[Swinging Johnson]

Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA), chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, introduced the Internet Gambling Regulation, Consumer Protection, and Enforcement Act of 2009, on Wednesday, May 6, as he lived up to his promise to push for legalized, regulated gambling on the Internet.

http://sportsgambling.about.com/od/s.../frankmay6.htm



I didn't say online casinos would be good for Vegas. I said if they ran online poker sites it would be good for them. There's a big difference between online poker sites and online casinos.



We're not talking about "the feds", we're talking politicians and lobbyists. Off hand, the only politician I know of who could have been called a "fed" was George Bush Sr. (former head of the CIA). That's a very rare thing.

Barney Frank's proposal was limited to online poker, not sports gambling. We are talking about legalizing online gambling not just poker.

[denn333]

Being a hero at SBR should do it.

[RudyRuetigger]

I said legalized online poker sites run by Vegas casinos would be good for Vegas so that article is no surprise to me. Go back and read my posts.

your initial post says online gambling. you are fukkin wrong so you try to change the story?

fact is, vegas would LOVE having sportsbooks, casinos and all the other shit online too. its not vegas trying to hold back online gambling.. they just want to make sure they have a large chunk of it.

again, your post is dumb and not true at all..but keep trying to argue it.

[cleaveland]

Barney Frank's proposal was limited to online poker, not sports gambling. We are talking about legalizing online gambling not just poker.

Singing Johnson made this comment "There is no politicain out there willing to put his/her neck on the line for being pro-gambling." and that's not true at all.

[cleaveland]

your initial post says online gambling. you are fukkin wrong so you try to change the story?

I hadn't thought through the subtleties when I made the thread. There is a big difference between online poker and online casino games/sports betting, that's why poker is legal in many states. The fact that it is legal in many states is that the thing that makes the difference. I made a mistake there but I made it clear a few posts after that, sorry.

[Swinging Johnson]

Cleaveland, you're parsing words and what I once believed to be passion is now more closely reflecting your inability to accept that your original premise was invalid. When I made the comment, pro-gambling I made it all inclusive. If I said there is no politician willing to stick his neck out to be pro-online poker that would have been erroneous (but the few brave souls who do support online poker are in the minority).

Oh, and earlier you stated you could not find anyone from a Vegas concern asking for online gambling to be legal, look up the 60 Minutes segment from this year or last. I believe it was a spokeperson or executive from Harrah's that plainly said it should be legalized, taxed and regulated. They opened an online casino but when they realized the US resident couldn't play, they shut it down. I know many in here will remember that recent interview.

[RudyRuetigger]

las vegas wants every from of gambling online so they can profit from it. sure "normal" average workers will lose their jobs in vegas, but the people running it would make a fortune.

lobbyists of sports teams want gambling hidden under the table, but want it to still go on. lets face it, games get more attention because of gambling...i view these lobbyists as the MLB Commissioner at the beginning of the Steroid Era..."ok we will let it go on to help us..but shhh keep it quiet"

the real problem is your "moral, religious" lobbyists who have all kind of cash to sway the politicians...oh yea, and it appears most of the country views gambling this way too.


so in your initial post..when you say "they" don't want to legalize online gambling, you should be talking about the 3rd group i mentioned, and not a picture of vegas. Besides people like us, they are the next in line that actually want it.

[pavyracer]

this is the dumbest post in the thread.

Why then there is a drinking age limit of 21 years old? Is it because we trust the kids to drink responsibly when they are in HS?

[cleaveland]

Cleaveland, you're parsing words and what I once believed to be passion is now more closely reflecting your inability to accept that your original premise was invalid. When I made the comment, pro-gambling I made it all inclusive. If I said there is no politician willing to stick his neck out to be pro-online poker that would have been erroneous (but the few brave souls who do support online poker are in the minority).

Oh, and earlier you stated you could not find anyone from a Vegas concern asking for online gambling to be legal, look up the 60 Minutes segment from this year or last. I believe it was a spokeperson or executive from Harrah's that plainly said it should be legalized, taxed and regulated. They opened an online casino but when they realized the US resident couldn't play, they shut it down. I know many in here will remember that recent interview.

Your first point is very confusing because it hinges on whether or not you consider poker to be gambling.

The interview you mentioned doesn't sway me because corporations are known to say one thing publicly while doing the opposite secretly.

[Swinging Johnson]

Your first point is very confusing because it hinges on whether or not you consider poker to be gambling.

