit, Matchbook reserves the right to void the market and refund all trades. For example, if the prevailing market for Chicago vs. Washington is Chicago +9.0 and the Matchbook market is accidentally loaded at Chicago -9.0, Matchbook would void trades placed on this market. The purpose would be to protect players who wagered on the market assuming that the pointspread was Chicago +9.0.
- To further protect clients against "trap offers," malicious users, technical faults, and so forth, Matchbook reserves the right under extraordinary circumstances to break trades that are the result of an obvious and extreme input error. An example would be if a client is matched on a heavy underdog at 1-25 odds instead of 25-1 odds. Note that this rule protects against technical errors, not pricing errors, so while a match at odds of -150 vs. a prevailing market value of -115 may be regrettable, it could not be classed as an obvious and extreme input error. No claims will be considered after the start of an event or for trades that take place in running (i.e., during live trading). All claims must be made within an hour of the trade in question. For consistency, Matchbook, using all available resources, will determine the fair market value (probability) at the time the bet was matched. Comparing against this value, if the probability of the incorrect offer, is 10% less than, or 10% greater than, the fair market probability, then Matchbook reserves the right to void the trade in question.
If the betting exchanges didnt have the possibility to protect themselves from technical glitches the same way sportsbooks can then it would not be safe to play at exchanges.
the point is, the bug was theirs, not users. and if it's true what he said, that he placed bets hours, even days before the event started, the bug was pretty severe. in fact, how do you know they fixed it? you could find any arb and never be sure whether it really is an arb or their bots mistake.
if they decided to have bots to trade their own money and their bot made a mistake
then hiding behind half illegal TOS waiting for a lawsuit in a tax heaven country where the laws are shady as hell is hypocritical at best.
smarkets is definitely in the wrong here and they haven't even proven the user did anything wrong.
it was their mistake
plain and simple
an d letting others pay for your mistakes is not good for business
but the owners probably already made millions so why would they care, i wouldn't.
So matchbook can void my bet if one of the bots too slow and offering price 4.5 while on other sites the price already 4, because the difference is more than 10% .
Or 2.2 vs 1.97 ?
bookies hiding behind half ilegal tos, what else is new
Pareto - We must separate technical errors and betting errors. In my case there were no technical errors in the market at all. It was definately betting mistake typ of error.
Imagine the situation you want put draw order on back side priced 1.4 to set up trap odds. But you put this order on the lay side in the market.
Do you really believe my bets would be voided if I made this kind of error? Even if liability of these bets were 33k?
The true is that market makers would match my order in seconds. I would request voiding bets but would get an answer that I accepted their T&C and my bets couldn't be voided. Market maker is happy because he is in value position. Smarkets is happy because they get a nice commision. And all what is left for me it's just to cry.
And now the opposite situation. Market maker put wrong order in the market. I'm in value position(in my case I was) but smarkets doesn't want to be happy because of earned commision and market maker doesn't accept they need to cry. I don't see any justice here.
I'm not able to find these similar rules in Smarkets' T&C. Please quote them but I'm affraid they don't exist.And matchbook has similar rules in place:
Totally agree with you. It's not possible to know if it's Johny's from London or market maker's money?
In addition, Few days back I again spotted one market with the same error and few k liablilitiies. Orders were matched in seconds. I have no idea if Smarkets voided them.
i hate bookies man
mafia, who hides behind some TOS which is illegal in most of the world except those few tax heavens where they are headquartered in. and no court in malta will ever rule in your favor, ever, even if you are right.
what is the bug? tell us, let's all exploit it for a few million and then sue their asses somewhere and get them out of business
i had a similar issue with fairlay last month.
Fairlay calls itself as an exchange, but I think fairlay itself one of the marketmakers if not the only one.
Fairlay marketmaker copies pinnacle odds/lines, but there was a glitch on pinnacle side, the market maker copied the wrong odds I placed my bet and fairlay voided it, because market maker would not be happy , marketmaker was fairlay itself and as i said earlier these so called exchanges wont let you to go away with their money if there is bug in their system and you exploited it.
(Marketmaker has an automated system and i also have, it is not my app responsibility to notice market/odds erros and let them to other bettors/systems to exploit , it could be a typo by a simple user, swapped odds, etc., so you never know)
They will never admit that they are also marketmakers on their own platform.
So you could never know on the other side there is a marketmaker or a simple user like you.
If your bet was a winner then it was a marketmaker/the exchange itself (void) , but if your bet was lost then it was a simple user (bet settled as lost)
Last edited by dpeti; 03-30-16 at 05:39 AM.
Even if it is a bug I have no idea what kind of bug it is. For me they were just wrong priced orders which I saw on random markets.what is the bug?
but you needed to compare these odds to see they were wrongly priced... what bookie did you check them against?
No, in that case they cant void it. They write in their rules that a -150 bet on a -115 fair line would not be voided. But it is hard to read how large an error it has to be before its a bad line. But I doubt they would void any steam bets no matter how +EV they were.
I'm not able to find these similar rules in Smarkets' T&C. Please quote them but I'm affraid they don't exist.
Smarkets has the following rule:
2. We reserve the right to void any bet for any reason before or after the event has occurred. This may be due to fraud, technical error or settlement error.
They reserve the right to void any bet for ANY REASON. So they could void it just because they feel like it.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/201...ler-la-vedette
This was result of cross matching bug as I have read, you can find the reason online. Smarkets does not have that. Betfair said what was going on right after. Smarket says that he did not place bets with good faith?! Do you understand what I am saying. The case and the approach is different! Smarkets waited days to void the bets and I am not defending betfair or anything, they are slowly dying because of their greed but that is another issue.
