[blankoblanco]

I'm figuring it's a side move since you've been focusing on that, plus advantages on the side tend to be easier to quantify

Naturally I assume we don't want to leave ourselves open to an unbalanced edge which I believe rules out the top side

I think it's 7? My reasoning is we're able to play it without flipping the purple piece to the upper-right so we don't give them an exploitable unbalanced edge. When/if purple takes 8, we can take to the left and then gain another move by balancing the edge ourselves on the right. Hopefully that makes sense

If it's something not on the side then I have no idea lol

[JohnGalt2341]

I'm figuring it's a side move since you've been focusing on that, plus advantages on the side tend to be easier to quantify

Naturally I assume we don't want to leave ourselves open to an unbalanced edge which I believe rules out the top side

I think it's 7? My reasoning is we're able to play it without flipping the purple piece to the upper-right so we don't give them an exploitable unbalanced edge. When/if purple takes 8, we can take to the left and then gain another move by balancing the edge ourselves on the right. Hopefully that makes sense

If it's something not on the side then I have no idea lol

Exactly right. Even if Purple takes the spot just left of #8(this is the only spot Purple should now take on that side as creating an unbalanced edge here would not even be possible) Green still would have created an extra move. Anytime you can create extra moves for yourself on the sides it's virtually always a good thing as long as you don't have an easily exploitable unbalanced edge.

I wanted to also show why Purple's previous move was bad that allowed move #7 but... he didn't have a lot of other good options so... no matter where he moved it was going to be bad. But just try to keep it in mind when you're playing near the sides that you don't give your opponents opportunities like this.

[JohnGalt2341]

25 point Hexersi challenge

What's the best move for Green?

[blankoblanco]

I'm not very confident on this one. I have a guess but will see if Daniel wants to take a crack at it first

[Daniel Espinosa]

#16. That way purple cant make moves in the upper wall

[JohnGalt2341]

#16. That way purple cant make moves in the upper wall

Exactly right. By Green moving to #16 he takes away Purple's move of just left of #16.

[blankoblanco]

Cool, that was my guess too, just wasn't sure if there was something better that I was missing. GJ

[blankoblanco]

I think I've lost a reaally weird game to winbig. Never had a game like this before. My position felt intuitively good, but it turns out my mobility is useless since he can just pretty much systematically wipe me out after each move?

No idea where I went wrong really, just wasn't spread out enough? And maybe there's even a way to win from #24 but I can't see it

[JohnGalt2341]

I was looking at an old game vs game vs Toptal. He was killing me early and then he went for a "Closed 2" on the lower right side. And then the same on the bottom side. I made him pay for both of them and that got me back in the game. Anyway... this game is a really useful tool to learn from because although Toptal is a great player he still makes mistakes on the sides but most players don't make him pay for it. Anyway... I thought the play below was particularly good.. this one is debatable I suppose but i would definitely argue for the play I made.

25 Point Hexversi Challenge

What's the best move for Green?

[JohnGalt2341]

I think I've lost a reaally weird game to winbig. Never had a game like this before. My position felt intuitively good, but it turns out my mobility is useless since he can just pretty much systematically wipe me out after each move?

No idea where I went wrong really, just wasn't spread out enough? And maybe there's even a way to win from #24 but I can't see it

I just looked in. Very interesting game. I've had games like this before. When players are super aggressive you have to be really careful.

This is nitpicking here but you should have waited for move #14 until you could do the combo. You weren't able to take that extra spot because you had that green at the top. You should have waited until it was gone and then went to that spot so you could finish the combo.

Move #19 was an error for Green in my opinion. This is a VERY common error. Purple is going for a "Closed 2". I punish these people because I think Closed 2's are a weak move most of the time. So... how do you exploit it? The spot you moved in move #19 you should have waited for Purple to take that spot. After Purple takes that spot you should eventually be able to turn it into an unbalanced edge.

This is a really interesting game. Other than those 2 moves I wouldn't say there was anything that stood out to me. There are some things that I would have done differently but nothing really major.

When I am playing a really aggressive player I often just try to grab at least 1 piece on at least 1 side. This should prevent you from running into most problems like this. Another thing I do is I try to lock in some of my pieces. In situations like this I would usually offer up all corners where they have an unbalanced edge as long as you can wedge in if they take the corner. This should lock up some of your pieces and prevent you from getting eliminated. I usually thrive in games like these but I know they can be tricky.

