[goblue12]

Cashes out at slightly over 10K.

What do I have to do to avoid "the form(s)".

[Covy]

Is it possible to get 9k in cash and spread the other 3k on different bets?

[Hareeba!]

Cashes out at slightly over 10K.

What do I have to do to avoid "the form(s)".

r u serious ?

asking the forum how to evade tax ?

[cyberinvestor]

There should not be any tax forms unless you hit like a 600-1 or higher odds parlay. If you get cash the casino has to report the transaction as a cash transaction to the IRS but that doesn't have anything directly to do with tax. The reason the IRS requires reporting of any cash transaction over $10,000 is to monitor money launderIng which would not apply to you (unless you are a drug dealer and not telling us). So don't worry about the documents. Trying to evade the documents is illegal and if you have nothing to hide then why break the law for no reason? I have won tens of thousands on Vegas sports bets and the forms have never caused me any issues.

[do5000]

maybe you can ask for some in chips. then cash them in later?

[chase hardy]

Dont worry about the forms!

[BET THE HOOK]

Just do what's right.

[ROYAJA8]

Just give me your winning ticket. Just tell them 8 grand cashed out and the other amount bet on something. Good job on hustling the sportsbook

[cyberinvestor]

Dont worry about the forms!

Not to beat a dead horse but I agree with Chase. To expand on my earlier post. I don't mean to sound sarcastic but honestly does anyone think when the IRS gets a form about $12,000 from Mirage sportsbook or wherever that they immediately start an investigation on the person? Do you realize that the IRS gets over 10,000 of these forms PER DAY for cash transactions over $10,000? Which means they receive 3,650,000 per year. These are not reviewed. They go into a file and are used only if the IRS gets wind that someone might be laundering money or evading taxes. Which usually doesn't come from these form records but rather an FBI, Secret Service or other investigation. At which point the IRS will go to this file and see what information they can garner. If you are not laundering money, are paying your taxes (for the most part), then you could have one of these forms submitted on you every day and it won't matter to the IRS or your taxes. You need to relax. You don't go to Mirage, pickup your $12,000 and all of a sudden some IRS agent gets a form on his desk that says Joe Blow just picked up $12,000 at Mirage Sportsbook in cash and then they open an investigation. It would be impossible and it also is not necessary for them to investigate.

As I said in my initial post in this thread. I have been to Vegas many times, won large cash sums, have had the form submitted on me God only knows how many times and have never gotten a call, letter, or had any issue on my taxes.

Every week there is someone on this forum panicking because they won a large sum of money either in LV or offshore and they are worried about taxes. Most people in any given year on this board lose more than they win so taxes are not an issue. Those on this board that win more than they lose more than likely don't win enough for the IRS to even care about ($5K, $15K, $20K). Those on this board that win more than $25K or $50K in a year betting most likely do this as a business or at the very least have a large enough income to warrant having an accountant handle everything for them. At which point they should not have any tax issues. Tell your accountant everything at that point and you will never have an issue. As someone said previously, you could list on your tax return that you got $80K from drug dealing and the IRS cannot share that with any other government institution so long as you paid your tax on those funds.

Also, winning in a sportsbook is not the same as winning at a slot machine. When you win at the sportsbook and take it in cash, Mirage (or whatever book) will then send a document to the IRS for the record that you got over $10K in cash. Nothing big with no tax impliactions. When you win at a slot machine, any amount over $1,200, then the casino must report that to the IRS because you are given a W-2G. In this case it is imperative you retain the W-2G because the IRS is notified of this win and will expect you to report it as income for that tax year. If you don't, that is an immediate flag for an audit. When you file your taxes for the year then submit all your W-2G's with your taxes, provide the win/loss statement to show your losses (more than likely) so that any taxes are null and void on your gambling winnings or withholding. If you have a net win then PAY THE TAXES because more than likely it shouldn't be that big of a hit and if it is (then that means you won $100K+ and shouldn't have too much to complain about), you aren't going to be able to hide it anyway. It is better to pay them when you owe them then get nailed for fines, penalty, interest, and even worse (prison) by not paying. Even if you don't have the money to pay, not to worry, the IRS will gladly accept a payment plan you can afford!

[Hareeba!]

