[InTheDrink]

Madcap = tl;dr

[The Madcap]

Here's my link http://www.gallup.com/poll/13006/sec...hyperbole.aspx

Where is your statistical proof?




Well, my mother worked for 20+ years alongside 4 people who chain smoked while at work. Because she died while in hospital, an autopsy was automatically performed (even though it was obvious she died from the lung cancer she battled). The pathologist told her (and our) family doctor there was no doubt that her cancer was a direct result of her heavy smoking (yet she never was a smoker).

So while some things like bicycle seats or nitrates in hot dogs might need further study, the sane people of the world are quite satisfied that while 100% of smokers (or 2nd hand smokers) may not get cancer, it's still a toxic, cancer causing poison that many like myself believe, should not be a factor in whether or not a person stays in a place of employment.

Of course, no one twisted moms arm to work there. She could have just quit in her 50s and given up all her seniority and benefits and went out looking to restart a career in the shittiest job market in 30 years simply because the douchebag smokers wouldn't step outside the office.

So I'm left to choose between the prolific, wordy & angry Madcap, or a couple of fancy-shmancy "doctors" I dealt with directly, and thousands of doctors and "scientists" who say otherwise and happen to not be in the pocket of the cig industry.

Yes, yes, I forgot that the only things we can prove in life are those we have verified through the commission of some study.

You act as if these studies are somehow any less self-interested than Philip Morris and RJ Reynolds.

Look, I'm not saying that cigarette smoke isn't harmful. I've already admitted that. I've already admitted that it could very well be a contributing factor to cancer, but don't give me this Gospel spiel about the scientific community and what doctors tell you about smoking must be the truth, because those mother fukkers change their damned mind every three years about whether or not eggs are good or bad for you. Or milk. Or meat. Or any number of other things humans ingest or come into contact with on a regular basis. And why? Because like you, they are idiots who have become slaves to the results of "studies."

Well "studies"don't prove shit. And studies don't prove shit because there is no verifiable scientific evidence. There is data, there is research, but no scientific evidence that can be confirmed through experimentation. For instance, we can prove theories about physics, gravity, chemical reactions, nuclear reactions, things of this nature, because we can conduct experiments that replicate the results that prove these theories. And we can develop new inventions once we prove these theories. Like fighter jets, space shuttles, high impact ammunitions, water proof matches, atomic bombs, etc. Scientific experiments, and the results thereof being, replicated in a real and tangible sense allow us to see first hand what is real, and what is merely theoretical.

A STUDY is NOT an EXPERIMENT.

And this is why the conclusions of studies are routinely discredited year after year after. Of course there would be no need to discredit these studies if the half-wits in the medical community didn't go around changing their treatments every time some new stupid study comes out, and they probably wouldn't go around changing their treatments every time some new stupid study comes out if dip-shits like you didn't fall for that shit like a tourist buying a Rolex from a guy wearing sweatpants standing next to the Coney Island Ferry.

The point is this: these studies will tell you that second hand smoke is so dangerous you can develop lung cancer having been subjected to it only once. And people who go swimming in the ocean can get eaten by a shark.

I am sorry someone close to you died of lung cancer. But considering that is the case, don't you think that perhaps you are a bit too close to this issue and the emotional fervor of such events might possibly preclude you from making a sound judgment? Sort of like a mother who goes on a gun control crusade because her daughter was shot?

There are too many people who smoke their whole fukking lives who never develop cancer for any of this research to firmly conclude shit. It isn't that smoking causes cancer, it is that smoking causes cancer IN SOME PEOPLE. Sort of like the way some people are lactose intolerant or allergic to peanuts. I have a friend that's allergic to chicken. Seriously. CHICKEN. I have no doubt that cigarette smoke is dangerous shit. And I do think her co-workers are assholes for not stepping out in such closed quarters. But then again, if your mom was so concerned about getting cancer, well then she took a risk by not quitting her job didn't she? The same way Alaskan crab-fisherman take a risk by not quitting their job.

Or perhaps it's possible she had no idea about the dangers of smoking because this was so long ago. And that brings up a significant point--the dangerous of smoking are much more publicized now than they used to be. Even if smoking wasn't banned, most companies would go ahead and ban it anyway so as to not limit their potential talent pool. And so the ban still isn't necessary.

Pretty much the only places that wouldn't ban smoking would be bars and restaurants. And I surely hope you're not going to defend a bar-tender or waitress in the manner you defended your mother. As I pointed out, most of the bar-tenders and waitresses I know are the ones most furious about it.

