[SBR Forum]

5Dimes US Market Exit: Update

5Dimes announced Monday that they are exiting the US market. Bets from US players will no longer be accepted as of September 21. Players have until September 25 to request their balances. Funds not requested by this date will be managed by a third-party claims administrator.

What is currently in dispute is how 5Dimes has opted to handle futures bets that would settle after their September 25 deadline. 5Dimes’ position is that these bets will be refunded after players contact them.

Numerous complaints have been shared on SBR Forum and Twitter regarding this decision. Basic bookmaking precedent is that accepted bets must be honored. When sportsbooks have exited countries in the past, player bets have been honored. The only alternative to settling bets normally is to pay them at fair market value.

Discussions with 5Dimes continue on how they are handling these futures bets. Updates will be posted as they become available

[dmm]

Thanks for the update! This doesn't affect me as I'm not in the US, but as a 5Dimes customer, I want them to do the right thing. Paying out futures at fair market value definitely seems like the right thing to do.

[RedApples]

Thanks for the update but this is putting things way too nicely. To only state the issues with futures is that the bets aren't being honored, and should be graded according to the current market value on them instead of being refund, totally misses the issue that they are grading losses on markets that they will not grade any winners for.

It would've been nice to see it stated that 5Dimes stance is that they will refund wagers on markets with open bets, but will not refund the bets that lost on the same market. While I agree the issue should only be that open bets currently should be handled appropriately, we cannot gloss over what they are actually doing.

[Hugo de Naranja]

Thanks for the update but this is putting things way too nicely. To only state the issues with futures is that the bets aren't being honored, and should be graded according to the current market value on them instead of being refund, totally misses the issue that they are grading losses on markets that they will not grade any winners for.

It would've been nice to see it stated that 5Dimes stance is that they will refund wagers on markets with open bets, but will not refund the bets that lost on the same market. While I agree the issue should only be that open bets currently should be handled appropriately, we cannot gloss over what they are actually doing.

Totally agree with RedApples.

[Venom OG]

I agree with RedApples as well.

Also, it would be nice to mention how they are handling parlays that have futures in them, as well as open parlays, as this is a similar but distinct issue IMO.

People who have parlays with futures in them (and legs that have already won) are not only facing the prospect of losing the equity they've gained in the futures themselves, but also having their wins turned into pushes, which is outright theft.

So it's not just a matter of "accepted bets must be honored" but (arguably) the more important and quite fundamental issue of bets won being honored.

Anyone who played a parlay, won several legs and has one final leg to be decided after some arbitrary date unknown to him at the time of placing the bet, is not at fault in any way. If the book needs to pull out of the market, that's their issue, and the obvious solution is to at the very least cancel any unsettled bets or open spots in the parlay and pay out based on legs won. Anything else is criminal.

So even though this issue is similar to what is happening with futures, I think it deserves mention separately because IMO the wrongdoing here is even more blatant -- equity in parlays that have winners in them is so easily calculated and the solution is so cut and dried.

[shari91]

Thank you for the update.

[milwaukee mike]

I agree with RedApples as well.

Also, it would be nice to mention how they are handling parlays that have futures in them, as well as open parlays, as this is a similar but distinct issue IMO.

People who have parlays with futures in them (and legs that have already won) are not only facing the prospect of losing the equity they've gained in the futures themselves, but also having their wins turned into pushes, which is outright theft.

So it's not just a matter of "accepted bets must be honored" but (arguably) the more important and quite fundamental issue of bets won being honored.

Anyone who played a parlay, won several legs and has one final leg to be decided after some arbitrary date unknown to him at the time of placing the bet, is not at fault in any way. If the book needs to pull out of the market, that's their issue, and the obvious solution is to at the very least cancel any unsettled bets or open spots in the parlay and pay out based on legs won. Anything else is criminal.

So even though this issue is similar to what is happening with futures, I think it deserves mention separately because IMO the wrongdoing here is even more blatant -- equity in parlays that have winners in them is so easily calculated and the solution is so cut and dried.

yes the open parlays are pretty easy to calculate

becomes difficult to calculate some sort of value on the nba futures when the conference championships will be midstream on the 21st... what date do you pick?

sucks for most bets but there are some situations that are better for the player being cancelled, so they aren't really stealing on every future bet by cancelling them

10/13/2020 12:00:01 PM NBA Props Basketball 45008 Field wins NBA Championship -1,300*vs Boston Celtics win NBA Champ

and now that they've been cancelling futures for the past week how would they handle it?