The interview you mentioned doesn't sway me because corporations are known to say one thing publicly while doing the opposite secretly.

Oh boy......you're a lost cause.

[Emily_Haines]

I can drive 30 minutes to the nearest Indian Casino and play 90% of the stuff Vefas offers right now.

[dbartinbwgc]

The boys and I thought of a way the states could offer sports betting.
Each state would/could be backed by a casino of financial company so they have no
liability on loses just tax the profit from it.
They would offer games through the lottery system, but you have to scan your drivers license
or state ID to track your play and you would only be allowed to play a certain amount a day.
This prevents you from going to several places to try and bet more, you could use someone else's
id's but if you win they would be on the hook for the taxes.
Also make it so is the college team is from that area/state put a lower limit on the game so you dont have that
issue of someone trying to throw a game for only a few bucks.

But we also decided it would never happen

[kmarinouofm]

They can't fill the hotels/casinos in Las Vegas now. How in the world could they ever do it if everyone could legally play all their favorite games/gamble on virtually anything 24/7 online. What would happen to Las Vegas if that were the case?

have you been to vegas? have you looked around.. do you think these people want to play online? yOU think i want to throw virtual dice? you think i am going to chat it up with my hot virtual blackjack dealer?
have you ever picked up a girl in a online casino and enjoyed a bunch of drinks?

online will only make people more familiar with the games.. and make it more accepted in society.. thats it..

You really think it won't be much harder for them to try and fill the hotels and casinos when people can bet legally and freely from the comfort of their own homes 24/7 365 days a year?

no.. you can play in pretty much every city any house game you want.. with the exception of craps.. some states don't allow craps..(california, Florida, i am sure there are more)

Your off on this. First of all the majority of the public has never gambled online, nor do they even know they can gamble online. You go to casinos and there are tons of people playing 50 and 100 hands of blackjack that I know have never played online.

The reason gambling is outlawed is number 1)impossible to collect taxes on it, 2) the religous right of this country thinks it is bad for the county. Both of these are insane, but thats the facts.

Here's why online gambling isn't legal:

* Unlike the posters who frequent SBR, online gambling is not even a blip on the radar screen in many people's everyday lives. It's like the legalization of marijuana for someone like me. I don't care either way because the last hit I took was 20 years ago. Therefore:

* Political candidates get no juice for running on a pro-gambling platform. In voters minds, gambling (particularly sports gambling) is a shadowy topic and it will not earn any candidate any political capital by associating with it.

* The only way it could gain steam is if an entrenched incumbent brought it up as a revenue enhancer (tax) which might be palatable to the electorate, positioning it as a special interest tax that would not be shouldered by the masses but by the bookmakers and ultimately the players. In other words, someone else pays but everyone wins is the only way it can be packaged.

* If it is delivered delicately and cleverly, and then presented as a reasonable and viable way to generate revenue then, once the public has digested it, alert them that opponents want to limit their right to choose and these same politicians have the gall to believe they know what's best for the American people. Then the general public will understand it is akin to the silliness that was Prohibition and the dominoes will fall, painting all those who oppose it as bible belt tub thumpers.

* Only when it becomes politically viable to back online gambling, will the politicians do it. Until then, there is no reason for that dog to hunt.

one of the better posts i have read in a while

They cant fill hotels in Vegas because there are casinos in almost every major city now.

very true..

online casinos help vegas.
other states legalizing gambling helps vegas.

just think of how many new rooms were added in vegas over the last 10-15 years since every other state legalized some form of gambling and since online gaming exploded - bellagio, wynn, mandalay bay, encore, city center, 2 palms towers, the list goes on and on.
and vegas is still running over 90% occupied.

i have been to vegas probably 10 times in the last 2 years.. i assure you its only 90% during big weekends, superbowl, 4th of july, memorial day weekend (is huge in vegas) , Magic , and and maybe a few other big conventions..

[Naz18]

They can't fill the hotels/casinos in Las Vegas now. How in the world could they ever do it if everyone could legally play all their favorite games/gamble on virtually anything 24/7 online. What would happen to Las Vegas if that were the case?

Yeah so maybe the politicians in Nevada would be against it but it doesn't support why the rest would.

[zacharyj53]

There is one and only one reason: TAXES.

