[KEdge2k]

Lou -- honest question: what do you think are the chances this player would have been paid after the audit was completed if SBR was NOT involved in his case?

I just wonder how many other people like him are out there who don't know about SBR or 2+2 or any other forum to complain about this.

[skrtelfan]

Because 10 other people were committing fraud and chip dumping at the same tables around the same time and at the same stakes. I don't blame them for not wanting to get cheated.
But god forbid they freeze an account for a few days or weeks while they manually look at the hands played to see if chip dumping occurred.

Did you even read my post? I said "for a site to take two weeks to perform an audit is fine." The issue is that they told the other player chip dumping has been detected and confirmed. They also said I will personally send you the hands in which you were found cheating. but refused to release his hand histories.

When you act as if this was a routine audit, you completely miss the point. Telling a guy they need to do an audit, and taking two weeks to do it, is fine, aside from them not sending him his hand histories, but that wouldn't have been a big deal if they were merely investigating. But that is not what they did. Rather, they explicitly told him chip dumping has been detected and confirmed and you were found cheating.

There is zero doubt in my mind the player would not have been paid without pressure from SBR. How often does a site tell a player he cheated and then pay him anyway without external pressure???

[Legions36]

Did you even read my post? I said "for a site to take two weeks to perform an audit is fine." The issue is that they told the other player chip dumping has been detected and confirmed. They also said I will personally send you the hands in which you were found cheating. but refused to release his hand histories.

When you act as if this was a routine audit, you completely miss the point. Telling a guy they need to do an audit, and taking two weeks to do it, is fine, aside from them not sending him his hand histories, but that wouldn't have been a big deal if they were merely investigating. But that is not what they did. Rather, they explicitly told him chip dumping has been detected and confirmed and you were found cheating.

There is zero doubt in my mind the player would not have been paid without pressure from SBR. How often does a site tell a player he cheated and then pay him anyway without external pressure???

What kind of info do u think u would get out of Stars or Tilt when they were, if this situation happened there? Barely anything if that.

[KEdge2k]

skrtelfan has it correct -- its one thing to say "we suspect chip dumping, we've frozen the account and are doing an audit." That's legit, and I would want a company who has a suspicion along those lines to take similar steps.

However, its a whole different scenario to say "we've shut your account because we have confirmed chip dumping, go get bent" which sounds like what occurred to this poster, the previous ~60k poster, and who knows how many others. That's flat out either (a) incompetence or (b) deception. It has to be one or the other, no other reasonable explanations.

[wiltontilt]

I just wanted to say thanks to the SBR community for supporting me with this mess. Thanks Lou for talking to these guys on my behalf. If I can ever do anything to repay you guys for the time/energy/advice, please let me know.

Aaron / WiltOnTilt

[SBR Lou]

Lou -- honest question: what do you think are the chances this player would have been paid after the audit was completed if SBR was NOT involved in his case?

Public perception is that squeaky wheels are greased while droves of players incapable of using Google are screwed over left and right. There are some shoestring operations this logic applies to, but BetOnline just isn't one of them.

I recognize that BetOnline didn't do themselves any favors when one of their support reps claimed a player was guilty, but this is no different than a Walmart greeter misrepresenting a situation involving company policy. You typically wait to speak with management with problems beyond "I forgot my password".

The fact is that players suspected of chip-dumping are investigated at all poker sites—including BetOnline—and that investigations take time. As the SBR report on 11/23 indicated, BetOnline plans to add to their poker management staff to be better equipped to tackle any necessary account audits, thus reducing the amount of time involved.

[Patrick McIrish]

EXACTLY, sharp post Lou. Clearly this is a rogue poker supervisor out on the loose trying to steal money. I imagine the BOL management team was just devastated when they read about another case of this. Hell I could almost hear the yelling from here, this BOL outfit is filled with integrity, once they reel in this secret poker supervisor you guys will begin to see it. Just give us some time, we reported on 11/23 they need to add to the staff, might be some minor attempts at theft in the meanwhile but rest assured they scream at these poker supervisors every time it happens!! I'd hate to be in the next cubicle, management does not go easy on these rogue poker supervisors that are out to steal money! How can they not be an A book, that's my only question in all this? Thanks for taking such a tough stance Lou.

[mighty maron]

I dont know if these were routine investigations. 2+2 has been around for a while. I dont recall many chip dumping seizures that were battled on 2+2 like BOL were.

I hope they ease off the account freezes

[wrongturn]

Lou's explanation actually reduces my confidence in BOL.

[durito]

Bol should eliminate poker until they are equipped to handle it.