1) players with equity that just had their bets cancelled would be mad, and bets with negative equity that get downgraded would be mad
2) if it takes 4 days to manually cancel bets, how long would it take to determine value on each of those bets? probably too long to cash out before the 25th

[Shifty]

Bettors with negative equity on futures still expect full refunds based on their original notice. Clippers not to win NBA, etc.

[ABEHONEST]

Just as I was about to give up on any back up coming from SBR members, finally, some honorable & common sense opinions are appearing.
Yes, the stench of not paying futures in the only fair and honorable manner, could/would linger on "any" Sportsbooks , maybe forever, if this Book doesn't "Do the right thing?"

How could we ever again deposit our hard earned funds and play with complete worryfree and peace of mind without the possibility of what this Book truly wants to do our funds, and having the same freefall, leading to other Sportsbooks, getting the same idea?
Concerning this single Book right now; her clients have placed wagers, according to their many guidelining rules, rules implemented to not only keep you in line on any or all wagers, but also, make it as tough as possible with those same rules, so, you'll need not worry about too much winning any bets in a consistent manner.
Okay, we agreed and accepted it as fair play.

I know my carefree gambling days will be all over if this Book is allowed this fiasco,along with their corrupted thinking of dismissing all futures as if were a parlay ticket on a horse wager, where the ticket already has 3 winners and all those winners now to be riding on this horse, who is abruptly scratched from his race, because of being found to be lame.
Would the ticket manager now offer you a complete refund as a scratched ticket on this already processed, non-losing ticket?

We don't accept scratched tickets when they have NO LOSERS to be found.
It doesn't work that Mr. Book, and no way in hell would it ever under any similar circumstances!

.We must reject the possible fiascos at 100% before it finds wings, and especially, the same exact words of rejection are needed from all offshore gambling Books, or any and all Sportsbooks connected to USA players.

[RedApples]

yes the open parlays are pretty easy to calculate

becomes difficult to calculate some sort of value on the nba futures when the conference championships will be midstream on the 21st... what date do you pick?

sucks for most bets but there are some situations that are better for the player being cancelled, so they aren't really stealing on every future bet by cancelling them

10/13/2020 12:00:01 PM NBA Props Basketball 45008 Field wins NBA Championship -1,300*vs Boston Celtics win NBA Champ

and now that they've been cancelling futures for the past week how would they handle it?

1) players with equity that just had their bets cancelled would be mad, and bets with negative equity that get downgraded would be mad
2) if it takes 4 days to manually cancel bets, how long would it take to determine value on each of those bets? probably too long to cash out before the 25th

You don't understand the issue. I clearly explained how they are the exact same scenario in the other thread. You are trying to grade the bets in one way, where you could apply that same logic to the parlay as well. The open leg of the parlay could be calculated the same way to get the current EV of the parlay, if you wanted to go that route and then pay it out. What you are advocating for is to no action the final leg of the parlay, which then applied to the futures market in the same exact way (which would suck but not be stealing), is to refund the entire market.

You're making an issue out of something that isn't there by staying with your first inclination and not applying the same standard for one to the other. It's a market. You grade it and it pays out based on how you grade it, the same thing will happen with an open bet in a parlay as it will an open bet anywhere else. No market should have a losers without winners. They are just refunding all open bets no matter the scenario while having graded losers.

It's all easy to calculate. You grade a winner, and you pay out. Or you cancel a market and you pay out. Or you prorate the value left and you pay out. It applies to everything the same. Unless you are trying to steal, then you don't grade the market appropriately and you just click 'refund' for open bets.

[RedApples]

yes the open parlays are pretty easy to calculate

becomes difficult to calculate some sort of value on the nba futures when the conference championships will be midstream on the 21st... what date do you pick?

sucks for most bets but there are some situations that are better for the player being cancelled, so they aren't really stealing on every future bet by cancelling them

10/13/2020 12:00:01 PM NBA Props Basketball 45008 Field wins NBA Championship -1,300*vs Boston Celtics win NBA Champ

and now that they've been cancelling futures for the past week how would they handle it?

