1. #1
    Goat Milk
    Goat Milk's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 03-24-10
    Posts: 25,838
    Betpoints: 10176

    Tmac snubbed from top 75?

    It's a little strange, no? We are talking about a guy who was maybe the best scorer in the nba for 3-4 years in a row. His lack of playoff success really hurt him. But to me, at that time, there was no better players in the league. it was Kobe, it was Shaq, it was AI, and it was Tmac. For a nice 7 year period, it was just those guys at the top until Lebron and Wade started to get good.

    A case could be made for vince carter, but i'm not sure he ever was considered a top 3 player in the world.

  2. #2
    stevenash
    stevenash's Avatar Moderator
    Join Date: 01-17-11
    Posts: 62,346
    Betpoints: 32775

    Did you read the great piece on Petro last week in The Atlantic?
    Fantastic, really got his just props.
    I'll post if you want.

    Petro gets credit for introducing the euro step to the NBA.
    Tons of good information in there on the Euro invasion to the NBA.

  3. #3
    Goat Milk
    Goat Milk's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 03-24-10
    Posts: 25,838
    Betpoints: 10176

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenash View Post
    Did you read the great piece on Petro last week in The Atlantic?
    Fantastic, really got his just props.
    I'll post if you want.

    Petro gets credit for introducing the euro step to the NBA.
    Tons of good information in there on the Euro invasion to the NBA.
    I did not. Was Petro in the top 75? I think maybe his career in the NBA was too short to get a nod on this list. I think he came pretty late to the nba, but i remember watching him play, guy was a stud, very fiery type of guy, but definitely was doncic before doncic existed. That's how good he could have been.

  4. #4
    MinnesotaFats
    MinnesotaFats's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 12-18-10
    Posts: 14,757
    Betpoints: 1664

  5. #5
    Goat Milk
    Goat Milk's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 03-24-10
    Posts: 25,838
    Betpoints: 10176

    Lmao, terrible

  6. #6
    stevenash
    stevenash's Avatar Moderator
    Join Date: 01-17-11
    Posts: 62,346
    Betpoints: 32775

    Yeah, he was in the 40's

    Must, must read.
    I have to copy and paste, The Athletic is subscription only.


    When Drazen Petrovic joined the Portland Trail Blazers in 1989, he already had a hundred nicknames. Most were not subtle. In Europe, fans called him “Mozart,” a tribute to his artistry and flair. One Italian newspaper dubbed him “The Holy Terror from Zagreb.” Another said he was “the white Isiah Thomas.” At times, he was “Petro.” In other moments he was “Draz.” When he starred for Real Madrid, one of the powers of European basketball, he was “Perro Caliente,” the hot dog.
    And then, there was the special moniker from Arvydas Sabonis, the great Lithuanian center and a chief rival on the Soviet national team: He once called him “Clown.”
    Petrovic was probably the best offensive basketball player in the world outside the NBA, a 6-foot-5 guard with deep range, feathery touch and a proto-Eurostep — “The Lawrence Welk move,” as legendary scout Marty Blake put it — but he also was a character, a fiery Croatian virtuoso who hoisted 3-pointers, flipped behind-the-back passes and drove opponents crazy. In 1985, he scored 112 points in one game for Cibona Zagreb. In 1988, he led the former Yugoslavia to a silver medal at the Seoul Olympics. But when he arrived in the NBA, nobody was certain if it would work.
    This is partly because “Mozart,” in this case, possessed a lackluster reputation on the defensive end. But it also was because there had never been a player like him, a foreign star who came of age outside the traditional feeder system of American college basketball. When Petrovic joined the Blazers, he told reporters that he’d come to America to challenge himself, to prove he could play against the best in the world, to be the equivalent of a franchise player.
    If he had to be the first of his kind, he wanted to make sure he was not last.