Not to beat a dead horse but I agree with Chase. To expand on my earlier post. I don't mean to sound sarcastic but honestly does anyone think when the IRS gets a form about $12,000 from Mirage sportsbook or wherever that they immediately start an investigation on the person? Do you realize that the IRS gets over 10,000 of these forms PER DAY for cash transactions over $10,000? Which means they receive 3,650,000 per year. These are not reviewed. They go into a file and are used only if the IRS gets wind that someone might be laundering money or evading taxes. Which usually doesn't come from these form records but rather an FBI, Secret Service or other investigation. At which point the IRS will go to this file and see what information they can garner. If you are not laundering money, are paying your taxes (for the most part), then you could have one of these forms submitted on you every day and it won't matter to the IRS or your taxes. You need to relax. You don't go to Mirage, pickup your $12,000 and all of a sudden some IRS agent gets a form on his desk that says Joe Blow just picked up $12,000 at Mirage Sportsbook in cash and then they open an investigation. It would be impossible and it also is not necessary for them to investigate.

As I said in my initial post in this thread. I have been to Vegas many times, won large cash sums, have had the form submitted on me God only knows how many times and have never gotten a call, letter, or had any issue on my taxes.

Every week there is someone on this forum panicking because they won a large sum of money either in LV or offshore and they are worried about taxes. Most people in any given year on this board lose more than they win so taxes are not an issue. Those on this board that win more than they lose more than likely don't win enough for the IRS to even care about ($5K, $15K, $20K). Those on this board that win more than $25K or $50K in a year betting most likely do this as a business or at the very least have a large enough income to warrant having an accountant handle everything for them. At which point they should not have any tax issues. Tell your accountant everything at that point and you will never have an issue. As someone said previously, you could list on your tax return that you got $80K from drug dealing and the IRS cannot share that with any other government institution so long as you paid your tax on those funds.

Also, winning in a sportsbook is not the same as winning at a slot machine. When you win at the sportsbook and take it in cash, Mirage (or whatever book) will then send a document to the IRS for the record that you got over $10K in cash. Nothing big with no tax impliactions. When you win at a slot machine, any amount over $1,200, then the casino must report that to the IRS because you are given a W-2G. In this case it is imperative you retain the W-2G because the IRS is notified of this win and will expect you to report it as income for that tax year. If you don't, that is an immediate flag for an audit. When you file your taxes for the year then submit all your W-2G's with your taxes, provide the win/loss statement to show your losses (more than likely) so that any taxes are null and void on your gambling winnings or withholding. If you have a net win then PAY THE TAXES because more than likely it shouldn't be that big of a hit and if it is (then that means you won $100K+ and shouldn't have too much to complain about), you aren't going to be able to hide it anyway. It is better to pay them when you owe them then get nailed for fines, penalty, interest, and even worse (prison) by not paying. Even if you don't have the money to pay, not to worry, the IRS will gladly accept a payment plan you can afford!

Excellent post

But I do question one issue:
"you could list on your tax return that you got $80K from drug dealing and the IRS cannot share that with any other government institution so long as you paid your tax on those funds."

That used to be the fact but in many countries I understand that there is an exception when some crimes are involved, including money laundering, drug trafficking and perhaps even paedophilia as well as national security issues.

Is that not the case in the US ?

[cyberinvestor]

Thanks Hareeba.

You are correct that some crimes can be reported using the tax returns. Obviously most criminals would never list their income as coming from crime but you could do it. In the US any crime that does not involve manipulating or effecting the integrity of the money (laundering, counterfeiting) or crimes against humanity (child pronography, child prostitution, war crimes, contracted killings).

You could list prostitution (which is illegal all but in a few Nevada counties), drug dealing provided laundering wasn't involved, bookmaking, and a bunch others.

It is still one of those funny lines because at the end if the day nobody would do it. Most run it through legit businesses for easy cover however people are shocked at how it works and that you actually could list an illegal business.

[SportsMozart]

r u serious ?

asking the forum how to evade tax ?

What? Are you an IRS official? Before betting one should educate himself how the taxing in Vegas sports books relay works. Place your bets in a way that you never have to fill out any forms. Screw them!