[Tech N9ne]

Fukkin republicans ruin everything

[BigdaddyQH]

For all of you posters who do not play in Vegas, or go to Vegas, let me clue you in:

1. Vegas casinos would make a small fortune if on line gaming, as we know it, were allowed in the U.S.
2. While it may be difficult for the Feds to collect all of the tax revenues do it, they still would collect much more than they collect now, which is basically zero.
3. Anyone who knows anyone who works in management in Vegas would know that these people would love nothing more than to see on line gaming legalized and controled by Vegas.
4. The hotels in Vegas would lose little, if any business. The fact is that when the Indian reservations opened up, Vegas actually gained visitors. You do not get free drinks or dinners at Indian Reservation Casino's. You do not get free rooms at Indian Reservation Casino's. You do not have huge shopping malls to keep non-gamblers and kids busy at Indian Reservation Casino's. You do not have nearly the type of entertainment that Vegas offers at Indian Reservation Casino's. Some are trying, but most do not have "Headliners" playing at them for more than one evening.
5. The Senate majority leader is Harry Reid. Guess which State he respresents? If you said Nevada, give yourself one point.
6. The Vegas Casino's have been ready to start on line gaming for years now. They have just been waiting to get the O.K.

Nowthose are the indisputable facts. Whether or not on line gaming comes to fruition remains to be seen, but please do NOT try to tell me that Vegas is against it. There is simply no way that a statement like that is true.

[pavyracer]

BigdaddyQH,

What if the government put a sales tax on bets instead of taxing the winnings? Each bet should be considered as purchase and taxed. Will this make it easier to collect some tax revenue if gambling was legalized?

[d2bets]

I disagree. First of all, there's already been plenty of online gambling and never effected Vegas. You really think people are going to skip their Vegas trip because they can wager online instead? It's just not the same thing.

More importantly, the same entities that run Vegas (MGM, etc.) will be the beneficiaries of legal online gaming if it ever happens. So long as they feel they can dominate the market, the big casinos want legal online gambling (brought onshore).

[jmilacek]

US government needs to do the following:

Open USPoker.gov.

Take rake as taxes.

Profit.

They could probably make $10 billion a year from this alone. I know a TON of people who don't play poker online because it is illegal and too hard to fund. If the US just let you use Paypal to play on their site and took a standard rake, I believe all the casual home game players who don't want to give CC# and SS# to some random website in Aruba would flock to this. The money raised would be unbelievable.

[alling]

problem with your theory is there are now casinos not only in the rest of Nevada but other states as well. the real reason uncle sam is busting offshore books is simple. government is not getting their piece of the pie. thats why online horse racing is legal.

[Optional]

* The only way it could gain steam is if an entrenched incumbent brought it up as a revenue enhancer (tax) which might be palatable to the electorate, positioning it as a special interest tax that would not be shouldered by the masses but by the bookmakers and ultimately the players. In other words, someone else pays but everyone wins is the only way it can be packaged.

That's how BetFair managed to eventually get approval to operate in Australia.

They pay a percentage of profit made on each (Australian) sport they offer directly to the sports organizing body... I think it's around 30% for some sports.

Having Betfair pay for junior development and sporting facilities makes them look like good guys to a LOT of non-gamblers.

No doubt they are working on the powers that be in the US to sell the same sort of setup.

The quicker the offshore books die, the more pressure will come on for legal options to be made available faster.

Could be good times for US punters around the corner I think. And US punters will make Betfair twice as awesome as it already is. (for players AND the sports it supports financially)

[MUHerd37]

The casinos would make a ton of money off internet gambling. If a major casino was allowed to offer me online sports betting, my money would be out from the offshore books in a heartbeat.

[ManBearPig]

Just a couple things to add...if anyone isn't aware of it there's a bill HR 2230 that was introduced that basically sets up how this gaming would be taxed should it be legalized...this isn't actually the legalization of online gaming. I work for Dept of Tax in NV and we sure could collect these taxes should they be implemented. These businesses pay us taxes already so adding this to the list is possible and it's very possible to create or modify a new or existing tax and collect on it. It's just a matter of how we process the returns and what they report on it.

I'll tell you that NV doesn't garner much from casinos in terms of revenue anyways as 75% of our revenue is generated from S&U tax anyways. If this were to change I hope they (state gov) change the laws so that the casinos put up more because they stand to make a lot of money off this.