If you see draw priced under 2.0 odds on lay side in the market you will need no bookie to compare. You just know it's valuebet.
And I'm almost sure there were no problem with Pinnacle odds at those moments. I would exclude theat problem was caused by copying Pinnacle odds.
It's not even close to Matchbook' rule. There is nothing written about wrong price.
Please look at the word "ANY". Most bookmakers have a word "without" in this place. Smarkets is obliged to provide some reasons and I doubt that "feeling like it" would be enough. Their reasons weren't good enough for me and that's why I decided to write about my case.
If it was so easy, they would put a statement here :"we feel like it. Case resolved". Fortunatelly it is not.
Last edited by lukaszs; 03-30-16 at 06:17 AM.
I am not defending Smarkets. I am just saying that other exchanges will also void bad prices in some instances. Whether or not that is a good thing is a matter of opinion.
They gave you the reason. They said the price was wrong. According to their own rules thats all they need. But yeah, maybe their own rules are a bit shady, and they should be more specific.
If they paid 1k or even 1$ they should pay 5 milion as well. Off course only when circumstances are the same in both situations. Sum of winnings cannot determine exchange's actions.The betting exchanges has to protect themselves somehow. What if a glitch in the system made a bot go crazy and the OP didnt just green out 33k but 5 million. Should he then also have been paid?
In my case bets from 10th of March were settled and these from 19th of March were voided. IMO circumstances were the same (the same kind of error) but actions were different. That is next reason why I couln't accept Smarkets' expanations (They just feel they were significant difference between both situation) without details.
The same T&C says that Smarkets will not be held responsible for any mistakes including price or side of the bet (look at the rule 25 or my first post). They gave me a reason which is against theirs own rules. In addtition Smarkets tolerates the same wrong prices which market makers put into the market.They gave you the reason. They said the price was wrong. According to their own rules thats all they need
Last edited by lukaszs; 03-30-16 at 06:52 AM.
Place is garbage period
No liquidity
Horrific software from the 80's
I filled in the complaints form on MGA website. I got auto response that typically a complaint case takes between 3 to 4 weeks to be concluded. we'll see how MGA judge my case.
Last edited by lukaszs; 04-01-16 at 08:13 AM.
I doubt MGA will rule in favour of a player even in a blatantly obvious case like this. It's an uneven playing field to start with then you have to deal with organisations such as the "MGA"..
I have a feeling the only way you'll see your money is via legal action against them. How much would that cost? I'm not sure. Would you be successful? Probably, if it was approached in the correct manner
Law was invented to cover up justice so I would not count on that. This is just the world we live in...
Smarkets support!
I`m sure you read this thread.
What is your final answer? You are using a policy of double standards.
I wish you what most of your clients read this thread and accept right decision to deal with you!
Hi guys,
I just got a MGA response. As most of you expected (I expected this as well) MGA complaint changed nothing in my case.
Smarkets' arguments were standard ones: obvious error, price out of the market boundaries and T&C signed by me. My case prooves that rules are not rules for every Smarkets' client.
But one argument is interesting:
Smarkets claim that on 19th March they had system error (!!!!) and resulted incorrect prices displayed. I really don't know what and whose system error it was. If VIP client's betting mistake = system error then it's truth. I was trading just after these "system" errors and my orders (priced in market boundaries) were matched in standard mode.
I'm dissapointed that MGA haven't looked further in my case.My arguments was like: Smarkets was acting against their own rules, only some VIP client(s) have a right to cancel bets, double standards, Smarkets are full of betting markets with orders priced much more outside market boundaries than in my case and it's allowed when market makers are beneficiaries, but standard client hasn't got any chance to cancel bets. But it sounds like all this stuff mean nothing to MGA.
Smarkets refused to comment my case here and otherforum. It's really dissapointing. They chose silence because they knew exactly what was betting community's reaction. I thought that reputation was priceless but now it seems we know how much it's worth.
Unfortunatelly we never know whose money we take from the market. Smarkets doesn't act as a betting exchange from time to time. It would be fair enough to see some rule in theirs T&C like:
By taking money from our privileged client you are aware that your bets could be voided.
Considering their own rules state trades cannot be broken under any circumstances, they should be classed as a rogue operator with immediate effect.
F AVOID AT ALL COSTS
you took a shot, didn't lose anything.
smarkets is a useful exchange to have with only 2% comm.
what a clueless tool
I didn't loose anything (except time, effort and nerves) and this is the only bright part of this story. Low commision is useless if you cant' be sure your bets stand.
Smarkets is arbitrage oriented company. I was close to hedge my bets somewhere else (asian bookie) Asian part would be lost and smarkets part would be voided. 10-15k lost in this case. I definatelly can't say that nothing happened.
Last edited by lukaszs; 04-15-16 at 08:25 AM.
I agree completely ! But I do not think that will happen. Because people that run forums like this one get their money from banners and affiliate links. You get money from affiliate links when people LOSE money. For example, there are 1000 people that made an account at bet365 and made an overall loss of 10k€. You get I think 30% of their overall loss so you would earn 3k€.
On exchanges you get a percentage of commission paid so it is a must to have a good rating because no arber or trader will trade there when they have betdaq with 2% commission and betfair for traders with a lot of liq. You just risk people moving to the other exchange with some other affiliate.
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