[Daniel Espinosa]

I was looking at an old game vs game vs Toptal. He was killing me early and then he went for a "Closed 2" on the lower right side. And then the same on the bottom side. I made him pay for both of them and that got me back in the game. Anyway... this game is a really useful tool to learn from because although Toptal is a great player he still makes mistakes on the sides but most players don't make him pay for it. Anyway... I thought the play below was particularly good.. this one is debatable I suppose but i would definitely argue for the play I made.

25 Point Hexversi Challenge

What's the best move for Green?

Well not too many options. #13 doesnt look that good. So I will say #10, that way he cant play #9 without giving up a corner.

[JohnGalt2341]

Hexversi 25 point Challenge

I don't think blanko's responded to the one above yet but I wanted to post this one as well. This is a game from the last tournament between FGYTPeti and maitreg. As you can see.. Green(FGY) has 15 different places they can go. And Purple(maitreg) has only 6. There is no way in hell Purple should win this game but he did largely because of this move.

There are times in games where you might be clobbering your opponent but then you realize that no matter where you go you will give them a good move. So... what happens is... you start burning through all of your moves and every time you move you are creating a new move for your opponent. This is how people can get back into games. I've done it several times myself. But... when you are WAY ahead in games like this one... there is almost always a better solution than to just keep giving your opponent moves. You have to figure out a way to gain a move.

So... what's the best move for Green? This is debatable I suppose.. and since this isn't actually my game I will have to make my case but I'm nearly certain that it is right. If FGY would have moved here he would have won the game easily I think and he would have been in the finals. What's your guess?

As you probably know both these guys are in the tourney and they are both really good Reversi players. I posted some of their stats in the other thread.

[blankoblanco]

I was looking at an old game vs game vs Toptal. He was killing me early and then he went for a "Closed 2" on the lower right side. And then the same on the bottom side. I made him pay for both of them and that got me back in the game. Anyway... this game is a really useful tool to learn from because although Toptal is a great player he still makes mistakes on the sides but most players don't make him pay for it. Anyway... I thought the play below was particularly good.. this one is debatable I suppose but i would definitely argue for the play I made.

25 Point Hexversi Challenge

What's the best move for Green?

I was thinking 10 at first glance as well but Daniel's already said that

I'll go with 13. If he gives us 12 it's an extra move that doesn't make an unbalanced edge for us. If he takes his unbalanced edge, can't we follow up with 10 AND 9 and then he's pretty screwed?

Not feeling very confident on my moves lately, I think I've lost my mojo

[Daniel Espinosa]

I will go with 14. Sacriface an edge but gain another and lots of moves.

Hexversi 25 point Challenge

I don't think blanko's responded to the one above yet but I wanted to post this one as well. This is a game from the last tournament between FGYTPeti and maitreg. As you can see.. Green(FGY) has 15 different places they can go. And Purple(maitreg) has only 6. There is no way in hell Purple should win this game but he did largely because of this move.

There are times in games where you might be clobbering your opponent but then you realize that no matter where you go you will give them a good move. So... what happens is... you start burning through all of your moves and every time you move you are creating a new move for your opponent. This is how people can get back into games. I've done it several times myself. But... when you are WAY ahead in games like this one... there is almost always a better solution than to just keep giving your opponent moves. You have to figure out a way to gain a move.

So... what's the best move for Green? This is debatable I suppose.. and since this isn't actually my game I will have to make my case but I'm nearly certain that it is right. If FGY would have moved here he would have won the game easily I think and he would have been in the finals. What's your guess?

As you probably know both these guys are in the tourney and they are both really good Reversi players. I posted some of their stats in the other thread.

[JohnGalt2341]

Well not too many options. #13 doesnt look that good. So I will say #10, that way he cant play #9 without giving up a corner.

I was thinking 10 at first glance as well but Daniel's already said that

I'll go with 13. If he gives us 12 it's an extra move that doesn't make an unbalanced edge for us. If he takes his unbalanced edge, can't we follow up with 10 AND 9 and then he's pretty screwed?

Not feeling very confident on my moves lately, I think I've lost my mojo

I'm sure both of your moves would have worked well enough to win the game. #10 is a good move for sure but right now it is a "saved move" and there is nothing that can be done to take that saved move away from Green without Purple's position becoming significantly worse. Whenever you have a saved move it's usually a good idea to use all of your other good moves before you have to use your saved move... especially when it's later in the game. In close games I try to save my saved moves for when I don't have a good place to go. Just make sure that your saved move can't be taken or disrupted somehow.