1) players with equity that just had their bets cancelled would be mad, and bets with negative equity that get downgraded would be mad
2) if it takes 4 days to manually cancel bets, how long would it take to determine value on each of those bets? probably too long to cash out before the 25th

The only part you're touching on that has any part of the issue here is the fact that they are refunding open bets that have negative equity and likely refunding bets that have positive equity.

But this is also the problem with people who don't understand the issue, and it's letting it look like they are handling things properly. Grading equity is not part of the problem as it's not part of the problem in final legs of parlays. You can grade based on equity if you want, and that would in most peoples eyes be the 2nd to most fair scenario after letting bets ride (up for debate, but irrelevant right now). The next most fair scenario would be to no action all bets. What certainly isn't fair, is to refund bets with negative equity while refunding bets with positive equity, and grading bets in the same markets as losses. That's stealing.

I know you and others are happy that they have losing propositions that are being paid out as refunds. You're getting a great deal while the rest of us are literally getting stolen from because 5Dimes stance is to free roll on the market. But it's nice you gained value on the bets and got refunds. Take the money, feel shame about it, and move on. Seriously.


Also just so you know, the 'refunds' that some people are getting for open futures with negative equity, are not based on some hard date. All open bets since the announcement that have no chance of ever being graded a winner, are subject to being graded a loser if you cannot get 5Dimes to refund you before it loses.

[SBR Forum]

Thanks for the update but this is putting things way too nicely. To only state the issues with futures is that the bets aren't being honored, and should be graded according to the current market value on them instead of being refund, totally misses the issue that they are grading losses on markets that they will not grade any winners for.

It would've been nice to see it stated that 5Dimes stance is that they will refund wagers on markets with open bets, but will not refund the bets that lost on the same market. While I agree the issue should only be that open bets currently should be handled appropriately, we cannot gloss over what they are actually doing.

Hi RedApples,

Thank you for your post. The expectation is this gets resolved. There's still time and a lot going on behind the scenes. This update was to let readers know we're in the midst of a dialogue with 5Dimes. At this point going full-court press on them is premature but rest assured we are in full agreement, because yeah, you're absolutely right, the reason the open bets must be honored or paid out at fair market value is to avoid a freeroll like you're describing. And really, even if hypothetically there were zero losses booked, you still can't cancel bets.

[RedApples]

Hi RedApples,

Thank you for your post. The expectation is this gets resolved. There's still time and a lot going on behind the scenes. This update was to let readers know we're in the midst of a dialogue with 5Dimes. At this point going full-court press on them is premature but rest assured we are in full agreement, because yeah, you're absolutely right, the reason the open bets must be honored or paid out at fair market value is to avoid the freeroll you're describing. And really, even if hypothetically there were zero losses booked, you still can't cancel bets.

I appreciate it! As do all of us I'm sure. Thank you for taking the time and for reading the posts!

Sadly they have already started to cancel bets and offer a refund. I'm okay with them cancelling the markets even though I stand to lose money. But the free rolling cannot be.

I also would have to respectfully disagree that it's premature, only because they have already started to refund bets on futures markets, and paying those people out. So they stand to LOSE a lot of money if then they do the right thing and pay out all open bets at the current market value. The only scenario where they didn't lose money and players didn't lose money, is to refund the entire market. That would mean going back and grading all bets that lost on markets that are being refunded and grading them all as no action, and putting tons of money in tons of accounts.

I think we're past the part of no return on handling this thing properly, unless they plan on taking a massive loss. Which is lol at this point.

[Roka1115]

I have a futures bet on the presidential election. I made this bet several months ago and by doing this entailed much greater risk. There are many more things that could have happened over the last several months than the next 40 days. This is not a sporting event that has not occurred, this wager is occurring as we speak and going well from my point of view. Five Dimes has reneged on a bet they are behind on. They have offered to refund my bet but they have not done so, I have waited 3 days.