[Patrick McIrish]

That would be the obvious thing to do. Versus blatantly taking money, accusing the players of cheating/chip dumping, then when a forum gets involved reluctantly going ahead and paying out the players. Repeat over and over again.


Wrong - you are not alone. Not only that but hard to take his next positive opinion about any book very seriously going forward as well. He clearly knows what side of the bread the butter is on but this is ridiculous.

[prop]

Lou serious question as well and the intent here is not stirring. The $37,000 complaint where the player admitted to a $50 chip dump transfer to a friend and there was 50 hands or some figure like this where the player played on same IP. In this case BetOnline after a near month delay finally claimed it was a chip dumping ring with CC fraud and SBR news wire reported this player confessed. The entire thing seems from both sides is very fishy (I don't want to press here too much getting into specifics on that case in hopes that you'll respond). The VERY SPECIFIC QUESTION:

Was SBR provided "NON-VERBAL" evidence that led you to rule that confiscating the full $37,000 in this situation was just? Or was that ruling made on simply taking BetOnline's word against the original posters? It very much seemed in that thread that the player admitted to transferring $50.00 to a friend via a chip dump and this was used to prove his guilt. Then later they said there was CC fraud (proof that links him to this? **why was he allowed to cash out once previously***- I didn't see that hands or something showing this was a fraudulent card account and here is the very obvious dump. Then there was a comment about 50 something hands tossed out later (its seemed straw grasping - but there was no details about this hands or graphs about chip flow or anything else).

I do appreciate what you do - I got heated in a past thread earlier and jumped the gun feeling the player was being stolen from. I'm just trying to understand in this dispute (as well as 2 others - though based on their weak defense I have far less doubts on those two) how does SBR decide when fund confiscation is just and considers the matter resolved?

To be clear again: I'm not looking to protect scammers and I find that one fishy on both sides. I'm just wondering how SBR goes about this. It would appear from Greg and Wilt's cases SBR contacted BetOnline was told they were auditing and then BetOnline said okay we're paying him (SBR had no facts to review because BetOnline agreed to pay) In the cases where BetOnline has come back and continued to insist it was a scammer what happens then. Is it simply "BetOnline has informed us.... (end case)" or is anything else done.

/end question to Lou. start: added comments

I can't say in the $37,000 complaint having followed it on more than one forum, that I am convinced beyond reasonable doubt that full balance confiscation was just. Additionally I feel there is a high probability (and would be willing to discuss why in more details if the concerns are welcome and no problem if not) that BetOnline profited from by confiscating this balance. I'm in no way swayed to the other side on the first stated side (if it was pick a side I pick BetOnline not the player over the full confiscation but it's not a massive edge I'd be betting with).

Relevancy: There is a frequent claim by several SBR staff that BetOnline has never cheated a player. I have reasonable doubt to that claim even with cases that have passed through SBRs hands. I'm more than okay with dropping it, I'm also okay with discussing it in private, and I'm also okay with hashing it out here, or even disusing it with BoL direct (point: this is not an issue I'll troll your forum with). However, as someone who has handled TONS of poker complaints - and has consulted with numerous small poker sites during their growth stages I have reasonable doubt this claim is true. I have strong doubt BetOnline is not profiting from balance confiscations.

[skrtelfan]

What kind of info do u think u would get out of Stars or Tilt when they were, if this situation happened there? Barely anything if that.

PokerStars always sends hand histories upon request, and despite their site having hundreds of thousands of players, I've never once heard of a case where they suspended an account for chip dumping without any evidence at all. The simple fact is that "this situation" would never happen at a good site like Pokerstars.

[prop]

Legions you're talking out your ass on this one. Everything i ever learned about auditing accounts came from PokerStars responses on live issues. These guys not only provide the hand histories straight away. They've already conducted a full investigation and audit and in more persistent cases will send a detailed write up with charts and graphs.

[HedgeHog]

His last post in his thread on 2+2 said he'd requested his first $15k on Nov 25th (a Friday) and received it the following Monday, Nov 28th. The second was requested on that same Monday (the 28th) and he received it on Nov 30th. He then requested his third $15k chunk that same day and he hasn't returned to the thread. I'd assume that if he hadn't received it or the rest of his cash, he would've posted at one of the two forums during the past 7 days.

You're pissed that you're having trouble with your check... any visitor to S&I in the past day or two is well aware of that because you're bouncing from thread to thread talking about "no pays". Yet you can't back that up and guys who have been on this forum for years have told you that you'll get paid from BOL, it's a common issue within the industry, etc... It's unfortunate that the first time you have to experience it is right before Xmas but that doesn't mean that a book is a stiff joint Hedge.