#13 also a good move but the problem with #13 is we don't have a move yet for #14. Whenever you try to put someone into an unbalanced edge like this, you want to make sure that you can finish the sequence. Meaning... you take #13, Purple takes the side and you follow it up with move #14. #14 would finish the sequence and your opponent would have to move again. But right now Green doesn't have a move at #14. This means Green should wait to make move #13 until we have a move at #14. So... i moved to #6. He has to take it or he will be in even deeper shit. Moving to #6 opens up move #14 for Green and now allows Green to take #13 and finish the sequence. Here's the board again below:

Make sense?

[blankoblanco]

Ah, yes I get it. Smart sequencing. I see stuff like that in my own games sometimes since I've been analyzing that particular game for so long, but I find it hard to spot when just looking at a given position "out of context" so to speak. Very good lesson though

[JohnGalt2341]

I will go with 14. Sacriface an edge but gain another and lots of moves.

I think #14 would have probably worked as well but I would choose #12. I really like #12 here because not only does it take away #13 for Purple but it also prevents Purple from moving to #11. FGY chose the far riskier #1. This would have worked for Green if Purple had less moves but it was far too risky at this point. Purple moved to #11 on the next move and Green was forced to make a terrible move. Here's the board again below:


Being able to finish players off when you have outplayed them takes some practice I suppose. When you get in games like this you should always be looking for eureka type moves that would guarantee you a win. Often times it's just being willing to sacrifice a corner in order to gain a move.

[Daniel Espinosa]

If Green moves to 12 Purple still could move to 11 though

[JohnGalt2341]

If Green moves to 12 Purple still could move to 11 though

Well, they could but they would be foolish to do so. Here's why, If Purple takes #11 after Green takes #12 Green can go to spot #10 which would guarantee Green 3 corners. And because you would take away the good move for #11 by going to #12 because that would allow you to go to go to #10 if he tries to go to #11. He doesn't have a good move besides taking the corner which would be terrible for him but it would he his only decent choice. Below is the board again.

Make sense? Normally I do the challenge with my own games and so I am picking my own moves. But in this.. I REALLY like this move and I didn't get to play it. This is difficult to explain I suppose but there are just certain moves that I really like. This move is accomplishing so much in just the one move. And I consider FGY (guy playing Green) one of the favorites in this tournament but he made a mistake here and it cost him the game. If you can outplay these high level players in situations like this you can beat them. And maitreg(Purple) illustrated exactly that in this game.

[JohnGalt2341]

I noticed blanko finally lost a game. Congrats on winning 22 in a row right out of the gate! Impressive! Because of the abstract nature of Hexversi winning 22 in a row is not easy to do as I'm sure you already know.

I invited you to a game... hope you don't mind I was starting to wonder if anyone in the Ladder may have thought that you were a "ghost" of mine...

[blankoblanco]

Thanks!

Nah, I don't mind, I can handle another loss

[Daniel Espinosa]

Yeah I didnt see that before.

Well, they could but they would be foolish to do so. Here's why, If Purple takes #11 after Green takes #12 Green can go to spot #10 which would guarantee Green 3 corners. And because you would take away the good move for #11 by going to #12 because that would allow you to go to go to #10 if he tries to go to #11. He doesn't have a good move besides taking the corner which would be terrible for him but it would he his only decent choice. Below is the board again.

Make sense? Normally I do the challenge with my own games and so I am picking my own moves. But in this.. I REALLY like this move and I didn't get to play it. This is difficult to explain I suppose but there are just certain moves that I really like. This move is accomplishing so much in just the one move. And I consider FGY (guy playing Green) one of the favorites in this tournament but he made a mistake here and it cost him the game. If you can outplay these high level players in situations like this you can beat them. And maitreg(Purple) illustrated exactly that in this game.

[blankoblanco]

I invited you to a game... hope you don't mind I was starting to wonder if anyone in the Ladder may have thought that you were a "ghost" of mine...

Hoping you won't judge me too harshly based on the way I played against you this game

Basically I figured any approach I took would lose but wanted to see if something more aggressive (but mixing in a few quiet moves) could possibly get anywhere. Clearly you're too strong of a player for that to ever work.