[Conan]

smoking ban and shutting down restaurants that serves high calorie food is not an apples to apples analogy

exactly smoking bans are about others health second hand smoke has bean proven to be even more detramental to peoples health then directly smoking and you have no choice when people are around you smoking. Over eating is bad for you but it has no direct effect on peoples health around you. The gov can and should step in when what you are doing hurts others well being but if it does not affect others only yourself the gov has no business telling you what you can and can not do.

[The Madcap]

second hand smoke has bean proven to be even more detramental to peoples health then directly smoking

Read that line again. Just think about what you're saying. Think about it, then read it again. Now ask yourself: do you really believe that? Do you?

Do you really believe the person actually smoking the cigarette is less affected by what's going on?

Remember that old adage, "Don't believe everything you read." ?

Well this is the type of shit they're talking about. Don't let them turn you into a clown man.

[The Madcap]

The gov can and should step in when what you are doing hurts others well being but if it does not affect others only yourself the gov has no business telling you what you can and can not do.

So I guess by this rationale we should ban drinking since so many people are killed by drunk drivers every year. Right? RIGHT?

Oh no, because that's an "accident."

Except in the court of the law. You kill somebody while drinking and driving you can get charged with second degree murder.

You don't want to be exposed to cigarette smoke, don't put yourself around smokers. Oh what, you won't be able to get your favorite pizza anymore because they allow smoking?

So they should be a slave to your demands of healthy living? If you're so fukking concerned about a healthy living, then why in the hell are you eating pizza? Do you know what's in pepperoni?

Fukking hypocrites.

[Conan]

it is ilegal to drink and drive the gov stepped in and did somthing and if gov didn't step in and ban smoking you could smoke evryware be it pizza place grocery store or whatever. and what about the chumps who have to work there? you want to say its there choice to work there if they dont like it they should quit there job in a country with more than a 10% unemployment rate?

[The Madcap]

it is ilegal to drink and drive the gov stepped in and did somthing and if gov didn't step in and ban smoking you could smoke evryware be it pizza place grocery store or whatever. and what about the chumps who have to work there? you want to say its there choice to work there if they dont like it they should quit there job in a country with more than a 10% unemployment rate?

It's not illegal to drink and drive. It's illegal to drive drunk. Big difference.

If it were illegal to drink and drive, then drinking outside of the home would have been outlawed long ago, unless drinkers were ferried to and from home by a government approved transportation system. I'm actually surprised this hasn't happened in a liberal state somewhere, it'd be a racket for the cab drivers unions and the bus system.

Fact is there are still tens of thousands of people that are killed every year in alcohol related automobile accidents. If the cancer rates listed by medical studies of second hand smoke are enough evidence to ban smoking, then the number of drunk driving deaths should be enough to absolutely outlaw the public consumption of alcohol. But it's not. And why? Well we'll get to that in a minute...

You say that if the government didn't step in and ban smoking you could do it anywhere, like a grocery store.

Oh, is that right chief?

I live in North Carolina. Of all the things we're known for, there are three in particular: NASCAR, college basketball, and cigarettes. We're the smoking fukking state man. And yet, there have been bars and restaurants that have been smoke free where I live for years. YEARS. Long before the government came in. And why? Why were they able to ban smoking without the government?

FREEDOM.

That's why. The FREE market. Where shopkeeps and restaurant owners realized that a lot of people don't seem to like being around cigarette smoke anymore and thought they could bring in more business and make more money by prohibiting their customers from smoking.

This isn't 1975. Businesses are fully aware that there are a lot of people who can't stand smokers. Grocery stores aren't going to allow smoking even if it were legal, because as soon as one store did it, all his business would go over to the store across the street, and no business owner is going to do that unless he's trying to corner the novelty "smoke while you shop" market. And if that's what he wants to do, why the fuk shouldn't he be allowed to do it?

We're adults. We should allow ourselves the freedom to make our own decisions. Why don't we? Well it gets back to that question I asked you earlier about why we don't treat alcohol the same way as cigarettes. And here's why: BECAUSE WE ARE SELFISH ASSHOLES. And we like to drink don't we? Everyone on this damned forum that drinks, and I would say that's most of us, has gotten behind the wheel of a car more than once when they were above the legal limit. Some of us when not only were we above the legal limit, but so fukking drunk it's a damned miracle we didn't run into a telephone pole. And I bet there are even a couple that have. We've all driven a car when we shouldn't have. Because getting drunk sneaks up on you sometimes.

