[raydog]

..all you see is the dispute, hate on the book and then pay no attention to people who deal with this shit all the time... you fukk up, and have someone take financial advantage of you and then see how your tune changes about the entire issue....

scooter, the guy should have told them the payout was wrong...the subsequent withdrawal requests is considered blatant stealing since he knew, beyond a doubt, that the clerks gave him bad info and he knew he was getting away with taking their money....if you want to argue that, then you are as morally fukked as he is...

bd, there is so much cc fraud , etc. going on now by players that the books have to take extra precaution... your idea that the guy is a saint is just wrong.... "hey, they are too stupid to realize the wrong odds, im going to take this payout and start taking shots with their money" ...

i can honestly say i wouldnt put myself in this spot, but i never would have thought 5dimes would either...its a fukked up deal and i hate it because maybe the guy could have been making money at another book if he knew all this would happen... but i dont blame 5d for doing what they are doing...the rule they have in place isnt correct and deserves some bending in this case, imo...and im sure it will be changed to better protect themselves from guys who take advantage of bad lines and misgrades.

[HedgeHog]

Great stuff out of Scooter and Hedghog. Juvenile jokes that were funny in 8th grade. When that doesn't work claim alliance with SBR or the books. It's fortunate that most posters are more mature.

Instead of a Mod or Administrator, SBR chooses to "send in the clowns" to divert attention from a serious Book dispute. Maybe with JJ gone, you can be hired as the new forum ass-clown. You're certainly well qualified.

[raydog]

hh is a good players advocate...i know you only want what is best for the players and thats cool and you put a lot of heat on sbr to perform like they used too...nothing wrong with that at all, i do the same...i have never had a problem with you or your opinions even when we disagree...youre a good guy in my book, as is BD...both of you contribute solid opinions and ideas...

disputes like this are very difficult because both parties feel they have been royally screwed...im not taking 5d side because of my work, im taking it because the entire thing could have been avoided if OP brought to 5d the fact that he knew the payout was wrong...you cant blame tony for being pissed...i would go on a firing spree if i were him...like i said before, a mistake like this could bury a book.

[Scooter]

I've never played a pleaser in my life and have no idea what the payout should be. I wouldn't have even questioned it.

raydog - "when you guys see 2500+ bets roll across your desk on a saturday, then you have earned the right to criticize me for my opinions...until then, you honestly dont have a fukking clue and dont need to be in any conversation about this with me."

Nonsense.
Based upon all of your posts in this thread, your position in the industry (whatever that is, if any) has blinded you to the fact that your babbling posts ignore all the facts in this case and have simply made you undeniably biased.

There are numerous people in all fields who have been doing their job their whole lives, and are hopeless at it - we all encounter such people on a daily basis.
You are one of them.

[Scooter]

raydog - Since you refer constantly to your "experience", why are you being so vague when it comes to exactly what you do and where?

What company do you work for? What is your job there?
Be specific.

The majority of Vegas books are jokes, operated as a customer convenience. They are used to allow the customer to place a bet in the casino, rather than going to the casino across the street.
But they are all about denying bets, not taking bets.
They are run by clowns, not bookmakers (1 or 2 exceptions).

[Dan bouton]

Ray if I was so sure it was wrong I would have told them no I no its wrong instead of asking if it was correct or incorrect. As I said I am new to this and never placed a pleaser bet nor have I heard of it. I was clicking around placing every kind of bet u can think of and this one came up. I liked the odds and later wanted to check them when I learned more about bad lines and what not. When I placed the bet I had no clue what the pay out was supposed to be. As I placed more and more wagers I did think that it was a pretty high payout and considering I came close to hitting it a couple times I thought it didn't seem like it would take me 7000 chances to hit that's why I called! Not because I knew beyond a doubt it was incorrect but I felt I could hit it well befor placing 7000 bets especially if I was a more experienced bettor. Take it as u wish but if u want people to stop making assumptions as to ur motives and professional insight then stop accusing me of blatant theft and knowingly using the books money to place bets! Of course I would have just taken the $ and ran to another book or cashed out all together and kept the $ if this was my m o. I did not know I was in the wrong especially after I was told the bet was correct!! I was not aware of 5d incompetence especially with an a rating