I appreciate the update on the 65k theft victim getting paid faster than expected. Still it should be no surprise that they want to make this issue disappear as fast as possible. With all due respect, I did back it up, the 65k thread spoke for itself--BOL stole and got caught so that does make them a stiff joint. They only paid when SBR caught them doing so. The facts speak for themselves.

PS Your conflict of interest point is weak. Sure I'm "pissed" that BOL's extremely late check sent to me was phony. However, you failed to address your own conflict of interest. BOL pays a monthly fee to advertise here and be kept on the recommended list with the minimum B+ rating--which everyone knows is a joke.

[Legions36]

PokerStars always sends hand histories upon request, and despite their site having hundreds of thousands of players, I've never once heard of a case where they suspended an account for chip dumping without any evidence at all. The simple fact is that "this situation" would never happen at a good site like Pokerstars.

Really would they send out the hand histories in the middle of a big ********** and chipdump scheme, where there are multiple players involved?
And i can tell u from a few stories with cake and tilt a few years back, they did the same thing when they went to cash out and "they were guilty", they locked the account did there investigation, gave no hand history or anything of the sort even though they denied that chip dumping was going on. In the end they were forced to tell the truth and money returned, but no matter how much they pleaded they never gave out any hand history. And this is not any forum posts this is a few buddies i know that wanted to share some money and it was on heads up tables, so please don't tell me things that i already know of.
If they can't get poker right and this keeps happening then like i stated before then they should just stop it.

[Legions36]

Legions you're talking out your ass on this one. Everything i ever learned about auditing accounts came from PokerStars responses on live issues. These guys not only provide the hand histories straight away. They've already conducted a full investigation and audit and in more persistent cases will send a detailed write up with charts and graphs.

Blah Blah Blah always wanting to suck my di-ck.

[prop]

Making stuff up LOL - I was contracted by one of those companies you just rattled off BS about from software development stage until mid-2008. Even after this ended there is there's a very logical reason hand histories were not denied. Of course I could fill you in here, but it will only provide you a more credible line next time you come around shilling for sites, so I will allow you to do your own research on that. Your claim is actually quite absurd to any serious player who actually played there.

[shari91]

I appreciate the update on the 65k theft victim getting paid faster than expected. Still it should be no surprise that they want to make this issue disappear as fast as possible. With all due respect, I did back it up, the 65k thread spoke for itself--BOL stole and got caught so that does make them a stiff joint. They only paid when SBR caught them doing so. The facts speak for themselves.

PS Your conflict of interest point is weak. Sure I'm "pissed" that BOL's extremely late check sent to me was phony. However, you failed to address your own conflict of interest. BOL pays a monthly fee to advertise here and be kept on the recommended list with the minimum B+ rating--which everyone knows is a joke.

Everyone knows I work here - it says so in my avatar. However not everyone will know why you're upset at BOL unless they've chosen to follow every thread you've posted in during the past 2 or 3 days. And not everyone will know that several non SBR employees have told you you are overreacting and it will get sorted out as it always does at any decent book who has run into the same problem. For what it's worth, BOL being an advertiser or not has nothing to do with what I post. I'm not muzzled. I joined this forum as a gambler who happened to get a job 2yrs later. I also happen to play poker and visit 2+2 quite often - moreso since FT jacked my cash. The nature of my posts hasn't changed in my time here: I like to see a discussion progress based on facts and without agenda. Any other way isn't beneficial to any of us and is completely self-serving. Especially when the poster referenced has provided info to 100% refute what is being claimed.

[5mike5]

I appreciate the update on the 65k theft victim getting paid faster than expected. Still it should be no surprise that they want to make this issue disappear as fast as possible. With all due respect, I did back it up, the 65k thread spoke for itself--BOL stole and got caught so that does make them a stiff joint. They only paid when SBR caught them doing so. The facts speak for themselves.

PS Your conflict of interest point is weak. Sure I'm "pissed" that BOL's extremely late check sent to me was phony. However, you failed to address your own conflict of interest. BOL pays a monthly fee to advertise here and be kept on the recommended list with the minimum B+ rating--which everyone knows is a joke.

yes, these ratings have become laughable, and most know this

if this BS had been happening ANYWHERE, but a online book that pays huge money to SBR every single month, the warnings would be EVERYWHERE on here...any1 thats pays attention see the only problems being hammered by SBR, are problems that come from books that arent paying primo fees to SBR every month...any1 with a brain can see that BOL tries to cheat players

[durito]

bol rating is accurate enough imo

[HedgeHog]

Everyone knows I work here - it says so in my avatar. However not everyone will know why you're upset at BOL unless they've chosen to follow every thread you've posted in during the past 2 or 3 days. And not everyone will know that several non SBR employees have told you you are overreacting and it will get sorted out as it always does at any decent book who has run into the same problem. For what it's worth, BOL being an advertiser or not has nothing to do with what I post. I'm not muzzled. I joined this forum as a gambler who happened to get a job 2yrs later. I also happen to play poker and visit 2+2 quite often - moreso since FT jacked my cash. The nature of my posts hasn't changed in my time here: I like to see a discussion progress based on facts and without agenda. Any other way isn't beneficial to any of us and is completely self-serving. Especially when the poster referenced has provided info to 100% refute what is being claimed.