    Three decades later, it’s easy to forget how the perception of foreign basketball players has changed. Once upon a time, before Dirk and Pau, before the Freak and Joker, before Peja and Kukoc and Manu and Yao and Luka and another dozen players that changed the NBA, there was a league that looked very different, devoid of novel influences and larger talent pools and the Eurostep.
    Consider, for instance, the early days. In the decades after Dr. James Naismith hung the first peach baskets, the sport of basketball began to spiderweb around the globe, debuting at the Olympics in 1936 — where Naismith watched the Americans win gold on a muddy court in Berlin — and taking root all across Europe. The evolution continued in the decades after World War II, when the sport became a favorite behind the Iron Curtain.
    But if the sport was growing around the globe, the NBA was not. Take a cursory glance at the first Europeans to play in the league, and you’ll find a familiar story: The first European player in league history was the Italian-born Hank Biasatti, who grew up in Canada and debuted for the Toronto Huskies of the Basketball Association of America in 1946.
    The second and third (Frido Frey and Charlie Hoefer) were German kids who immigrated to the United States and grew up in New York. The trend continued for decades; foreigners who broke through were often big men who arrived by way of Canada or a U.S. high school. It didn’t help, of course, that the players in Eastern Europe were often walled off from the West, or that international players had to maintain amateur status to compete in the Olympics.
    Consider, too, The Athletic’s NBA 75, which concludes this month and includes just four international players among its ranking of the league’s best players — and only two (No. 24 Giannis Antetokounmpo and No. 21 Dirk Nowitzki) who did not play in college first. (The other two are No. 38 Steve Nash and No. 11 Hakeem Olajuwon.) It’s possible, of course, that Petrovic would be on this list, too, had he not died in a car crash in 1993, just as his career was taking off. He was just 28 years old, and he’d become the first European player to make an All-NBA team. But if his career and life were cut short, his influence is still felt across the league.
    Just consider his path.

    How did the NBA go global? College basketball deserves an assist. Because it wasn’t until the late 1970s and early ’80s, when college basketball coaches started mining talent overseas, that everything started to change. Guy Lewis found Olajuwon in Nigeria and brought him to the University of Houston; Marv Harshman discovered a German foreign exchange student named Detlef Schrempf and recruited him to Washington. Around the same time, Digger Phelps, the coach at Notre Dame, used an old contact to recruit a guard from Yugoslavia. His name: Drazen Petrovic.
    He had grown up in Sibenik (in present-day Croatia), a city along the Adriatic coast. His father was a police officer and his mother was a librarian, and for most of his youth, his only exposure to the NBA had come, in part, through grainy clips on Italian television. Nevertheless, Petrovic quickly took to the sport, following the lead of his older brother, growing into the European version of a gym rat. He starred for the local club, debuted for the Yugoslavian national team — for whom he competed against American colleges on a tour in 1982 — then joined Cibona Zagreb in 1984, spurning Notre Dame along the way. When he helped Yugoslavia win a bronze medal at the 1984 Olympics, he was already on the radar of American scouts and reporters.
    “I don’t think of myself as a phenomenon,” Petrovic once told the Chicago Tribune. “I must play better defense. I need to practice it.”
    As Petrovic blossomed, the basketball world underneath him began to shift. In 1985, the Phoenix Suns took a chance on a big man from Bulgaria named Georgi Glouchkov, the “Balkan Banger,” as he was known. It didn’t work out — Glouchkov was amiable if not that athletic — but perhaps the experiment planted a seed. There was talent elsewhere; you just had to find it.
    The same year Glouchkov returned to Europe, Portland Trail Blazers executive Bucky Buckwalter was formulating his vision. Inspired by his experiences in international basketball — he’d coached the Brazilian national team — he saw foreign players as an under-appreciated asset. You just had to find a way to get them to the States. On the day of the 1986 draft, he shocked the establishment by using two picks on Europeans. In the first round, Portland drafted Sabonis, the adroit giant from the Soviet Republic of Lithuania; in the third, it took a flier on Petrovic, scooping him up one spot in front of Minnesota center John Shasky.
    Petrovic wasn’t quite ready to make the jump; his national team was still eying the 1988 Olympics, where NBA players were ineligible. But when the Yugoslavian national team returned to the United States in the fall of 1986, it was easy to understand what the Blazers were thinking.
    “He’s certainly one of the fine guards in the world,” North Carolina coach Dean Smith said told the Daily Tar Heel in 1986 after Petrovic dropped 35 in an exhibition loss.
    “One of the greatest players I’ve ever seen,” Kentucky coach Eddie Sutton told reporters after Petrovic scored another 32.
    “Petrovic is as fine a guard as there is anywhere,” added Arizona coach Lute Olson.
    Of course, there were still doubters. Future NBA coach Mike D’Antoni competed against him in Europe, held him to an off night and then pondered how he’d do against the best players in the world. Phelps, who had lost a top recruit, believed that Petrovic would have developed better in college. (“You can’t come directly from Europe and think you can be an NBA guard,” he told the Tribune.)
    There were questions about his defense and his John McEnroe demeanor and his “Lawrence Welk move” — the one-two-three steps (he wouldn’t get away with that in the NBA). Perhaps the questions were valid. Maybe the skepticism was fair (Petrovic, for his part, took solace in Schrempf’s early success). But in the end, the doubters also missed one thing: Yes, the European players would have to adjust to the NBA. But the league would also have to adapt to them.