[cyberinvestor]

What? Are you an IRS official? Before betting one should educate himself how the taxing in Vegas sports books relay works. Place your bets in a way that you never have to fill out any forms. Screw them!

The point I think Hareeba is try to make (at least it is my point) is do you realize this statement is illegal = "Place your bets in a way that you never have to fill out any forms". It's called structuring and it is a felony. Yes, you would have to get caught and the odds of it are unlikely however it is still a felony. Why break the law when just following the rules has nothing to do with your taxes? This is the point people fail to realize. Just because an IRS form is involved does not automatically mean it has to do with taxes. That is a common misconception. In this case the form involved (for a win over $10,000) has nothing to do with taxes.

My question is why is everyone worried about the forms at the sportsbook when unless you hit a longshot parlay (300-1 or better) you will NEVER have to fill out any forms relating to taxes. I realize many people don't understand the law or the system so the questions are fine. However there are one of these threads every week and it's always how someone is horrified about the tax implications (when none truly exist). Just because the IRS takes the form for transactions over $10,000 doesn't mean it has ANYTHING to do with your taxes. It has to do with money laundering and that is what those forms are used to prevent. They are not used for any purpose when you file your taxes. They go on file and are checked if someone is suspected of money laundering. They are not used for tax assessments.

Here's something people don't realize. If you fail to file a W-2G for a slot win of just $1,200 it will cause you many more problems then if you filed 50 of these over $10,000 documents in any given year.

In the sportsbook unless you hit a 300-1 or better parlay or other odds wager you will never get a W-2G and thereby your win is not reported to the IRS for income purposes. By law you are still supposed to report the income (if it is a net win for the year) but of course what people actually do since nothing is reported varies (but beware of the penalties). In the racebook you must win $600.00 or more AND the odds must be 300-1 or better. So if you hit a $2 trifecta that paid $1,210 or a $1 dollar trifecta that paid $601 or more you would trigger the W2-G requirement. When you cashed the ticket they should not have issued a W-2G if you did not meet both requirements (over $600 and over 300-1 odds). If you do not sign a W2-G nothing is reported to the IRS for tax purposes either in the sportsbook or racebook. That's the key statement.

The other key statement for gaming taxes is if you hit $50,000 on a slot machine most places do not deduct your taxes. If they don't then just file the W2-G with your win/loss statement. For most slot players you will have a net loss and no taxes will be due for your $50,000 hit. If the casino does deduct your taxes (this varies by state) then file your win loss statement and if you lost more than you won, the deduction will be refunded to you since you did not earn an income gambling. If however you had a net win for the year on your slot play, pay the taxes. It is already been reported to the IRS and if they don't catch it right away they always will because the computer will see you didn't file a W2-G when the IRS had one sitting in their system.

[RickySteve]

chips

[goblue12]

Let me buy you lunch some time RickySteve.

[SportsMozart]

The point I think Hareeba is try to make (at least it is my point) is do you realize this statement is illegal = "Place your bets in a way that you never have to fill out any forms". It's called structuring and it is a felony. Yes, you would have to get caught and the odds of it are unlikely however it is still a felony. Why break the law when just following the rules has nothing to do with your taxes? This is the point people fail to realize. Just because an IRS form is involved does not automatically mean it has to do with taxes. That is a common misconception. In this case the form involved (for a win over $10,000) has nothing to do with taxes.

My question is why is everyone worried about the forms at the sportsbook when unless you hit a longshot parlay (300-1 or better) you will NEVER have to fill out any forms relating to taxes. I realize many people don't understand the law or the system so the questions are fine. However there are one of these threads every week and it's always how someone is horrified about the tax implications (when none truly exist). Just because the IRS takes the form for transactions over $10,000 doesn't mean it has ANYTHING to do with your taxes. It has to do with money laundering and that is what those forms are used to prevent. They are not used for any purpose when you file your taxes. They go on file and are checked if someone is suspected of money laundering. They are not used for tax assessments.

Here's something people don't realize. If you fail to file a W-2G for a slot win of just $1,200 it will cause you many more problems then if you filed 50 of these over $10,000 documents in any given year.