Another reason I see this happening of a recent acquisition by William Hill here in Nevada and I think they will be pushing for this as one of their initiatives. In fact one of these properties Leroy's allows you to make online bets for NV residents only, but I haven't used it to compare to what's avl as far as the variety so but I would guess it's not as good. I think if any of the casinos decide to move online they are going to want the country as available clients as most (not all) would switch to these "legal" options - just having NV residents as potential suitors isn't worth their time. I could be wrong, but this will be coming sooner than later but is still a few years off though because of all the hurdles that they still face.

[Capybara]

Great thread, guys! Very informative discourse.

[bballs84]

Man it sure would be nice if it was allowed in every state but don't think that will ever happen

[Reno Paul]

This is a very good thread........Another reason I'm thinking Las Vegas casinos and hotels aren't filled is that the average person doesn't have the disposable income they used to have with this suck-ass economy.

[TheMoneyShot]

Wow... some of the theories in this thread are outrageous and absurd. Sorry fellas.

There's one reason and only one reason why the US Government wants to shut down online gaming... They want to tax the sportsbook owners... not the players. Let's look at the facts... Players lose money 90% of the time on a yearly basis... what's to tax a player on? Because he got hot once? You can't tax him on that... you have to tax a player on his overall earnings. If he didn't earn anything... you can't tax him. Majority of players LOSE. The US Government is greedy. They know they can't regulate offshore casinos and trust an offshore owner to pay TAXES on their EARNINGS... so... the next best thing you ask??? SHUT THEM DOWN. Put the onus on the US Gambler. The government figures... he/she will play a state lottery with their money... or put the money back in the US Economy somehow. It's simple mathematics. And... really just common sense.

[beach nut]

If online gambling were legalized it would bring new players to the tables and Las Vegas would ultimately benefit from this. Aside from that Harrah's, MGM Mirage, Station Casinos, and Wynn would likely be among the first companies liscensed to operate gaming websites once legislation was passed. These companies would then have a large market share of both brick-and-mortar and online gaming operations in the US.

[apwmel]

The GOP is the hold up in legalizing online gaming and until wall street tells them to do so we are screwed. We should stop calling them casinos and instead call them job creators. Maybe "Job Creating Hotel Complexes".

[Grits n' Gravy]

Please explain what you're saying. From what I've read lobbyists from the companies that own Las Vegas have stopped any legislation that would make online gambling legal.

You are 100% wrong in your original post.

Every single gaming company in Las Vegas already has domains/websites, software, hardware etc...set up to go if congress was to legalize any forms of internet gaming. Sands had a server set up in Gibraltar before it went public with stock. Not sure if they still are maintaining it though. It would make zero negative impact on revenues in Vegas if it were to pass. Poker will go through within the next 4-6 years and then we should see slots/video poker and tables put in down the road. Sports will be tough to get through with NCAA included and most operators have come to terms with this.

[FlipK11]

Yep! Online gambling sends vegas to the desert dogs, it's still a fun place to go for a vacation though. I mean come on..who wants to sit at home all day every day?

[bruceBRUCEbruce]

Why then there is a drinking age limit of 21 years old? Is it because we trust the kids to drink responsibly when they are in HS?

has nothing to do with your initial point, which is still shortsighted and silly.

[wrongturn]

The reason that "they don't want" is because any such law to make it legal won't pass congress, mainly because of widely conservative view on gambling. Although any law to make it explicitly illegal also has problem to pass congress because it tramples individual freedom, somehow one congressman sneaked in the UIGEA law which makes gambling transaction illegal under the SAFE Port Act in 2006. So technically we can blame extreme Islamic for the downfall of online gambling in USA.

[BeerDog99]

A lot of good points and bad/silly points in this thread.

All I can say as about this as a non-american but fellow North American is this:

1) In my humble opinion, Americans should be pushing their politicians for freedom instead of their idealogical viewpoints. I understand the points about no political "will" to stick their necks out but it just shocks me that Americans that fight and die for their freedom, do not care that the government is controlling those hard fought freedoms.

2) The US government (with pushing from their citizens) should be more concerned with protecting (i.e. regulation and enforcement) and treating all gambling the same way as far as taxing goes. Either way, again, the government should focusing on protecting it's citizens from bad companies as opposed to being a nanny state and telling their citizens what is good for them or not...

Lastly, I think all North American players would jump at the chance to keep their money "local" and be able to easily gamble online or at their favourite Vegas casino. If Vegas corps ran online and B&M casinos, I would be able earn trips and play with the real/virtual money I have. It seems like a no-brainer from a $$ perspective for all parties involved.

Cheers.