I am worried about the money but getting my money back is not really break even. IS five Dimes refunding futures bets that they are sure to collect on. The companies choice of using Sept 25th as a cutoff date is also arbitrary.
I have been a customer of 5dimes for over 10 years, never had a problem.
Is rhere a legal remedy? What can be done?

[dmm]

Just spoke with customer support to request my payment be increased to my entire balance. I don't trust 5Dimes. How are they rated so high here on SBR?

[RedApples]

I have a futures bet on the presidential election. I made this bet several months ago and by doing this entailed much greater risk. There are many more things that could have happened over the last several months than the next 40 days. This is not a sporting event that has not occurred, this wager is occurring as we speak and going well from my point of view. Five Dimes has reneged on a bet they are behind on. They have offered to refund my bet but they have not done so, I have waited 3 days.

I am worried about the money but getting my money back is not really break even. IS five Dimes refunding futures bets that they are sure to collect on. The companies choice of using Sept 25th as a cutoff date is also arbitrary.
I have been a customer of 5dimes for over 10 years, never had a problem.
Is rhere a legal remedy? What can be done?

Please read the previous posts in this and the other thread. You aren't helping matters by qualifying your bet versus other 'sporting events' that are in actuality the same thing.

Your question is present in the posts directly above you. That is the issue that is being dealt with since the start of the thread. It is the same issue for sports and politics alike.

Don't know about the legal aspect. Be be assured that 5Dimes is taking the course of stealing money from players by refunding futures bets that they are sure to collect on. They have free rolled us. Unless at this point they decide they are going to lose money by means of a goodwill gesture.

[PD77]

Just spoke with customer support to request my payment be increased to my entire balance. I don't trust 5Dimes. How are they rated so high here on SBR?

Because they had been rock solid for almost 20 years. After Tony was murdered in 2018 they digressed to this. He spent 20 years building it and someone wrecked it in less than two.

The real question is why is BETANYSPORTS so highly rated on SBR?

[PD77]

RedApples, I thought you pulled out of 5Dimes back in March because the writing was on the wall? You called it but did you not follow your own instinct or are these futures/parlays from before March?

requested my final monies out of 5d. completely done with them. 15 percent bonus? nooooo thanks. writing is on the wall.

[RedApples]

RedApples, I thought you pulled out of 5Dimes back in March because the writing was on the wall? You called it but did you not follow your own instinct or are these futures/parlays from before March?

I did pull out of 5Dimes in March. It's not worth getting into my personal issue here because I only want to advocate for all players to be treated fairly, which is the only way to get things handled, rather than what will work out the 'best' way for me. But yes my pending bets were all placed before that post. I can promise you that even if I didn't have any pending bets with 5Dimes at all, so long as I was cognizant of the issue I would still be talking about the different sides and showing the scam. I think my other posts on other issues will show that to be true.

Thanks for the reference to that post. I hadn't seen it in a while. Not looking to pat myself on the back but I am deeply saddened that I was banned for my condemnation of 5Dimes at the time, and still we are dealing with misinformation and bias in support of 5Dimes here in this scenario.

[PD77]

I did pull out of 5Dimes in March. It's not worth getting into my personal issue here because I only want to advocate for all players to be treated fairly, which is the only way to get things handled, rather than what will work out the 'best' way for me. But yes my pending bets were all placed before that post. I can promise you that even if I didn't have any pending bets with 5Dimes at all, so long as I was cognizant of the issue I would still be talking about the different sides and showing the scam. I think my other posts on other issues will show that to be true.

Thanks for the reference to that post. I hadn't seen it in a while. Not looking to pat myself on the back but I am deeply saddened that I was banned for my condemnation of 5Dimes at the time, and still we are dealing with misinformation and bias in support of 5Dimes here in this scenario.

Gotcha, good thing you weren’t here for Bet Islands, you would’ve lost it for sure.

[milwaukee mike]

redapples, i totally understand the situation, and rest assured i have more futures with positive equity that would be cancelled as well.

so no, it’s not a lack of empathy, it’s more a case of “happy i get paid most of it” and would eat a couple grand in losses, based on how similar situations have gone in the past

[RedApples]

redapples, i totally understand the situation, and rest assured i have more futures with positive equity that would be cancelled as well.

so no, it’s not a lack of empathy, it’s more a case of “happy i get paid most of it” and would eat a couple grand in losses, based on how similar situations have gone in the past

becomes difficult to calculate some sort of value on the nba futures when the conference championships will be midstream on the 21st... what date do you pick?

sucks for most bets but there are some situations that are better for the player being cancelled, so they aren't really stealing on every future bet by cancelling them

With all due respect, you did not understand the situation. You might now, but you certainly did not with your first post.