[Scooter]

Ray if I was so sure it was wrong I would have told them no I no its wrong instead of asking if it was correct or incorrect. As I said I am new to this and never placed a pleaser bet nor have I heard of it. I was clicking around placing every kind of bet u can think of and this one came up. I liked the odds and later wanted to check them when I learned more about bad lines and what not. When I placed the bet I had no clue what the pay out was supposed to be. As I placed more and more wagers I did think that it was a pretty high payout and considering I came close to hitting it a couple times I thought it didn't seem like it would take me 7000 chances to hit that's why I called! Not because I knew beyond a doubt it was incorrect but I felt I could hit it well befor placing 7000 bets especially if I was a more experienced bettor. Take it as u wish but if u want people to stop making assumptions as to ur motives and professional insight then stop accusing me of blatant theft and knowingly using the books money to place bets! Of course I would have just taken the $ and ran to another book or cashed out all together and kept the $ if this was my m o. I did not know I was in the wrong especially after I was told the bet was correct!! I was not aware of 5d incompetence especially with an a rating

You're not taking into account that raydog has psychic powers.
He knows what you knew and didn't know.
He knows when you were going to redeposit if you lost, and not redeposit.

He is also a judge.
He knows which rules a sportsbook should follow, and more importantly, he knows which rules should be ignored to increase a sportsbook's profit.

He's a forum clown.

[Scooter]

Post #381 -

raydog - "im not going to waste my time looking over all their rules today, but there must be something somewhere that will contradict the rule of them paying the other bets out...may be something raiders can do if he has time today."

The above tells you all you need to know.

raydog isn't going to waste his time seeking out the facts before posting.
Rather, he's going to keep posting multiple times without knowing the sportsbook's own rules.

The quote demonstrates clearly that he doesn't want facts to get in the way of his biased point of view.

To him, fact checking is a waste of his time.

[raydog]

I've never played a pleaser in my life and have no idea what the payout should be. I wouldn't have even questioned it.

raydog - "when you guys see 2500+ bets roll across your desk on a saturday, then you have earned the right to criticize me for my opinions...until then, you honestly dont have a fukking clue and dont need to be in any conversation about this with me."

Nonsense.
Based upon all of your posts in this thread, your position in the industry (whatever that is, if any) has blinded you to the fact that your babbling posts ignore all the facts in this case and have simply made you undeniably biased.

There are numerous people in all fields who have been doing their job their whole lives, and are hopeless at it - we all encounter such people on a daily basis.
You are one of them.

again, you have no clue kid...but thats okay...ive been doing my job very efficiently for quite some time...the only argument that dan or your stupid ass has is that its written in their rules...thats it. and im here to tell you that some rules need to be bent in order to cover every situation. i only started out to tell you why he wasnt going to get paid from tony, but i promise you that you have learned a thing or two from this thread...ill have to put your dumbass on ignore now as you are too fukking stupid to discuss any of this with.

dan, you will never convince tony that you just happened to look at the odds of the pleaser and call to make sure they were right... do you do that for every bet you make? no... nobody calls to verify odds unless they know they are wrong

[HedgeHog]

hh is a good players advocate...i know you only want what is best for the players and thats cool and you put a lot of heat on sbr to perform like they used too...nothing wrong with that at all, i do the same...i have never had a problem with you or your opinions even when we disagree...youre a good guy in my book, as is BD...both of you contribute solid opinions and ideas...

disputes like this are very difficult because both parties feel they have been royally screwed...im not taking 5d side because of my work, im taking it because the entire thing could have been avoided if OP brought to 5d the fact that he knew the payout was wrong...you cant blame tony for being pissed...i would go on a firing spree if i were him...like i said before, a mistake like this could bury a book.