But most people that drink don't kill people. And the majority of us in this country like to go to the bar and drink. That's the only reason smoking is banned and bar drinking is legal. MAJORITY RULE. What the majority wants the majority gets, no matter how right, just, or fair, it is. Kind of like when we had slavery and kept women and blacks from voting.

And that's fine if that's how you want to play it. But HAVE THE BALLS TO ADMIT IT. Admit the fact you just don't like smoking, and because most other people don't either, that's why it's illegal. Admit it. Admit that you think you have the right to tell business owners how to treat their customers and employees and there's nothing they can do about it, because you have the majority, nanny nanny boo-boo

Just admit it. That's all I'm saying. Be up front and honest. Don't give us all this greater good commie nonsense to try and justify your tyrannical bullshit. Have some balls. And if you don't have the balls, then sit down and shut up. And then maybe in your silence, after you've admitted to yourself you're a filthy hypocrite, you can quit pretending to care about the Constitution and the concept of individual liberty. Or, even better, in realizing the error of your ways, you can learn how to start defending it by defending practices that you might not happen to like. Such as smoking at a bar.

[LarryF]

People are free to eat, drink and smoke whatever and however much they want. Me, I limit my broccoli consumption due to the calories.

[jgilmartin]

I live in North Carolina. Of all the things we're known for, there are three in particular: NASCAR, college basketball, and cigarettes. We're the smoking fukking state man. And yet, there have been bars and restaurants that have been smoke free where I live for years. YEARS. Long before the government came in. And why? Why were they able to ban smoking without the government?

FREEDOM.

That's why. The FREE market. Where shopkeeps and restaurant owners realized that a lot of people don't seem to like being around cigarette smoke anymore and thought they could bring in more business and make more money by prohibiting their customers from smoking.

This isn't 1975. Businesses are fully aware that there are a lot of people who can't stand smokers. Grocery stores aren't going to allow smoking even if it were legal, because as soon as one store did it, all his business would go over to the store across the street, and no business owner is going to do that unless he's trying to corner the novelty "smoke while you shop" market. And if that's what he wants to do, why the fuk shouldn't he be allowed to do it?

Yes, exactly. I am incredibly concerned about the continuing loss of freedoms in this country. Worse still is that those of us who are in favor of civil liberty seem to be a minority. Just ******* sickening.

[5ammy]

Not going to engage in a big arguement here but I think it would be a sin for a place like this to be shut down because of its bad health effects. It is a choice to go there (one that I would make as well) and let them enjoy. I'm sure the 29 year old had a good run before he packed it in for death.

If you pay taxes, you'll end up paying for their poor choices. Just sayin

[The Madcap]

Yeah, it's some bullshit.

If I had a billion dollars I would buy up a shitload of land somewhere out in Montana or Idaho or the Dakotas, call it a "Freedom Reservation" or something, and I would invite people to come live there. I'd work out some deal with the U.S. gov't like they worked out with the Indians to leave us the f*ck alone. We'd have our own Constitution and rule of law. Our own courts, jails, police, fire fighters, hospitals, etc. And we'd screen everybody who applied for a residence permit. EVERYBODY. Prove your worth, and your in. Can't? Too bad. It would be the happiest place in the country.

[King Mayan]

Eat you vegetables muthafukkas.......... Stop eating all that garbage and stop smoking, binge drinking,etc...

[The Madcap]

If you pay taxes, you'll end up paying for their poor choices. Just sayin

This is true. And this is why I have been against universal health care from the start. Because once the government says "we have a right to ban smoking, we need to cut down on health care costs" then they have the right to ban everything.

The high sugar content in soda is a leading cause of obesity researchers have found.....

BAN IT!

The high amounts of sodium and cholesterol in bacon are leading to heart disease....

BAN IT!

Over-indulgence in alcohol is causing rates of cirrhosis to sky rocket, and the government is finding there aren't enough doctors to treat the patients....

BAN IT!

The large caffeine content in coffee is shown to be a leading cause of high blood pressure rates and hypertension....

BAN IT!

And it wouldn't just stop with what we put into our bodies. Say the government takes over energy production even more than they already have, rolling brownouts would be the beginning. Try this scenario:

" Based off a study released in Washington D.C. and analyzed by the CBO, the congress has realized it can save a trillion dollars a year by cutting off certain electrical devices from midnight to five am. From now on, there will be no internet or television between these hours. "

BUT THAT CAN'T HAPPEN! THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE! (cue shot of Luke Skywalker's face taking a shit)

It will never happen?

