[teaz2win]

1. Many of the players were sharp and some of the balances were really high. The they will lose it and reload mentality does not apply to many of those bettors. As far as the recreational bettors that would have gotten bailed out I agree many would have just reloaded but the truth is they would have reloaded where they got the best deal. Thats how they ended up at betislands in the first place. If they were not shopping for bonuses and perks they would have been at 5dimes DSI bookmaker etc etc .

2. 1.5 million might not be a huge number for an industry but for a single shop it certainly is a huge number. How would the industry collectively bail out a book? Who gets the client list? Who gets the squares? Do the big shops pay a higher percentage? Doesnt this just encourage people to bet as weaker books with big bonuses if there is a savior down the road if the book closes? Everyone is saying offshore for US is weaker then it ever was, dozens if not hundreds of books have folded before with no bailout, why should BI clients be saved? Goodwill is a very minor factor in the gambling world, on both sides of the ledger. It just is what it is. No one is going to turn down a bonus or a 1/2 point from a book they know is solid because they have loyalty to a book that has no bonuses or perks.

Very Good Post James. Spot on!!

[touchback]

This thread turned out too have some great content... Insider, Jefferies... and the rest of you guys that are contributing real content good job. My 2 cents.... The world economy as a whole as well as a more vigorous and effective methodology (after much time by certain agencies with the trial and error of actually learning things to make an effect outside of sovereign borders, by targeting finances within its borders) has had a major affect on the offshore industry facing North America. This means in the last 5 years all of the tons of liquid funds controlled or amassed by rather unintelligent people up North has evaporated and they no longer have those giant piggy banks they can just dip into and throw money at for entertainment purposes. This means less entertainment available funds period. Vegas has felt the squeeze... gone are the masses of gamers and whole families on vacation with the kids flying into Vegas being entertained and the parents playing craps, the senior citizens have to decide between paying for medical and day to day living needs as all their investments went belly up such as the equity in any of their real estate and increasing medical costs. Also those that had no problem throwing a hundro with buddies on a weekend game and their favorite team or joining the office pool that kept getting bigger and bigger each year who were easily converted into offshore players and had no problem sending a nickel every time they busted out trying to learn how to be a real pro or just did not mind for the entertainment value. This easy/stupid money is what jump started many brands as well as keeping poorly or badly run ones in the black. The competition got fierce as of 2005 and more and more books had to offer more perks or bonuses to get or keep customers, new services had to offer the world to acquire a new customer to get them on their sheet. This compounded itself year after year and lets not forget the straight up hustles. Wherever there is a dollar to be made the jackals show up. This was sustainable until the trickel down effect really wiped out what was once known as the middle class which no longer and never will exist again as we once knew it. It is all gone and it is not coming back and those once sustainable sales and marketing programs that were used by offshore books from 2005 to 2010 are no longer sustainable. The liquid that never left the system is the sharp or wise money which by its nature will not leave unless thrown out. These are PROs and wager as a means for personal income to live off of... they do their research and place their wagers which have an overall better than 50% chance of winning and now make up a higher percentage in an average houses handle unlike in previous years. When you add in any perks/big bonuses the percentage goes up and keep in mind transfers in and out have also increased in cost dramatically also including the loss of transfers for whatever reason so those still using this perk/bonus business model is in a long term losing situation. The recreational guys left and are technically high percentage losers but when you cover all their fees and throw them a 100% bonus they are now a higher winning percentage just because the old volume of stupid money is no longer available to offset their winning streaks with their 100% bonuses. These new shops are profiling and collaring guys quickly so they can have mostly hamburger funds in the houses handle and we all know who they are, this is a hard situation for these guys because being lucky does not make you sharp and they are collaring potential long term losers that are needed in a houses handel, if you throw out all the lucky guys that win a dime or two or are only a winner because of a 100% bonus then they are not sharp, they pay the bills and are technically the bread and butter of a houses sheet, go ahead and throw them all out and see what happens. The established highly respected shops are just reducing perks because the 100% bonus is no longer competition for customers money because guys are looking for safety more than a perk now. So, if you are going to go for a nice bonus with a new service make sure it is a rollover you can knock out in 60 days or less (hit and run) because you will most likely get paid instead of a new shop risking bad PR so quickly. Everyone else stick with established shops and less perks and know that you will get paid... it is now about getting paid and not a great bonus. Also, this has been said... SBR ratings are a guide line and a fairly good one in my opinion to help guys add to information that they have also gotten so they can make a better decision when choosing an out. There are also many good and helpul OPs on this forum that are fairly honest and knowledgeable and more than willing to help steer a guy in the right direction for a decent out. Just watch out for the schills but many of the sharp OPs will point out who they are pretty quick and give advice... just a little diatribe from Touchy.