Fair enough and an excellent post on your part. A number of people (syndicate????-maybe) exploited a bad teaser line repeatedly. Those people deserve to lose all the profits they made--I side with 5D doing this. Where we part ways is with a poor sap like Dan Bouton winning on a bad bet ONE time (even after a couple calls to 5D cs to confirm the off line) and then then getting his later winnings wiped out for it. This is shot-taking at its worst. Tony is stealing from this guy.

[raydog]

Post #381 -

raydog - "im not going to waste my time looking over all their rules today, but there must be something somewhere that will contradict the rule of them paying the other bets out...may be something raiders can do if he has time today."

The above tells you all you need to know.

raydog isn't going to waste his time seeking out the facts before posting.
Rather, he's going to keep posting multiple times without knowing the sportsbook's own rules.

The quote demonstrates clearly that he doesn't want facts to get in the way of his biased point of view.

To him, fact checking is a waste of his time.

again, you have no clue...i said im not going to look for a specific rule that contradicts the one in question...you cant fukking comprehend a single word son...

[Scooter]

raydog - ".the only argument that dan or your stupid ass has is that its written in their rules...thats it. and im here to tell you that some rules need to be bent in order to cover every situation."

Says it all.

[raydog]

raydog - ".the only argument that dan or your stupid ass has is that its written in their rules...thats it. and im here to tell you that some rules need to be bent in order to cover every situation."

Says it all.

so let me ask you, son... you hit the wrong payout pleaser with a few bucks and get paid 20k... and with that 20k, you hit 10 more pleasers at 100 bucks each and put the book in the red completely...do you think the book should simply subtract 20k from the millions the player just won and try to pay the player and go out of business because of an error in a payout? as i hope you can see, this is the same scenario with inflated numbers... the correct answer here is NO... the rule of paying all plays after the bad payout simply doesnt belong...

[Santo]

Not that it probably matters given 5D rules, but have there not been cases in the past where the decision was to pro-rate bets according to the correct payout on the original one?

I would want to see the quantity and ordering of the pleaser bets in relation to opening the account before I declare the OP a "poor sap" I think, but Justin's original ruling is the only logical one if you're going to take books T&C at face value.

[raiders72001]

so let me ask you, son... you hit the wrong payout pleaser with a few bucks and get paid 20k... and with that 20k, you hit 10 more pleasers at 100 bucks each and put the book in the red completely...do you think the book should simply subtract 20k from the millions the player just won and try to pay the player and go out of business because of an error in a payout? as i hope you can see, this is the same scenario with inflated numbers... the correct answer here is NO... the rule of paying all plays after the bad payout simply doesnt belong...

That is a great point. Is there a cutoff point? If wins $5m from a 57 cent bet with money that was wrongfully paid. It's all or nothing.

[raydog]

Not that it probably matters given 5D rules, but have there not been cases in the past where the decision was to pro-rate bets according to the correct payout on the original one?

I would want to see the quantity and ordering of the pleaser bets in relation to opening the account before I declare the OP a "poor sap" I think, but Justin's original ruling is the only logical one if you're going to take books T&C at face value.

looked at the pro-rating too... would need his play logs and know his avg. bet size before the wrong pleaser payout... also looked to see if his avg deposit was around 1k... he ran 4k to 40k ish ... 1k to 10k ish seems logical and with that theory, he has already been paid... its a shame he could have been playing somewhere else...

[Emily_Haines]

There were only two out comes that could have happened here:

1] SBR rules Dan should be paid. Tony does not pay and tells SBR to fuk off and keeps the 3000-5000 he pays per month for the "A+" rating.
2] SBR rules Dan should not be paid. Tony continues to pay SBR the 3000-5000 per month for the "A+" rating.

Much easier to fuk over 1 out of 50000 players than to get 1 book out of the 10 or so left for US players angry at you and probably will discontinue the business relationship due to an unfavorable ruling. SBR was never going to risk 10% of their income with a fair ruling.

[Emily_Haines]

Also if the guy was a true shot taker. He could have just withdrawn all the money as soon as he was paid the wrong amount and then deposit at another book and probably could have got a nice bonus with a 4000 deposit.