In the sportsbook unless you hit a 300-1 or better parlay or other odds wager you will never get a W-2G and thereby your win is not reported to the IRS for income purposes. By law you are still supposed to report the income (if it is a net win for the year) but of course what people actually do since nothing is reported varies (but beware of the penalties). In the racebook you must win $600.00 or more AND the odds must be 300-1 or better. So if you hit a $2 trifecta that paid $1,210 or a $1 dollar trifecta that paid $601 or more you would trigger the W2-G requirement. When you cashed the ticket they should not have issued a W-2G if you did not meet both requirements (over $600 and over 300-1 odds). If you do not sign a W2-G nothing is reported to the IRS for tax purposes either in the sportsbook or racebook. That's the key statement.

The other key statement for gaming taxes is if you hit $50,000 on a slot machine most places do not deduct your taxes. If they don't then just file the W2-G with your win/loss statement. For most slot players you will have a net loss and no taxes will be due for your $50,000 hit. If the casino does deduct your taxes (this varies by state) then file your win loss statement and if you lost more than you won, the deduction will be refunded to you since you did not earn an income gambling. If however you had a net win for the year on your slot play, pay the taxes. It is already been reported to the IRS and if they don't catch it right away they always will because the computer will see you didn't file a W2-G when the IRS had one sitting in their system.

Many things in this country are illegal. For example starting the wars for oil and money and lying about it to the public and generating the false images of weapons of mass destruction. Killing the innocent civilians in other countries is illegal . Prostitution was illegal the last time I checked, yet pick up the newspaper and call the hooker. Weed is illegal , yet half of the NYC is smoking it. Cops confiscating weed , sending guys to jail and then smoking it themselves. So don't come here to sing the ode to the law and IRS. Avoiding the attention and spreading a confidential information about yourself is not illegal. It is advised!

[Hareeba!]

Many things in this country are illegal. For example starting the wars for oil and money and lying about it to the public and generating the false images of weapons of mass destruction. Killing the innocent civilians in other countries is illegal . Prostitution was illegal the last time I checked, yet pick up the newspaper and call the hooker. Weed is illegal , yet half of the NYC is smoking it. Cops confiscating weed , sending guys to jail and then smoking it themselves. So don't come here to sing the ode to the law and IRS. Avoiding the attention and spreading confidential information about yourself is not illegal. It is advised!

a loser's attitude

[cyberinvestor]

Many things in this country are illegal. For example starting the wars for oil and money and lying about it to the public and generating the false images of weapons of mass destruction. Killing the innocent civilians in other countries is illegal . Prostitution was illegal the last time I checked, yet pick up the newspaper and call the hooker. Weed is illegal , yet half of the NYC is smoking it. Cops confiscating weed , sending guys to jail and then smoking it themselves. So don't come here to sing the ode to the law and IRS. Avoiding the attention and spreading a confidential information about yourself is not illegal. It is advised!

The point of my posts and I believe others is that the concern over these IRS forms is unfounded. I doubt many people here are legitimately concerned with getting attention. Most people here are college kids or blue collar gamblers and they have nothing to worry about. That's the point.

Your comments are like these people who are against warrantless wiretapping for terror suspects. People will always say "I don't want the government listening to my calls!!!". Here's a news flash. The government doesn't give a damn about listening to your phone calls. Just like the government doesn't give a damn about anyone on these forums and their gambling so relax about reporting and the forms. Your house isn't going to get raided because you got $9,000 in a wire from a sportsbook offshore.

Yes people do a lot of illegal things like drug dealing, prostitution, and bookies operate openly in many cities. However they have to operate illegally to run their businesses. You as a sports gambler don't have to operate illegally when you cash a ticket in Vegas. You are doing it out of some paranoia that you will be on the grid. What are you, Jason Bourne, KGB, an escaped inmate? So why committ a felony (even if you would probably get away with it) when you don't have to? That is the main point. Do you really think the government give a $hit about your gambling? File the form and be done.

[SportsMozart]

The point of my posts and I believe others is that the concern over these IRS forms is unfounded. I doubt many people here are legitimately concerned with getting attention. Most people here are college kids or blue collar gamblers and they have nothing to worry about. That's the point.