[allabout the $$$]

after saying all that touch i use a local that has a pph site very reputable guy and dont have to worry about being stiffed. in the early days of offshore it was a much better option had much more variety of things to bet than with a local, but now with the pph set up you get all of those options without the headaches of processor issues or a place just taking your money and closing shop

[touchback]

YA $$$, the PPH in the last 5 years offer everything an offshore service does except big bonuses but even some bookies give out perks like 5% or 10% or bad beat comps... completely up to the agent. That is the thing with PPHs, they are basically locals with all the offshore toys at their finger tips. Also, the PPH fees used to be quite high, we are talking $25 to $35 a week per player that uses the service. They would also charge extra for casino or charge a revenue share on losses which could be as high as 10% to 20%. It was quite pricy and only reserved by bookies for their biggest customers with the highest volume. That was when call center or call in wagers were the lions share and made up over 80% of a sheets handle, this also made it pricy. Technology, as it always does and human nature being slow does eventually pickup on these things across the board with a little time. So now, PPH pricing is quite reasonable and many locals use PPH skins, average pricing now a days is $10 per player per week only if they use the service and that is a flat fee... no extra money for anything. If you even have a few guys they will give you your own site though many lie and say it is your site. I guarantee you are sharing it with a bunch of other guys but if you got 50 to 100 active guys you can ensure receiving your own site for you and your guys at no extra charge, just by the URL and not a (.com). The PPH wars were about 2 to 3 years ago, and this really affected to write biz. That summer we saw median pricing of $20 to $25 drop to $15 to $18.... it was a big deal but the following season was worse... went to around $12 to $15 and the last 10 months has now stabilized around $10 flat. $10 flat (flat meaning sportsbook, racebook, casino, mobile, inet, phone) seams to now be the sweet spot, it had gone a little lower with an influx of dozens upon dozens of PPH (seen as low as $5 or$7 pph) service providers coming out of the word work. Guys were setting up servers in their closets in the apartments they lived in and offering all services except call center, of course there was no call center. Where were they going to put it in their one or two room apartment. Agents (onshore bookies) quickly learned that these outfits offered very poor service and usually had zero backup or redundancy. Terrible situation for a local, customers cannot get action in on Sundays game or many other events as these service providers kept going down from service interruption. They were losing or having to deal with so many pissed customers almost all of them went back to the main providers (the pillars in the biz) and pay the couple extra dollars instead of losing many customers and tons of money... quote me "you do not risk your business or tens or millions of dollars to save a couple dollars" definitely not a JP Morgan or Carnegie long term move. Speaking of these guys, great series right now on the Giants of Business, really informative docudrama. Everybody that wants to understand why things are the way they are or how they can be manipulated should check it out. History Channel, check it out... love this sh1t. Anyway, Local bookies and PPH skins have a great risk to them as well. A local or per head agent is only as good as his experience, skill, customer base, pockets and reputation. I am sure their are a million locals with PPH skins that are stiffing guys all the time or do not have a bankroll and can get broken anytime of the week. You also do not want to owe the wrong bookie a large amount of money especially when he can reach out and touch you, locals love giving out credit and in my opinion credit is a bad move. If you do not have it then you cannot play it. Act responsibly, credit is not responsible...