  7. #7
    d2bets
    d2bets's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 08-10-05
    Posts: 39,773
    Betpoints: 21401

    Quote Originally Posted by Goat Milk View Post
    It's a little strange, no? We are talking about a guy who was maybe the best scorer in the nba for 3-4 years in a row. His lack of playoff success really hurt him. But to me, at that time, there was no better players in the league. it was Kobe, it was Shaq, it was AI, and it was Tmac. For a nice 7 year period, it was just those guys at the top until Lebron and Wade started to get good.

    A case could be made for vince carter, but i'm not sure he ever was considered a top 3 player in the world.
    So who would you remove from the list?

  8. #8
    Wrongside
    Only Backdoor'd; never backdoor
    Wrongside's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 09-26-15
    Posts: 3,579
    Betpoints: 773

    Top 75 dunker, sure. I prefer to forget the time period when Tmac was one of the best…horrible basketball

  9. #9
    unde0087
    Did we win?
    unde0087's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 03-27-08
    Posts: 28,105
    Betpoints: 660

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrongside View Post
    Top 75 dunker, sure. I prefer to forget the time period when Tmac was one of the best…horrible basketball
    At least that he didn't punch another coach because he got his ass kicked. But it was someone else's fault

  10. #10
    seaborneq
    It's time to collect
    seaborneq's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 09-08-06
    Posts: 22,556
    Betpoints: 13422

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaFats View Post
    <a rel='nofollow' href='https://postimg.cc/B8Z57ckB' target='_blank'><img src='https://i.postimg.cc/bvk6JmRW/BZZd-ELLIEAEIwr-B.jpg' border='0' alt='BZZd-ELLIEAEIwr-B'/></a><br /><a rel='nofollow' href='https://banks-nearme.com/chase-near-me'>chase bank around here</a><br />
    Is TMac on his knees??

  11. #11
    unde0087
    Did we win?
    unde0087's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 03-27-08
    Posts: 28,105
    Betpoints: 660

    Goat, was the Rams snubbed from that massive blow out you were pushing? Can a get a gold chain? Sorry we were pretending that thread didn't happen.

  12. #12
    alta
    alta's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 09-08-06
    Posts: 1,457
    Betpoints: 10353

    Quote Originally Posted by d2bets View Post
    So who would you remove from the list?
    Easy answer.
    How AD, Anthony Davis made it is beyond my comprehension. I thought perhaps it was a typo, when his name appeared on my screen. AD makes the top 10 "Frail" List, not the Best 75 players in the 75 years of NBA.
    Points Awarded:

    Goat Milk gave alta 2 Betpoint(s) for this post.


  13. #13
    jjgold
    jjgold's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 07-20-05
    Posts: 388,190
    Betpoints: 10

    All these lists of a bunch of BS does it really matter?

  14. #14
    stevenash
    stevenash's Avatar Moderator
    Join Date: 01-17-11
    Posts: 62,346
    Betpoints: 32775

    Quote Originally Posted by jjgold View Post
    All these lists of a bunch of BS does it really matter?
    Those lists have a purpose.
    To provoke sports talk.

  15. #15
    d2bets
    d2bets's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 08-10-05
    Posts: 39,773
    Betpoints: 21401

    Quote Originally Posted by alta View Post
    Easy answer.
    How AD, Anthony Davis made it is beyond my comprehension. I thought perhaps it was a typo, when his name appeared on my screen. AD makes the top 10 "Frail" List, not the Best 75 players in the 75 years of NBA.
    McGrady actually missed a fair bit of time too. His career avg were dragged down by him hanging on. But he really only had like 7 prime seasons. And he was a chucker.

    McGrady not the biggest snub anyway. Easily Dwight Howard has to be on the list. And I'd put Vince Carter over TMac.

  16. #16

  17. #17
    thomorino
    thomorino's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 06-01-17
    Posts: 45,842

    Mcgrady was hurt by a couple things.

    He never played in a major market for most of his career, he played in Toronto, Orlando, and Houston. He also never got out of the first round of the playoffs in his prime because his teammates weren't very good. He didn't have a long career either.

    He is without question a top 75 team, the rankings were dumb.

    He was without question better than Reggie Miller and others on the list - they just had moments in the playoffs people remember because they were on better teams.

  18. #18
    Metatron
    Metatron's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 07-29-10
    Posts: 287
    Betpoints: 187

    For those who did not actually look at the list... it is pretty bad... but McGrady is #55 on the list so no snub. I believe these lists are made poorly to evoke discussion and anger anyways. Views = $$$

  19. #19
    DrunkHorseplayer
    Redskins forever
    DrunkHorseplayer's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 05-15-10
    Posts: 7,120
    Betpoints: 19443

    LeBrton is better than Jordan and it's not close.

