[Rodo1982]

This is my first post here for a mild incident I had yesterday with Pinnacle Sports which refuses to pay my winnings in a tennis game between Victor Troicki and Samuel Groth. The story runs as follows:

• As a professional trader I opened a position with Betfair up to the amount of 3000 euros (Liability 2600). As many times has already happened my betfair bet which was closing my trade was absorbed in very slow pace and therefore I was online in four different bookmakers in order to place a Back bet and close my position before the game start. One of those bookmakers was Pinnacle Sports which finally accepted my bet.
• The game was about to start at 8 pm but was rescheduled due to rain for 7.40 in another pitch. All companies changed their system besides Pinnacle Sports which probably was not aware of this issue. Finally the game started at 7.40
• When the chair umpire called ‘’Time’’ and the two players went to their chairs, SECONDS before the first serve, I covered my open position in pinnacle sports with a ‘’to win’’ bet up to 2600 euros which was closing my trade (I was endorsing a loss in the event that Sam Groth was winning the match). My bet was placed at 7:40:53, which can clearly make everyone understand that it was exactly at the moment that players were preparing for the first serve.
• Seven minutes later Pinnacle Sports CANCELLED my bet by claiming that the bet was placed after the start of the game. I only found it out a couple of hours later when the match had already concluded.
• First of all I was perfectly ‘’in’’ the match so as to monitor any advancements, the correct start time etc, because the money were big and when trading tennis, odds can change very rapidly so I always have to close my positions before the first serve. As said, seconds before the first serve I closed my bet by placing the bet in pinnacle sports.
• When I found out that my bet was cancelled, pinnacle sports claimed that the match started at 7.38 (!!!!) and therefore my bet was not legitimate. This is obviously falsified since I was online and monitor the match and in addition all the sites show as start time 7.40 pm. Whoever watches tennis, knows that at this moment the chair umpire calls ‘’time’’ and the two players go to their chairs to set-up before step to the service line for the begin of the match. So Pinnacle’s argument that the match started BEFORE the official time is highly inlegitimate and mistaken which is purposeful just to avoid paying my winnings.
• In SEVERAL respects, especially in NBA matches, the official start time is let’s say at 2.05 but the match starts ten or fifteen minutes later. The same happens to football matches, if for example fireworks make the atmosphere dizzy etc etc… In this timespace pinnacle accepts normally all bets and I have placed some thousands without EVER having one of them cancelled. If Pinnacle declares that any bet placed upon the official start of certain events, then it has to refund me some big cash back, especially for NBA games…
• One more supporting fact is that Groth won easily the first game of the match, which shows that upon the match start, Troicki’s odds were constantly increasing so I would have no incentive to place a Back bet at 1,82 since they were at 1,93 in Betfair. This fact justifies that my bet was placed pregame.
• I was online and watching the game whilst Pinnacle Sports’ linesman was surely away. Therefore his decision to cancel my bet is arbitrary and I cannot tolerate such a big loss for THEIR mistake. I tried to resolve the issue with Pinnacle Sports, I claimed my long custom to them and of course the logical arguments I am exposing here. They insisted not to pay my winnings. Therefore I need your contribution to effectively get paid what I am owed.

[Rodo1982]

I am experienced trader i have played thousands of those games and know well how to act. All tennis games start some minutes after the official time which is announced, even if i was not online, i would be extremely doubtful in the event that someone was arguing that the game started two minutes EARLIER than the official time. For example in the game that happens now between Nadal and Monfils, the official time that is about to start is 14.40, it is 14,41 and the chair umpire just called three minutes. The game will start at 14.45 and pinnacle sports although it says in its timeline that the line will close at 14.40 it STILL accepts bets....Maybe if i will place a bet right now, at 14.43, it will be cancelled some time later by claiming that i placed it after 14.40 which the game started...This is an awkward behavior from Pinnacle Sports.

[Optional]

I can't see why Pinny would cancel the bet just 7 minutes into the match with the odds moving against you unless they truly believed the match had started before it was struck.

I think they use an incident feed provider for exact times.

[Rodo1982]

As said and can easily figured out, Groth hold easily the first game (you can use Tennis trader by Betangel to ascertain that odds climbed up to 1,93). If i would have left the game to go in-play and watched the first points, then i would have easily covered the bet to Betfair for a significant profit (everyone can understand how profitable would be a trade with a Lay bet @ 1,82 and a back bet @ 1,93). Whatever they use it is incorrect, i was online and watched the game, i know that i placed my bet pregame. Their linesman was offline and simple cancelled my bet. As said my bet was placed at 7.40.53. Everyone can understand that my bet was pregame. I will also inform LGA to ensure that i will get paid promptly. This is an awkward behavior from an A+ rated bookmaker.