They ARE stealing on every future by cancelling them. You said that they AREN'T. They are NOT cancelling the wagers that lost on the same market. You are only focusing on how they should grade open bets now, and whether or not they should do it based on equity. That is a totally separate issue to the theft of the market. The theft of the market is the SAME issue as the parlays issue.

You might get it now, doesn't seem like it. Certainly missed it on your first post. They are stealing from the futures market by pocketing on losing wagers.

[juc004]

Agree entirely with Red Apples. These guys are flat out stealing. They cancelled my Celtics clippers +1800 for a dime now it’s under +400. All that equity was stolen.

The real horror will be if they fully void winning legs on pending parlays. I’m sure we’ve all seen the guy with the $350 to win $350k VGK ticker left. The equity in that ticket is close to $100,000 if they are tied 2-2...and they want to just give him his $350 dollar wager back?

[PharaohUB]

You guys are over complicating this. Pick a point in time maybe like 2am on 25th and calculate the market value of open bets based on live odds. If your last leg has 90% chance of hitting you get somewhere around 90% of the parley payout if it hits. No need to do all this refunding crap. I can’t imagine it being that hard. I work with data and computer systems professionally. They are beautiful things. What 5 dimes really should be doing is paying out their positions to another book using a similar formula. And transferring over the bets and letting that book pay you out. That would reduce customer service problems and be easier/fairer for account holders.

[BuckyOne]

Can you imagine the uproar this would be causing if somebody in Nevada tried this? I would think if 5Dimes does have truthful intentions of staying in business in other jurisdictions this atrocity is enough to ruin their reputation and dry up their customer base. It is time to change their rating from A+ to F (blacklisted / stay away).

Nobody, anywhere should play at this place / cash in / whoever is calling the shots now has already ruined a perfectly good sportsbook and should not be trusted in the future!

[milwaukee mike]

With all due respect, you did not understand the situation. You might now, but you certainly did not with your first post.

They ARE stealing on every future by cancelling them. You said that they AREN'T. They are NOT cancelling the wagers that lost on the same market. You are only focusing on how they should grade open bets now, and whether or not they should do it based on equity. That is a totally separate issue to the theft of the market. The theft of the market is the SAME issue as the parlays issue.

You might get it now, doesn't seem like it. Certainly missed it on your first post. They are stealing from the futures market by pocketing on losing wagers.

they are not the same as a betonline that only takes YES celtics win the championship... 5d also takes the NO on those bets.

that’s why i said they aren’t stealing on every futures bet.

from day 1 i said the only fair thing would be to let the futures play out, either at betanysports or through the administrator

[ABEHONEST]

You guys are over complicating this. Pick a point in time maybe like 2am on 25th and calculate the market value of open bets based on live odds. If your last leg has 90% chance of hitting you get somewhere around 90% of the parley payout if it hits. No need to do all this refunding crap. I can’t imagine it being that hard. I work with data and computer systems professionally. They are beautiful things. What 5 dimes really should be doing is paying out their positions to another book using a similar formula. And transferring over the bets and letting that book pay you out. That would reduce customer service problems and be easier/fairer for account holders.

Good idea.

[RoyBacon]

You guys are over complicating this. Pick a point in time maybe like 2am on 25th and calculate the market value of open bets based on live odds. If your last leg has 90% chance of hitting you get somewhere around 90% of the parley payout if it hits. No need to do all this refunding crap. I can’t imagine it being that hard. I work with data and computer systems professionally. They are beautiful things. What 5 dimes really should be doing is paying out their positions to another book using a similar formula. And transferring over the bets and letting that book pay you out. That would reduce customer service problems and be easier/fairer for account holders.

Red Apples and others have said this.

It's not at all complicated. EVERY future bet has a current/present fair value, even if it is $0.00.