  20. #20
    Mac4Lyfe
    Mac4Lyfe's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 01-04-09
    Posts: 46,478
    Betpoints: 10986

    Quote Originally Posted by d2bets View Post
    McGrady actually missed a fair bit of time too. His career avg were dragged down by him hanging on. But he really only had like 7 prime seasons. And he was a chucker.
    McGrady not the biggest snub anyway. Easily Dwight Howard has to be on the list. And I'd put Vince Carter over TMac.
    I knew a bunch of people that worked with the Magic and a couple guys that trained the players at Health South. They all said that TMac refused to workout and most of his injures was because he didn't want to lift weights. They tried everything to get him in the gym but he was just not committed. Probably the number one reason his teams didn't get out of the 1st round. That's on him more than anyone else.


    How could anyone put Tmac ahead of Kyrie, Dhoward, Pau Gasol or Tony Parker? Heck what about Penny Hardaway?

    But why was Damian Lillard on the list? He hasn't done shit.

  21. #21
    MartingaleMikey
    MartingaleMikey's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 01-08-22
    Posts: 121
    Betpoints: 254

    Goatmilk obsessed with thinking he’s black.

    Bets every favorite. Loses 75%
    Nets game 7 vs Bucks 🤣
    Rams -4 Super Bowl 🤣

    Nets with KG and Pierce the best starting 5 ever 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
    Nomination(s):
    This post was nominated 1 time . To view the nominated thread please click here. People who nominated: Sledge187

  22. #22
    thomorino
    thomorino's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 06-01-17
    Posts: 45,842

    Quote Originally Posted by Mac4Lyfe View Post
    I knew a bunch of people that worked with the Magic and a couple guys that trained the players at Health South. They all said that TMac refused to workout and most of his injures was because he didn't want to lift weights. They tried everything to get him in the gym but he was just not committed. Probably the number one reason his teams didn't get out of the 1st round. That's on him more than anyone else.


    How could anyone put Tmac ahead of Kyrie, Dhoward, Pau Gasol or Tony Parker? Heck what about Penny Hardaway?

    But why was Damian Lillard on the list? He hasn't done shit.
    No, that had nothing to do with it. His Orlando teams were not talented at all and they lost to teams that were much better than his teams.

  23. #23
    d2bets
    d2bets's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 08-10-05
    Posts: 39,773
    Betpoints: 21401

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkHorseplayer View Post
    LeBrton is better than Jordan and it's not close.
    here we go again.

  24. #24
    d2bets
    d2bets's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 08-10-05
    Posts: 39,773
    Betpoints: 21401

    Quote Originally Posted by Mac4Lyfe View Post
    I knew a bunch of people that worked with the Magic and a couple guys that trained the players at Health South. They all said that TMac refused to workout and most of his injures was because he didn't want to lift weights. They tried everything to get him in the gym but he was just not committed. Probably the number one reason his teams didn't get out of the 1st round. That's on him more than anyone else.


    How could anyone put Tmac ahead of Kyrie, Dhoward, Pau Gasol or Tony Parker? Heck what about Penny Hardaway?

    But why was Damian Lillard on the list? He hasn't done shit.
    Lillard has as much of a case as AD.

    I just think they named more current guys so as not to offend them, and perhaps on the assumption that they'd eventually get there.

  25. #25
    thomorino
    thomorino's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 06-01-17
    Posts: 45,842

    Quote Originally Posted by d2bets View Post
    Lillard has as much of a case as AD.

    I just think they named more current guys so as not to offend them, and perhaps on the assumption that they'd eventually get there.
    Lillard does not have the same case Anthony Davis does.

    Anthony Davis is a top 5 defensive player in the league when healthy, Lillard plays no defense at all.

    Offensively when healthy they are comprable.

    Portland is at the bottom of the league defensively every year, which is why most years they are out of the playoffs in the first round.
    Points Awarded:

    Mac4Lyfe gave thomorino 1 Betpoint(s) for this post.


  26. #26
    d2bets
    d2bets's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 08-10-05
    Posts: 39,773
    Betpoints: 21401

    Quote Originally Posted by thomorino View Post
    Lillard does not have the same case Anthony Davis does.

    Anthony Davis is a top 5 defensive player in the league when healthy, Lillard plays no defense at all.

    Offensively when healthy they are comprable.

    Portland is at the bottom of the league defensively every year, which is why most years they are out of the playoffs in the first round.
    Lillard is clutch and stays health generally.