[HedgeHog]

Not that it probably matters given 5D rules, but have there not been cases in the past where the decision was to pro-rate bets according to the correct payout on the original one?

I would want to see the quantity and ordering of the pleaser bets in relation to opening the account before I declare the OP a "poor sap" I think, but Justin's original ruling is the only logical one if you're going to take books T&C at face value.

Spot on. And BTW, the only reason I reffered to Dan B as a "poor sap" is because 5D and SBR have provided no evidence to the contrary. He's innocent to proven guilty in my mind and SBR's silence speaks volumes.

[KGambler]

That is a great point. Is there a cutoff point? If wins $5m from a 57 cent bet with money that was wrongfully paid. It's all or nothing.

No it's not a great point. It ignores the facts of the case. He only won $3,900 on pleasers. Then he went on a big heater and built it up to $40K with legit bets. 5Dimes' own rules seem pretty clear as to what should happen in this situation. They are not following their own rules.

Here's the central issue...

What would happen in this cirumstance:

1. player wins $3,900 on pleaser (wrong payout)
2. player places $3,900 on straight bet
3. player loses $3,900 straight bet
4. 5Dimes realizes pleaser payout error

What happens now? According to 5Dimes own rules, the $3,900 straight bet will stand as a LOSING BET. If the account has to go negative, then it goes negative. A negative balance means the player owes the book. It means he's not banned but must deposit enough to get a positive balance in order to bet again. It means 5Dimes is of the opinion that the player owes them money.

If you think 5Dimes would have gone against its own rules and simply cancelled the losing $3,900 straight wager, then you can support 5Dimes in this issue. If you feel that is very unlikely, then it's clear what should happen here... the player needs to get paid (minus the excess pleaser payout).

It's really not a complicated case. Stop all of this bullshit talk about millions of dollars, never ending pleaser chains, etc.

[Dan bouton]

[QUOTE=raydog;17042408

dan, you will never convince tony that you just happened to look at the odds of the pleaser and call to make sure they were right... do you do that for every bet you make? no... nobody calls to verify odds unless they know they are wrong[/QUOTE]

Again if u read my post I explain in short order how I came to think this was possibly an incorrect pay. I didn't know and I called. If I had other bets I had questions about I would do the same. This just happened to be one I felt I should get a profesional opinion on and that's what I thought I got. Let's agree to disagree and end this dispute!

[raiders72001]

No it's not a great point. It ignores the facts of the case. He only won $3,900 on pleasers. Then he went on a big heater and built it up to $40K with legit bets. 5Dimes' own rules seem pretty clear as to what should happen in this situation. They are not following their own rules.

Here's the central issue...

What would happen in this cirumstance:

1. player wins $3,900 on pleaser (wrong payout)
2. player places $3,900 on straight bet
3. player loses $3,900 straight bet
4. 5Dimes realizes pleaser payout error

What happens now? According to 5Dimes own rules, the $3,900 straight bet will stand as a LOSING BET. If the account has to go negative, then it goes negative. A negative balance means the player owes the book. It means he's not banned but must deposit enough to get a positive balance in order to bet again. It means 5Dimes is of the opinion that the player owes them money.

If you think 5Dimes would have gone against its own rules and simply cancelled the losing $3,900 straight wager, then you can support 5Dimes in this issue. If you feel that is very unlikely, then it's clear what should happen here... the player needs to get paid (minus the excess pleaser payout).

It's really not a complicated case. Stop all of this bullshit talk about millions of dollars, never ending pleaser chains, etc.

People keep stating that according to 5Dimes rules that the player is entitled to ill gained funds. The rules state that the player is not entitled to the ill gained funds.

[KGambler]

People keep stating that according to 5Dimes rules that the player is entitled to ill gained funds. The rules state that the player is not entitled to the ill gained funds.

I don't know, it seems pretty clear cut.

In the event an account reaches a negative balance due to the re-grade of an event, all in-progress pending wagers will stand and be honored. Since winning wagers in this instance will be honored, immediate settlement of losing wagers is also expected.