Your comments are like these people who are against warrantless wiretapping for terror suspects. People will always say "I don't want the government listening to my calls!!!". Here's a news flash. The government doesn't give a damn about listening to your phone calls. Just like the government doesn't give a damn about anyone on these forums and their gambling so relax about reporting and the forms. Your house isn't going to get raided because you got $9,000 in a wire from a sportsbook offshore.

Yes people do a lot of illegal things like drug dealing, prostitution, and bookies operate openly in many cities. However they have to operate illegally to run their businesses. You as a sports gambler don't have to operate illegally when you cash a ticket in Vegas. You are doing it out of some paranoia that you will be on the grid. What are you, Jason Bourne, KGB, an escaped inmate? So why committ a felony (even if you would probably get away with it) when you don't have to? That is the main point. Do you really think the government give a $hit about your gambling? File the form and be done.

I don't give a shit about if US government gives a shit about me gambling or not. What I do care about is that IRS will not get penny from me . Nobody get's my name., my address, my phone # . I'm European and just a guest here. Like Friedrich Nietzsche said: Every conglomerate society is based on cruelty, not democracy. That's a case of USA , Russia and China. Real democracy you can only find in small countries in Europe.
So while you a caring the IRS flag suggesting to report in, I say: If you wanna be a pro gambler- fly under the radar, keep your confidentiality , make $100k/month! And instead of giving it to IRS, give to somebody who really needs it!

[Hareeba!]

I don't give a shit about if US government gives a shit about me gambling or not. What I do care about is that IRS will not get penny from me . Nobody get's my name., my address, my phone # . I'm European and just a guest here. Like Friedrich Nietzsche said: Every conglomerate society is based on cruelty, not democracy. That's a case of USA , Russia and China. Real democracy you can only find in small countries in Europe.
So while you a caring the IRS flag suggesting to report in, I say: If you wanna be a pro gambler- fly under the radar, keep your confidentiality , make $100k/month! And instead of giving it to IRS, give to somebody who really needs it!

totally missing the point
what you are advocating is that a player commits a crime out of fear that is totally unfounded
pretty stupid to put yourself into the firing line when you were safe to start with isn't it ?

[cyberinvestor]

totally missing the point what you are advocating is that a player commits a crime out of fear that is totally unfounded pretty stupid to put yourself into the firing line when you were safe to start with isn't it ?

100% correct and Hareeba has hit this point. It's pretty simple.

Mr. Mozart, first of all as a European you don't have to pay taxes on winnings in the US so long as you file as such with Customs when you get back home. US will refund any taxes collected from you.

Everything I have said today applies to rational people which I fear doesn't apply to you. You are taking this to a place of craziness and shocking paranoia. Going off on a variety of macro-political statements that bear no relevance to the situation at hand (a simple $10K+ ticket being cashed in Las Vegas by a guy who is not familiar with such a win). The guy that started this thread asked about IRS forms and I was trying to explain all the implications and ins and outs. What you bring to the discussion is just filibustering and useless dialogue in an effort to seem above and more intellectual than the discussion at hand.

All of my statements apply to the everyday gambler playing on this forum. There is nobody here winning $100K per month. If there is, I guarantee you they do everything by the book. Furthermore if you want to break the rules by all means go ahead. The point of everything I have said in this whole thread is that breaking the rules just isn't necessary for all intents and purposes.

[username474]

Get 9k in cash and the rest in chips. Go back the next day and cash the chips. You will not have to fill out CTR form.

[FreeFall]

Bill R. Good, Jr.
There are three things that are certain in life: death, taxes and change.

[Hareeba!]

Get 9k in cash and the rest in chips. Go back the next day and cash the chips. You will not have to fill out CTR form.

I would be surprised if that is legal. Those drafting the law would surely have covered it in the same way as they have the splitting of wagers to keep under the threshold.

But in any case, what are you worried about ?

[cyberinvestor]

I would be surprised if that is legal. Those drafting the law would surely have covered it in the same way as they have the splitting of wagers to keep under the threshold.

But in any case, what are you worried about ?

It is illegal. It is called "structuring" but the chances of getting caught in this type of situation are limited. However if you ever are caught you forfeit all funds associated with the structuring activity and face penalty and prison. But like we have been saying regardless of the chances of getting caught, why break a law to avoid a concern when the concern is in error (avoiding the $10k reporting out of paranoia).