    But maybe, I didn't study it that closely. I guess you could make that case.

  27. #27
    shadymcgrady
    shadymcgrady's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 02-27-12
    Posts: 10,036
    Betpoints: 2978

    I'm definitely biased so I'm just going to leave it at narrative and longevity plays a role. Mcgrady was a better player than pierce in nearly every single facet of the game and both enjoyed their primes at the same time yet pierce is in and tmac is out.

    Pierce was a 30 win team as the best player until Garnett bailed him out and Antoine walker before kg. Championships and longevity played a part

  28. #28
    stevenash
    stevenash's Avatar Moderator
    Join Date: 01-17-11
    Posts: 62,346
    Betpoints: 32775

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkHorseplayer View Post
    LeBrton is better than Jordan and it's not close.
    Explain?

  29. #29
    thomorino
    thomorino's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 06-01-17
    Posts: 45,842

    Quote Originally Posted by shadymcgrady View Post
    I'm definitely biased so I'm just going to leave it at narrative and longevity plays a role. Mcgrady was a better player than pierce in nearly every single facet of the game and both enjoyed their primes at the same time yet pierce is in and tmac is out.

    Pierce was a 30 win team as the best player until Garnett bailed him out and Antoine walker before kg. Championships and longevity played a part
    Pierce belongs on the list, he was very good in big games, and he was a closer. The Celtics were horrible when they drafted him and were only winning 30 games, Pierce had plenty of success before Garnett got there, and Antonie Walker was nothing special, Pierce was better than him.

    Mcgrady's best years were better than Pierce's best years, but Pierce had far more big moments in the playoff s and a longer career.

  30. #30
    d2bets
    d2bets's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 08-10-05
    Posts: 39,773
    Betpoints: 21401

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenash View Post
    Explain?
    He's full of sheeyit. Jordan dominated the 90's and just demoralized his opponents through the finals. Yes, he made his team better. Just can't ignore Lebron's relative lack of success in the finals. And I know points isn't everything, but Lebron's highest was 31.4 MJ beat that 6 times. Now because of the two retirements, Lebron has had a much longer career already, so it depends how you want to weight that. But again, Jordan won the 6 ring in 6 consecutive seasons when he played the full season. Domination in a way that Lebron hasn't.

  31. #31
    thomorino
    thomorino's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 06-01-17
    Posts: 45,842

    Quote Originally Posted by d2bets View Post
    He's full of sheeyit. Jordan dominated the 90's and just demoralized his opponents through the finals. Yes, he made his team better. Just can't ignore Lebron's relative lack of success in the finals. And I know points isn't everything, but Lebron's highest was 31.4 MJ beat that 6 times. Now because of the two retirements, Lebron has had a much longer career already, so it depends how you want to weight that. But again, Jordan won the 6 ring in 6 consecutive seasons when he played the full season. Domination in a way that Lebron hasn't.
    Jordan is the greatest, he did not win 6 in 6 consecutive seasons though, he missed one year for retirement and lost 1 year to Orlando in the semifinals.

    Lebron was never a great 4th quarter scorer, Jordan was the greatest 4th quarter scorer in the history of the NBA, with many clutch shots in big moments.

  32. #32
    ThaTopMoron
    Body-Bags
    ThaTopMoron's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 04-30-10
    Posts: 26,513
    Betpoints: 6759

    if jordan was numero uno then the list is LEGIT

    sometimes i forget about TMAC altogether

    let's put him at 77

  33. #33
    Mac4Lyfe
    Mac4Lyfe's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 01-04-09
    Posts: 46,478
    Betpoints: 10986

    Quote Originally Posted by thomorino View Post
    No, that had nothing to do with it. His Orlando teams were not talented at all and they lost to teams that were much better than his teams.
    I don’t know but all those people in the Magic front office believe McGrady was not committed to winning.

  34. #34
    thomorino
    thomorino's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 06-01-17
    Posts: 45,842

    Quote Originally Posted by Mac4Lyfe View Post
    I don’t know but all those people in the Magic front office believe McGrady was not committed to winning.
    The eye test and his numbers say otherwise. The rosters of those teams was bad.

  35. #35
    bigtymer56
    bigtymer56's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 07-31-12
    Posts: 4,736
    Betpoints: 8807

    Quote Originally Posted by ThaTopMoron View Post
    if jordan was numero uno then the list is LEGIT

    sometimes i forget about TMAC altogether

    let's put him at 77
    Good thing for him he had that 13 points in 33 secs against the spurs or he would be remembered even less.

    Cant be top 75 when you couldn't get any squads to the second round.

12 Last
Top