At the same time, I'm sure I'd also lose if I tried to play a worse and less refined version of your own game. It probably would have made for a longer game before you tapped me out, but still an inevitable loss. It's hard to know how to approach playing vs someone who knows all the tricks you know + more

[JohnGalt2341]

Hoping you won't judge me too harshly based on the way I played against you this game

Basically I figured any approach I took would lose but wanted to see if something more aggressive (but mixing in a few quiet moves) could possibly get anywhere. Clearly you're too strong of a player for that to ever work.

At the same time, I'm sure I'd also lose if I tried to play a worse and less refined version of your own game. It probably would have made for a longer game before you tapped me out, but still an inevitable loss. It's hard to know how to approach playing vs someone who knows all the tricks you know + more

I hear you on that. One thing I've noticed is... when I invite regular Reversi players to play me in a game of Hexversi they often play me their best in the first couple of games. But if I beat them a couple of games they often start playing worse. I don't think it's because I'm necessarily playing any better(although I do believe I played really well in our game), but some players start playing me too passively which usually makes them easier for me to beat. The other end of the spectrum is... they play too aggressively which almost always makes them easier for me to beat. But if you can pick your spots... and know when to make smart aggressive plays... I really think it's most players best chance at beating me.

In 2008 and 2009 I quit playing Hexversi tourneys and started playing Reversi 6x6 tourney's instead. I played in several 6x6 tourney's over a year or so. There's a player named "Came Dude" that dominated 6x6 for nearly a decade winning over 400 6x6 tourneys during that time. And in the early 2000's many of these tourney's had more than 100 people in them. By the time I started playing in 6x6 tourneys the tournaments were much smaller. Most with less than 20 people or so. I played Came Dude 93 times I believe. And I beat him 32 times. It's one of my stats on IYT that i'm most proud of.

But here's what I noticed when playing against Came Dude... well... first off... his style of play is wicked awesome. It's so confident and bold... he knows exactly when to be aggressive probably better than any other player I've ever played before in anything. But here's the kicker... if you play him too aggressively he will stomp you every time. But if you play him too passively he will stomp you as well.

Long story short... in order to beat Came Dude you had to play him with confidence while not being too overly aggressive. There's a sweet spot in there... and if you can find it you might be able to beat him. But... after he crushes people a couple of games... they often start playing scared which makes them easier to beat. I like to think that my Hexversi style is sort of similar to Came Dude's 6x6 style. In order to beat us you have to truly believe that it's possible. Because if you don't... it makes it so much harder to do so. But neither one of us is unbeatable at our game of choice... but in order to beat us you usually have to actually believe it first.

I invited Came Dude to a game of Hexversi way back when... but he declined. I'm nearly certain he would have been awesome at it though.

Check out his 6x6 Tournament stats:

Reversi 6x6

7601 (92%)

525 (6%)

121 (1%)

8247

He's not unbeatable... even if it feels like it when you are playing him.

[blankoblanco]

Yeah, it was foolish of me to think a predominantly aggressive style would ever work against you. I guess a lot of it is about knowing when to attack for the inside pieces? It's easy to say it's just good to have the inside pieces, but if you do it too early, it looks good momentarily but then the other player can often just flip it around on you. Or that's how it seems to me, and that's what I'm struggling with

I'll definitely play differently next time we face off. I'm not all that worried about playing too passively since my problem is usually the opposite. I'm sure I'll still lose, but hopefully I can make you think a little harder. I'm still trying out a lot of things (mostly to my detriment, lately) hoping something clicks and I can stop regressing and start improving again

[JohnGalt2341]

I see we have the rubber-match between Daniel and blanko going on... this should be good!

The games between you 2 are usually really good learning tools... when the game is over I'll try to post some examples of either really good plays or some not so good plays. I suspect that we'll see a little of both.

[Daniel Espinosa]

Yeah, I think Im playing better now, lets see how I do against a tough opponent.

[blankoblanco]

lets see how I do against a tough opponent.

Ditto. I just hope I don't botch the early game too badly so that we get some interesting play. GL

[JohnGalt2341]

25 Point Hexversi challenge.

I usually thrive when players become super aggressive but it can be really tricky sometimes. Even when it feels like you should be dominating a game you can still be left without a good move and the wrong move can cost you the game.

I get intrigued by games with really low move counts for both players. The game below is just slightly over halfway through and Green has only 6 moves and Purple has only 3. This is pretty rare for both players to have such low move counts at this stage in the game.