Really? Then recuse yourself because you definitely have an agenda...as does Lou. My posts have focused on the two poker thefts--not my puny $2500 problem. Quit focusing on me and pay attention to the people that have had serious money confiscated. I'll address my problem in my own thread. In the meantime, can you stop hijacking this one?

[HedgeHog]

bol rating is accurate enough imo

Lost all respect for you with this post. I guess the attempted poker thefts mean nothing.

[mighty maron]

durrito was balanced. He says they should stop poker til they know how to handle it. The B+ for the sportsbook portion of it is close to what I would give it. I dont like BOL but a B rating is fair for non poker related issues.

[Legions36]

Making stuff up LOL - I was contracted by one of those companies you just rattled off BS about from software development stage until mid-2008. Even after this ended there is there's a very logical reason hand histories were not denied. Of course I could fill you in here, but it will only provide you a more credible line next time you come around shilling for sites, so I will allow you to do your own research on that. Your claim is actually quite absurd to any serious player who actually played there.

First off i got nothing to make up nor do i care where or who u have worked for. I know what i know and believe it if u want or just move on. Go look up any of the A and B rated books as well as a few C and D and u will see me in probably all of them, i have nothing bad to say about any book that i use or have used except Beted where i lost out in the end.

[durito]

Lost all respect for you with this post. I guess the attempted poker thefts mean nothing.

I don't see anything but extreme incompetence there. But, I don't give a shit about poker.

You rate books 100% on your experiences with them. Steal from everyone and pay you and they get an A. I've had recent payouts from your favorite books like Heritage and BetUSA take way longer than your BOL, but I don't have to bash them in every thread nor call for them to be rated D, these things happen if you want payouts to the USA. I suggest moving, BOL pays out within a day via MB.

[BAUS]

I suggest moving, BOL pays out within a day via MB.

This is true, most of the time.

BAUS

[snoopaloop31]

Damn. This is ridiculous.

[Mammon]

We're happy that two otherwise routine audits involved over $80,000 - it shows that the book has no problem making payments. Occasional processor snafus aside, BetOnline has no problem paying big winners. The guy with $300 whose being audited usually doesn't make threads at 5 forums but are investigated just the same when poker chip-dumping is suspected.

It looks like they are guilty and theft tried until they find out they are posters here or other forums. Calling them guilty first is the give away. Try to change this please. A half grade down is in order for these guilty first ways.

[5mike5]

BOL is just as laughable as the ratings are here at SBR now adays

u think they will try and steal poker winnings, but not anything else??

how gullable can u be? (embarassing)

[Monte]

This forum is becoming the laughingstock of my bookmarked list very fast.
Most posts are either shills like Legions36, smartguys who post 1 sentence of wisdom (they think), LOU or any other sbr dude blowing their sponsors, and a handful of honest posters who see the writing on the wall for places like BO.
Staring at a wall is becoming more entertaining very quick.

[nyplayer33]

Why do you play on that site..did u know its part of the action poker network and they dont allow usa players?? There has been countless issues with that network and it has been posted on 2plus2...you have/had bodog and merge and other sites to play on..like any poer site you are at there mercy of the poker site

[nyplayer33]

Wait, your a poker coach and played on a shady site...palm to forehead

[nyplayer33]

betonline doesn't run security within poker..actiion poker does...they are having or had many money issues and it's action poker not betonline that is the entity at hand. Wasn't there a thread or posts about the issues with this poker platform on 2plus3..

[Legions36]

This forum is becoming the laughingstock of my bookmarked list very fast.
Most posts are either shills like Legions36, smartguys who post 1 sentence of wisdom (they think), LOU or any other sbr dude blowing their sponsors, and a handful of honest posters who see the writing on the wall for places like BO.
Staring at a wall is becoming more entertaining very quick.

Ok since your obviously the coolest dude ever and seem to know so much about books even more than SBR why don't u start a recommended list and i will go by it. Please hurry fast cause according to u the places i use are wrong and if idiots like u hate SBR so much why are u here?