Customers are responsible for settling all negative accounts. "Ignorance", "I wouldn't have made that last bet if I knew my balance would have been negative", or "It's not my fault the wager was graded wrong", will not be accepted as excuses for non-settlement of negative balances.

[raiders72001]

5Dimes reserves the right to reverse the incorrect application of funds

another rule

[HedgeHog]

People keep stating that according to 5Dimes rules that the player is entitled to ill gained funds. The rules state that the player is not entitled to the ill gained funds.

What a load of shit. The only rule I see is about 5D correcting the ONE bet to its proper odds. Nowhere does it specify stealing future winnings.

How much is SBR paying you for this? Do you sleep well at night knowing you're helping to steal 30k from another poster?

[KGambler]

another rule

Yes, they should have gone ahead and reversed the incorrect application of funds. That would refer to the incorrect pleaser payout.

According to 5Dimes' own rules, the other winnings are 100% legit.

Again, not a complicated case.

[HedgeHog]

Yes, they should have have gone ahead and reversed the incorrect application of funds. That would refer to the incorrect pleaser payout.

According to 5Dimes' own rules, the other winnings are 100% legit.

Again, not a complicated case.

Bingo. Couldn't have stated it better.

[raiders72001]

Yes, they should have have gone ahead and reversed the incorrect application of funds. That would refer to the incorrect pleaser payout.

According to 5Dimes' own rules, the other winnings are 100% legit.

Again, not a complicated case.

Agreed that it's not a complicated case. It comes down to the definition of "reverse incorrect application of funds". If the money isn't your money, then it's an incorrect application to bet with it.

There a contradictory rules. The one that makes the most common sense should be used.

[HedgeHog]

Agreed that it's not a complicated case. It comes down to the definition of "reverse incorrect application of funds". If the money isn't your money, then it's an incorrect application to bet with it.

There a contradictory rules. The one that makes the most common sense should be used.

Here's common sense: Correct the one bad bet, honor the other 900 legit bets, win or lose.

[raiders72001]

DefinitionSave to Favorites

That part of statement of sources and application of funds (also called funds statement) which shows sources (such as depreciation, issue of new shares, profit before tax) and uses (such as dividend payment, purchase of capital equipment, taxation), of the working capital and other liquid funds.




Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...#ixzz2EPVHxXOj

http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...-of-funds.html

[HedgeHog]

http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...-of-funds.html

Do a search for ass-wipe and see if your picture comes up.

[raiders72001]

The financial position changed on Dan's account and the rules state that it may be reversed

application of funds uses of the funds section of the statement of changes in financial position.



Source: http://www.allbusiness.com/glossarie...#ixzz2EPWGw1IC

http://www.allbusiness.com/glossarie...#axzz2EPVyWdCe

[Trident]

the rule they have in place isnt correct and deserves some bending in this case

So you are saying 5Crimes should be able to bend the rules they posted to protect themselves?

Why even have rules posted if both parites don't have to abide by them as they are posted.

[raiders72001]

So you are saying 5Crimes should be able to bend the rules they posted to protect themselves?

Why even have rules posted if both parites don't have to abide by them as they are posted.

You can't bend rules but you have a choice when contradictory.

[Dark Horse]

Justin's solution is fair. SBR doesn't seem to realize they're killing the goose. The golden eggs weren't enough. Now the players that made them what they are have become second class citizens. To regain credibility:

1) downgrade 5D to B+ for not paying
2) downgrade 5D to B- for threatening a player
3) downgrade 1 can be undone by paying the player, in accordance with Justin's rule. For making Tony (and all sponsoring books) believe he could get away with this, SBR agrees to pay half.
4) downgrade 2 can be undone through a public apology.

Everybody wins. The player gets his money, and 5D and SBR improve credibility.

I understand that SBR is in a place where they don't want anyone to rock their boat. But that's what they were about. Rocking the boat. And books went along with it, didn't they? So why stop? Players still have plenty of power to demand that SBR return to its roots. What if the players opened new accounts with all these books, unrelated to SBR?