And 5Dimes has a profit on all these markets at fair value!(the vig)

Fugging dumbest thing I've ever seen.

[BuckyOne]

LOL and we have seen some dumb things. A close second place is voiding bets that had been graded months ago after determining they were correlated parlays.

In this case the gaming commission in Nevada would have suspended the gaming license of 5Dimes and fined them.

[RedApples]

they are not the same as a betonline that only takes YES celtics win the championship... 5d also takes the NO on those bets.

that’s why i said they aren’t stealing on every futures bet.

from day 1 i said the only fair thing would be to let the futures play out, either at betanysports or through the administrator

That certainly isn't why you said what you said. You were qualifying futures bets; not an extreme example of a futures bet where they won't be stealing from the market.

Even with the example you just gave where you would be betting Yes/No on Celtics to win the championship, they are stealing from that market too because all other teams that were graded NO to win the championship are staying graded as LOSSES, without grading out any WINNERS.

Listen, I'm glad you got a refund on a bet that had negative equity. I also don't even care if you understand the issue.

But please don't muddle the facts. This needs to be made VERY CLEAR. 5Dimes is freerolling ALL FUTURES BETS where they are grading out LOSERS from that market and not grading out winners. That includes a YES/NO for the Celtics. The only scenario where this WOULDN'T exist, is for a future that NO LOSSES COULD HAVE BEEN GRADED FOR THE MARKET, ie next years Super Bowl.

I don't know how to put it any clearer. I'm glad from day 1 you said the only fair thing would be to let futures play out. We are WAYYYYY past that. Everyone knows that, no one is confused about that. But past the part of being what would be the FAIR thing to do, 5Dimes CANNOT STEAL. Anyone who is getting good deals on their cancellations, you are taking money that is now STOLEN money. Please, please please, if you have any decency, advocate for 5Dimes not to steal and understand the situation. It takes about 2 minutes to read just one of the posts that analyzes it.

[RedApples]

Red Apples and others have said this.

It's not at all complicated. EVERY future bet has a current/present fair value, even if it is $0.00.

And 5Dimes has a profit on all these markets at fair value!(the vig)

Fugging dumbest thing I've ever seen.

It's not dumb, its thievery. Yes they would profit if they graded all of these markets at the current fair value. But that pays a lot less money than simply refunding all the open bets. Because their real profit on the market is in pocketing the graded losers, not paying out prorated amounts for the 'winners 'now.

[pimike]

Because they had been rock solid for almost 20 years. After Tony was murdered in 2018 they digressed to this. He spent 20 years building it and someone wrecked it in less than two.

The real question is why is BETANYSPORTS so highly rated on SBR?

I’m telling you from sources his wife is to blame. I tend to believe she is part of this problem.

As for BAS, I am concerned but hope they take over as the next great book.

[70'sMan]

I’m telling you from sources his wife is to blame. I tend to believe she is part of this problem.

As for BAS, I am concerned but hope they take over as the next great book.

Just speculating. The only thing that makes logical sense is that Tony's estate is going to settle and his wife will assume his ownership interest around 9/25. If they are not servicing the US at that time she cannot be charged.

[Bothetic]

Just speculating. The only thing that makes logical sense is that Tony's estate is going to settle and his wife will assume his ownership interest around 9/25. If they are not servicing the US at that time she cannot be charged.

I guess it's obvious that leaving the bets as they are is the thing to do, if it's really not possible then fair market value appears to be the obvious thing. But I agree that this seems to be a move to protect the estate settlement, nice observation.

[PD77]

I’m telling you from sources his wife is to blame. I tend to believe she is part of this problem.

As for BAS, I am concerned but hope they take over as the next great book.

I’ve read a few articles mentioning this but they are as credible as the ones speculating this is a stunt to resurrect Tony. Either way, as far as I’m concerned, 5Dimes is finished and there is no way in hell I’ll ever play at Betanysports. They screwed up and 5Dimes can take their “future US customer plans, that will reward your loyalty with extraordinary gaming experiences.” And stick it up their ass. Costa Rica is still the Wild West of online gambling and there isn’t a damn thing SBR or anyone else can do to help customers unless 5dimes decides they want to.