[tomallen123]

This is why arbing sucks

[HeeeHAWWWW]

This is obviously falsified since I was online and monitor the match and in addition all the sites show as start time 7.40 pm.

Those are rounded to 5 minutes, unfortunately.

From my price scrapers, it looks like Pinnacle left the match open until 7:48pm (your timezone), as there were price shifts until then:

7:12pm 1.820 2.130
7:42pm 1.794 2.160
7:45pm 1.787 2.170
7:48pm 1.787 2.170

These are all still at pre-match juice - ie 2%, versus live of near 4%. However, oddsportal shows the last pre-match shift as 7:42, you can see that hovering over pinnacle at....
http://www.oddsportal.com/tennis/ger...muel-jqKnQkzq/

That's probably your best argument, because oddsportal is linked to live scores, and stops recording price moves the instant any score comes up (ie they haven't included the 7:45 and 7:48 changes). In other words, oddsportal is saying the first point was recorded at or after 7:42pm.

[Rodo1982]

Many thanks for your contribution, i was not aware of such a function! But it surely is on spot! Because i was online and see every development of this match to close my position on time. I have done this job in thousands of events so i know how to act step by step. Pinnacle indeed closed the match at 7.48 and cancelled all bets taken from 7.39 onwards. I repeat that i placed my bet at 7.40.53, well before of 7.42 you claim as the start of the match which perfectly suits to my own arguments. And to logic of course which says that a tennis game announced to start at 7.40 cannot start at 7.38, but rather at 7.42!!! If i had seen the first points of the game as Pinnacle claims, i would have simply backed Troicki on Betfair for a far greater price

e.g. (Screenshots are available for both my Pinnacle and Betfair accounts)

Those are rounded to 5 minutes, unfortunately.

From my price scrapers, it looks like Pinnacle left the match open until 7:48pm (your timezone), as there were price shifts until then:

7:12pm 1.820 2.130
7:42pm 1.794 2.160
7:45pm 1.787 2.170
7:48pm 1.787 2.170

These are all still at pre-match juice - ie 2%, versus live of near 4%. However, oddsportal shows the last pre-match shift as 7:42, you can see that hovering over pinnacle at....
http://www.oddsportal.com/tennis/ger...muel-jqKnQkzq/

That's probably your best argument, because oddsportal is linked to live scores, and stops recording price moves the instant any score comes up (ie they haven't included the 7:45 and 7:48 changes)

[SBR Forum]

Pinnacle Sports mgmt is reviewing the player's complaint. Thank you for your feedback.

[Martinr]

This is why arbing sucks

Trading on pre-game odds and arbing are two different things. Similar, but different.
For instance, a trader will take a loss (if the odds move against him) on occasions, as part and parcel of the game, while an arber would probably not be getting involved in a market unless he was guaranteed a profit.
Also, a trader will usually only be involved with one side of the bet, laying and backing the same player. (Backing at 1.82, Laying at 1.78 for instance).
An arber is usually backing both sides (say 1.54 Player A, 3.05 Player B)

I'm thinking Pinnacle will probably do the right thing here and pay the player. He seems to have good evidence in support. It's a good reminder of the importance of keeping screenshots and all info pertaining to the bet.

[jjgold]

Kid has a legit claim here

He does not seem like he was taking any shots

[dealer wins]

When Pinnacle leave a line up, they go back and cancel bets well before the actual start time of the match (In any sport not just tennis)

I have had boxing, darts, soccer bets cancelled even though I know they were placed well before start of play.

Funny but I mistakenly placed a bet on a boxing match that had already started by about 2 minutes, then quickly placed a cover bet on the other fighter realising I had "past posted" They only voided the winning bet which was placed 2 minutes AFTER the losing bet was placed.

An email got my losing bet voided as well, but it shows they will F you like an F rated book if they can!

So Pinny arnt total saints I have proved that LOL

[rockmvp1209]

Just play with betdsi . They are top notch

[SBR Forum]

Pinnacle's data as well as the ATP itself indicates this match began minimum 58 seconds prior to when the player placed his wager. The player's put forth an OddsPortal line history link as suggested by another member, which is not a verifiable indicator that the game had not started, and in fact, would continue to update with past-posted wagers as it's an XML feed.

Unrelated entirely to his forum complaint here or the process via e-mail, the user's forum posting was restricted due to having a second active account redeeming points with SBR.

Tennis wagering, racebook wagering, even in-play wagering are prone to occasional disagreements over time. There is no verifiable source we have been able to find that would contradict Pinnacle's grading If there is conclusive proof that the bet was graded incorrectly, please do share, but the book graded the market as they would any.

[rockmvp1209]

Just play at betdsi, you won't have this issue. Problem solved

[Grivas_Digeni]

When Pinnacle leave a line up, they go back and cancel bets well before the actual start time of the match (In any sport not just tennis)

I have had boxing, darts, soccer bets cancelled even though I know they were placed well before start of play.