[allabout the $$$]

yes im sure many who do stiff but ive been with my guy for 15+ years

touch how come no one has started an exchange?

[Kaps]

I know where John is. Fukkin little rat. I cant wait when I go down there in a couple months and show up at his place. The Boat will Fully rock pal.

[touchback]

Hear you Kaps... watch it down here. They have what is called preventative detention. If they think you are involved in anything criminal you will be detained for up to six months while they investigate... no bail and no gringo get out of jail cards. Your stuck buddy... you might not like it in a Central American holding facility. Practice your Spanish at least before you come, comprende muchacho...

[Miz]

Offshore is over, so I found new things to do with my time. I got robbed by BI for a decent amount (enough to piss me off anyway), and haven't really bet since. Getting robbed is indeed part of the risk though.

I have a local for football (hopefully), and might put a small balance in 5Dimes next year. Other than that, it is too much hassle. With betting (and having +EV) you have to have a decent roll to make large enough bets to make it worth the time; but you can't trust that your money is safe in the first place. That is really a non-starter. Until the rules change in the US, I'll basically be on the sidelines.

[flyingillini]

I know where John is. Fukkin little rat. I cant wait when I go down there in a couple months and show up at his place. The Boat will Fully rock pal.

It's Jon not "John" he welcomes you to come find him, he stays strapped and will put a cap in you. Kreta is well known and runs with a tough crew. Jon is a legend and can't be touched.

[JohnnyC]

It's Jon not "John" he welcomes you to come find him, he stays strapped and will put a cap in you. Kreta is well known and runs with a tough crew. Jon is a legend and can't be touched.

A legend?

I hope you mean that as in legendary scumbag.

Or did you two share a few lines at a bash back in the day and you still consider him your boy.

[5mike5]

Pretty obvious he was joking

[PassTheDutchie]

People like to bash SBR for the BI fiasco and blame this on greed that they didn't warn the public. This doesn't make complete sense though. If they are an affiliate this means they were getting a percentage. So either they were making money of their package and then they have no indication that there was trouble a head or they were not making money and knew there was trouble, but you can't blame them of greed. Seems to me you have to pick one.

this is besides any information that they could have received aside from the weekly balances of their aff packages. Like local rumors in CR about Jon finding a shop to take over, etc.

also it was my understanding that there was an initiative from some major books to take the debt on for the good of the industry, but it stranded as not all involved parties were willing to help out.

[benandjerry]

People like to bash SBR for the BI fiasco and blame this on greed that they didn't warn the public. This doesn't make complete sense though. If they are an affiliate this means they were getting a percentage. So either they were making money of their package and then they have no indication that there was trouble a head or they were not making money and knew there was trouble, but you can't blame them of greed. Seems to me you have to pick one.

this is besides any information that they could have received aside from the weekly balances of their aff packages. Like local rumors in CR about Jon finding a shop to take over, etc.

also it was my understanding that there was an initiative from some major books to take the debt on for the good of the industry, but it stranded as not all involved parties were willing to help out.

I'm not saying this is the case, I quite frankly wouldnt know, but there is a possibility that SBR was aware there was issues earlier, but there was also a chance, albeit very slim, that BI could have kept on going, so they kept it to themselves since this ultimately was in their as well as their sponsors best interest.

When a sponsor book is involved in an issue priorities appears to be:
1. sponsor book
2. SBR



3. player

1 and 2 may be interchangeable since they are correlated. All I'm saying is, over the past time we've seen time and time again how logic goes out the window when a sponsor book is involved.


Then again, they may not have known anything and get overly harshly blamed, who really knows. At the end of the day, who can say they handled it very well, and now hiding behind a non-personal handle for their rare appearances?