[username474]

I would be surprised if that is legal. Those drafting the law would surely have covered it in the same way as they have the splitting of wagers to keep under the threshold.

But in any case, what are you worried about ?

It is absolutely legal. The form that they have you fill out is only for cash transactions over 10k. Keep the cash under 10k and there is no need to fill out a CTR.

[username474]

It is illegal. It is called "structuring" but the chances of getting caught in this type of situation are limited. However if you ever are caught you forfeit all funds associated with the structuring activity and face penalty and prison. But like we have been saying regardless of the chances of getting caught, why break a law to avoid a concern when the concern is in error (avoiding the $10k reporting out of paranoia).

It is not structuring when you are not depositing it in a bank. In this case you are just avoiding filling out a CTR by not having a 10k cash transaction.

[cyberinvestor]

It is absolutely legal. The form that they have you fill out is only for cash transactions over 10k. Keep the cash under 10k and there is no need to fill out a CTR.

This is what everyone fails to understand about the legality. Not to beat a dead horse but what you said is "Keep the cash under $10K and there is no need to fill out a CTR" which is called structuring and yes, that is illegal.

Here's the law:

Structuring includes the act of parceling what would otherwise be a large financial transaction into a series of smaller transactions to avoid scrutiny by regulators or law enforcement. Structuring often appears in federal indictments related to money laundering, fraud, and other financial crimes.

Also called the term "smurfing" is derived from the image of the cartoon characters, The Smurfs, having a large group of many small entities. Miami-based lawyer Gregory Baldwin is said to have coined the term in the 1980s. Typically each of the smaller transactions is executed in an amount below some statutory limit that normally does not require a report with a government agency.


In the United States, the Bank Secrecy Act requires the filing of a currency transaction report (CTR) for transactions of more than $10,000 in currency (US or foreign). Institutions suspecting structuring with intent to avoid the law are required to file a suspicious activity report.
Title 31 of the United States Code, section 5324, provides (in part):

No person shall, for the purpose of evading the reporting requirements of section 5313 (a) or 5325 or any regulation prescribed under any such section, the reporting or record keeping requirements imposed by any order issued under section 5326, or the record keeping requirements imposed by any regulation prescribed under section 21 of the Federal Deposit Insurance Act or section 123 of Public Law 91–508— [...] (3) structure or assist in structuring, or attempt to structure or assist in structuring, any transaction with one or more domestic financial institutions. A financial institution is any instition handling domestic cash transactions or payments. These include short term (pay day lenders), check cashing institutions, gaming transactions, pawnbrokers, standard banks and credit unions, thrifts, and any other institution tasked with handling large cash transactions with individuals.

Section 5324 further provides that a violation of this provision may be punished by a fine or up to five years in prison, or both.

For my European friend Mr. Mozart...here are the other countries with laws regarding structuring and their limits for reporting....

Australia A$10,000
Brazil varies
Canada CA$10,000
Fiji FJ$1,100
France €3,000
Germany €15,000
Guyana USD10,000
Ireland €10,000
India Rs. 50,000
Italy €12,500
Lithuania LTL10,000
Netherlands €15,000
New Zealand NZ$10,000
Philippines PHP500,000
Portugal €10,000
Romania €10,000
Spain €3,000
Sweden €10,000
Thailand US$58,000
Turkey US$50,000
United States US$10,000

[cyberinvestor]

I have had clients charged with structuring because they were bringing $9,000 into the US in multiple cash transactions and were caught by US Customs. They had nothing to do with depositing into a bank. Anything you do that avoids a reporting requirement is structuring. This is why you are asked when you enter the US if you are carrying over $10,000 by the US Customs agent. If you say yes, customs will count and verify the money, COLLECT NO TAXES, submit a form to the IRS and give you your money back. It is very easy. If you say no but are lying and US Customs finds over $10,000 on you they are allowed to seize the funds due to failure to declare the currency. You are screwed.

If you win money at a casino in Canada (which is what one client did) and you go back and forth across the border every day to get $9,000 out of Canada from your winnings to avoid the CTR, you are structuring. Plain and simple. If you would like various cases I was involved in on this very topic I will gladly link you to them!