Funny but I mistakenly placed a bet on a boxing match that had already started by about 2 minutes, then quickly placed a cover bet on the other fighter realising I had "past posted" They only voided the winning bet which was placed 2 minutes AFTER the losing bet was placed.

An email got my losing bet voided as well, but it shows they will F you like an F rated book if they can!

So Pinny arnt total saints I have proved that LOL

did yyou talk about it with manager?

[rockmvp1209]

Guys like I said before. Plain and simple . Leave pinnacle and go with betdsi. Never have this issue. Problem solved

[Hareeba!]

Guys like I said before. Plain and simple . Leave pinnacle and go with betdsi. Never have this issue. Problem solved

Dumb post.
The guy's a trader!
He has to bet where the odds are best.

[rockmvp1209]

@hareeba whats a trader? not familiar with that term lol

[Optional]

Guys like I said before. Plain and simple . Leave pinnacle and go with betdsi. Never have this issue. Problem solved

What issue? That they graded the bet correctly and the player was mistaken?

DSI is great but not really in competition with Pinny for anyone wanting to arb or trade.

[Grivas_Digeni]

is this what pinnacle said player was mistaken and can't get paid?

[Optional]

is this what pinnacle said player was mistaken and can't get paid?

That's how I read SBR Forum's post about it...

Pinnacle's data as well as the ATP itself indicates this match began minimum 58 seconds prior to when the player placed his wager. The player's put forth an OddsPortal line history link as suggested by another member, which is not a verifiable indicator that the game had not started, and in fact, would continue to update with past-posted wagers as it's an XML feed.

Unrelated entirely to his forum complaint here or the process via e-mail, the user's forum posting was restricted due to having a second active account redeeming points with SBR.

Tennis wagering, racebook wagering, even in-play wagering are prone to occasional disagreements over time. There is no verifiable source we have been able to find that would contradict Pinnacle's grading If there is conclusive proof that the bet was graded incorrectly, please do share, but the book graded the market as they would any.

[evo34]

Jesus. Short summary: dude tries to time a tennis match by seconds, and gets screwed by a book.

Lesson: don't try to time tennis matches by seconds if you don't want to get screwed.

[dealer wins]

Evo you would expect an A rated book to know what time events actually start and not void legit bets placed before start time.

[shaunovery]

Always bet before advertised off time

[HeeeHAWWWW]

Evo you would expect an A rated book to know what time events actually start and not void legit bets placed before start time.

Probably because this was rescheduled due to rain. Then there isn't any formal start time, especially if a non-TV court - the match will just appears on scoreboards with no real advance warning, apparently triggered by when the umpire hits the button on his tablet. Perhaps that gets delayed, perhaps the umpire forgets to hit the match start button, who knows. That, incidentally, would also cause oddsportal to delay taking the market down until the first point appears, which would explain a minute or two difference (although with Groth serving on grass, long points are very unlikely).

At the end of the day, it wasn't like Pinnacle voided to their advantage, it was a few minutes later.


Edit: just had a thought, a possible per-second source of scoring out there would be Betfair logs. Not my area, but I know they exist.

[Hareeba!]

Always bet before advertised off time

I'm guessing you don't bet on tennis?
Other than first up matches on each court (and even they are subject to rain delay) there really is no "advertised off time" as nobody knows how long the earlier matches are going to go.

[shaunovery]

I'm guessing you don't bet on tennis?
Other than first up matches on each court (and even they are subject to rain delay) there really is no "advertised off time" as nobody knows how long the earlier matches are going to go.

That's correct but why run the risk of a dispute of this nature just for a few seconds

[satana]

Just play at betdsi, you won't have this issue. Problem solved

Guys like I said before. Plain and simple . Leave pinnacle and go with betdsi. Never have this issue. Problem solved

Just play with betdsi . They are top notch

how is this spam even allowed?

As for the accident I'm not surprised at all to hear pinna F'ed the user big time, they have a history of letting tennis matches open way past the start time so it's always going to be trouble for the fella who's a bet second before first ball is hit, even though op here had actually minutes on his side.

[RedDevil1974]

I'm guessing you don't bet on tennis?
Other than first up matches on each court (and even they are subject to rain delay) there really is no "advertised off time" as nobody knows how long the earlier matches are going to go.

then the oiriginal point stands correct, if you have no definite start time then you or whoever is a fool for trying to penny pinch/wait until seconds before it kicks off. if there has been no v recent lumpy changes to the price then just get on instead of waiting.

[RedDevil1974]

That's correct but why run the risk of a dispute of this nature just for a few seconds

You are correct here, regardless of what the pros *coughs* say on here.