What's the best move(I think) for Green?

[Daniel Espinosa]

Crazy game . I will say 4. Mostly because all others moves seem worse, and 4 seems like a safe one.

[blankoblanco]

I usually thrive when players become super aggressive but it can be really tricky sometimes. Even when it feels like you should be dominating a game you can still be left without a good move and the wrong move can cost you the game.

I can definitely relate to this. It's why I lost to winbig and why I was struggling with my current game vs. Chair-Man for a while

Really interesting situation and board. The only way I could really find to forward our goal of running him out of moves is to take 1, sacrificing the corner and following up with 2. Puts the play back to him with his 3 moves, which I would hope are all eventually exploitable (but it can be tough and I've struggled in these spots like I've said)

[JohnGalt2341]

Crazy game . I will say 4. Mostly because all others moves seem worse, and 4 seems like a safe one.

In a previous post I think I mentioned that I don't put too much emphasis on the 6 Middle pieces on the board, and usually I don't. But in games like this the Middle 6 become incredible valuable. If you are playing a super aggressive player I recommend that you hold on to AT LEAST 1 Middle 6 piece. If you think your opponents intentions are to try to eliminate you, then you should definitely hold onto as many Middle 6 pieces as you can. I will attempt to explain why.

I can definitely relate to this. It's why I lost to winbig and why I was struggling with my current game vs. Chair-Man for a while

Really interesting situation and board. The only way I could really find to forward our goal of running him out of moves is to take 1, sacrificing the corner and following up with 2. Puts the play back to him with his 3 moves, which I would hope are all eventually exploitable (but it can be tough and I've struggled in these spots like I've said)

I thought about taking #1 and I think it may have worked but I chose #5 instead. Here's why: If Purple chooses to take the six Green pieces in the line after I moved to #5, it will be easy for me to finish him off. On my next move I would use that Upper right Middle 6 and move towards that upper right corner. This would force Purple to take that lower right Green piece. After Purple takes that lower right Green piece, Green could now move to #2. Any move that Purple made after that would give Green a corner.

I'm not sure if this made any sense or not... I realize this is sort of confusing. This is a game I am playing right now in the Ladder vs winbig. winbig chose not to try to eliminate me after I moved to #5. And that's fine too because it allowed me to create more of my pieces to become "trapped" inside of his. My main concern on move #22 was to prevent myself from getting eliminated. Once I created just a few more trapped pieces I knew should be able to beat him.

This is a really interesting game. I haven't talked too much about the Middle 6 pieces in previous posts but in this game I really used them to my advantage. This game is up to move #33 now and if you check it out you can see that Purple is getting annihilated by Green's moves towards the corners from those Middle 6 pieces.

All that being said... I still don't focus on the Middle 6 that much in most of my games. But in games like this one... it's usually a good idea to hold on to those Middle 6 pieces if you have them.

[blankoblanco]

Ha, it's funny that this was also against winbig since I mentioned him right off the bat in my previous post (but yeah, that seems to be how he plays)

I feel slightly better about losing to him now. I have no doubt you would have found the winning line in my game against him, but I just had no experience being in a tight spot against a hyper-aggressive player. Usually it's fairly easy. By the time I realized having the inside track wouldn't be enough, it was too late

[Daniel Espinosa]

Ha, it's funny that this was also against winbig since I mentioned him right off the bat in my previous post (but yeah, that seems to be how he plays)

I feel slightly better about losing to him now. I have no doubt you would have found the winning line in my game against him, but I just had no experience being in a tight spot against a hyper-aggressive player. Usually it's fairly easy. By the time I realized having the inside track wouldn't be enough, it was too late

Im surprised he beat you. I beat him fairly easy, although he is playing a good game against John, so maybe I was just lucky.

Anyway next time we play I know I will play hyper aggresive too

[JohnGalt2341]

Im surprised he beat you. I beat him fairly easy, although he is playing a good game against John, so maybe I was just lucky.

Anyway next time we play I know I will play hyper aggresive too

Nah... I'd pick either you or blanko against winbig anytime. I think it was winbig that got lucky vs blanko and it was sort of a coincidence that he had me in a bad spot as well. But some players are definitely better at playing aggressively than others. winbig is like an MMA fighter that has terrible cardio and limited skills... but he can hit hard. He might pull some upsets occasionally but most of the time he's going to get beat by superior skill.