[cyberinvestor]

31 USC 5324 prohibits certain actions by any person who acts with the purpose of evading:

1. 1. The reporting requirements of Section 5313 (Currency Transaction Reports), or
   2. The reporting requirements of Section 5325 (reports required to be made upon the request of the Secretary respecting information required to be recorded upon the sale of certain monetary instruments), or
   3. The reporting requirements of Section 5316 (Report on Exporting & Importing Currency and Monetary Instruments), or
   4. The reporting or recordkeeping requirements imposed by any order issued under section 5326 (Targeting Orders), or
   5. The recordkeeping requirements under Section 21 of the Federal Deposit Insurance Act and Section 123 of Public Law 91-508 relating to funds transfers. See 31 CFR 103.33.

The first part of the statute says plain and simply: If you do something to avoid the reporting requirement of a CTR (whether a bank or IN ANY SITUATION) you have breached this statute and are subject to its penalties.

[cyberinvestor]

At the end of the day very few people get caught with structuring but that does not make it legal. The rule of thumb is if under the normal situation you would be required to file a CTR for what you are doing and you do something that makes it so you don't have to file a CTR, you are structuring or otherwise evading a CTR.

At which point the institution, if they get suspicious of your actions could file an SAR = Suspicious Activity Report. Which will then put you on the government active radar for the next 5-10 years and will ensure all your actions are closely monitored by computer and if the activity becomes more regular, they will then task an agent with your case. At which point you better be SQUEAKY clean.

My client in the US Customs case was caught through the use of multiple SAR's. Over a multiple month period.

[username474]

Though you backed up your point with more then enough evidence, you are missing the point. Taking 9k at a sports book to avoid filling out a CTR is completely different then depositing 9k at a financial institution to avoid filling out a CTR.

[cyberinvestor]

Though you backed up your point with more then enough evidence, you are missing the point. Taking 9k at a sports book to avoid filling out a CTR is completely different then depositing 9k at a financial institution to avoid filling out a CTR.

It's the same law. I agree that perhaps the FBI isn't following sportsbooks as much as they do banks BUT it is still the same law. The law itself does not have to be a financial institution. If the law requires the filing of a CTR and you do something to avoid filling out a CTR you are breaking the law. The key wording of the law is:



31 USC 5324 prohibits certain actions by any person who acts with the purpose of evading:

1. 1. The reporting requirements of Section 5313 (Currency Transaction Reports), or

There is no specificity of the law that says anything about it being related to a bank deposit. The law is open ended to take into account any reporting anywhere. I copied the statute verbatim. As stated above if you are doing something, ANYTHING, to avoid filing a CTR whether it is crossing the border through US Customs, making a deposit at a bank, cashing a sports ticket in a certain way, etc. it falls under the same statute, a statute which is very direct and leaves no openings or excuses.

Here is your sentence: Taking 9k at a sports book to avoid filling out a CTR is completely different then depositing 9k at a financial institution to avoid filling out a CTR.

The law would respond: Are you doing something to avoid filling out a CTR? You own sentence acknowledges you are. Thereby under 31 USC 5324 you have taken an action for the purpose of evading a CTR.

I agree that transactions at sportsbooks are not nearly scrutinized as bank deposits or crossing the border through US Customs HOWEVER it does not change that what someone is doing is illegal. Which is my point. Yes, everyone on these forums could probably structure their sports tickets and get away with it without any problem. Whereas if people structured bank deposits about 10% would get caught. My point in this whole thread though has been why break a law that might haunt you sometime later (busted for drugs and then the FBI finds evidence of these transactions perhaps through SARs filed by the sportsbooks) you have given the government an easy conviction and count to now build a case against you.

In conclusion, why risk any of that? Fill out the CTR because it has no effect on your taxes, do the right thing, and you'll never have an issue. I don't understand the paranoia about filling out a CTR. Usually the paranoia and fear comes because people don't fully understand what those forms are used for and how they work. Once you know them, you will see and understand that they are not a big deal at all and typically will all sit in a computer file after they are filed and never be looked at again.

[Hareeba!]

I always get a laugh when people think they've found a simple solution to avoid some official requirement.

As though all the regulators are so dumb that they never thought of that and left such an obvious loophole.

[sweethook]

hes a good guy