That's what they used to say about banning smoking in bars. That's what they used to say about gay marriage. That's what they used to say about a black President.

It will happen, because that's the natural flow of things. It's unavoidable. Governments can't sustain themselves. It is always easier to write new laws then repeal old ones.

They've already taken snack and drink machines out of schools. But that wasn't enough. Kids are still fat. So they've also banned bake sales, grilled cheese sandwiches, and pizza. (But handing out free condoms is ok). They've banned dancing (even the hokey pokey) and hugs. They've even banned teachers from using red ink because they think it's too "negative."

And the same people who did that are the ones that increased taxes on cigarettes and alcohol, and in some places soda. Now they are talking about raising taxes on pizza, candy bars, cheeseburgers, and fried chicken. And in case you don't know, "the power to tax is the power to destroy."

This is real shit that's going down. And it's being laid down by people you know. People who think you should live like they do.

No smoking.

No drinking.

No eating meat. THAT'S RIGHT. You starting to figure it out yet?


The tofu eaters are behind all this shit. They've been behind all of it since day one.

Think about it.

Who starts all these movements? Is it everyday people just trying to make it through the day? No. It's the tofu-eating busy-bodies. Busy-bodies looking out for the greater good. Trying to shape our country in their image. They don't eat meat or smoke cigarettes, so they don't care if these things get banned. Not one bit. They think smoking should be straight-up illegal. And they are serious about it. Dead serious. They want to take your cars, your guns, your prime rib and steak, even your golf courses. They want to take everything you have that they don't like. Because if they don't like something, then that must mean it's bad. They want to rule your life because they think they know what's best for you, best for the greater good. They want to run your life so that it becomes a reflection of theirs, because they think this will somehow validate their unfulfilled, pathetic, sexually-incompetent lives. Question is, are you going to let them?

[Ian]

No, they shouldn't be closed down. It's not like processed food companies that use trans fats to disguise the nutritional content of their product. Everyone who orders a "quadruple bypass burger" knows exactly what they're getting in to.

[dlweaver]

those are some absolutely crazy big cheeseburgers

[mikejamm]

+1 brother! Everyday the government takes away a little more freedom of what it means to live in America. Pretty soon the pricks on capital hill are gonna be telling us how to take a shit and wipe your ass! Totally agree with you man, if fat fuks wanna eat themselves in an early grave, so be it. If people wanna smoke in a bar, why the hell not? It's a damn bar where people go to drink and smoke! So thank you right wing conservative religious fuks who think they know how the rest of us should live, because we have some self control and can live in moderation, we have to suffer and put up with bullshit laws for idiots who have none!

I don't know about where you're from, but there's nothing I can't do around here specifically because of religious whackos except not get a beer after 2 am, something the liberals around here also support because they think it cuts down on drunk driving. Liberals around here also banned happy hour specials. And smoking in bars. And talking on cell phones while driving. They imposed higher taxes on cheeseburgers, soda, candy bars and cigarettes. The price of cigarettes has increased 500% in the last ten years. Raised ammunition prices. They took score-keeping out of little league baseball and kick ball out of school. They banned girls from wearing spaghetti straps, halter tops, and short skirts in school. Now there's talk of uniforms. And not one of them has stepped up to publicly support legalizing weed, gay marriages, or gambling. So, tell me again, why it is you're upset with the right wing religious people? When the right wing religious people have been more and more marginalized in their party ever year? Think about it. When Bush/the GOP controlled congress, what religious-conservative laws did they pass? Seriously. Name one. The only two you can find are 1) banning partial birth abortions and 2) cutting funding for stem cell research, two policies that have large amounts of secular support. They didn't overturn Roe V Wade. They didn't pass any amendment to the constitution to ban gay marriage. Seriously, what have religious conservatives done with the government to control YOU? You specifically, what have they stopped you from doing that Democrats haven't helped them stop you from doing? Not let you practice sodomy? Around here that's not even legal for heterosexual couples. Don't be a tool man. The religious right has no real power. They are pandered to during election season and then dismissed the day of inauguration. The way I see it, less government equals more freedom. One party at least pretends to stand for less government. The other is openly for it. And you're going to tell me the party openly in favor of more regulation is less deserving of blame than the party that at least has a large segment opposed to more regulation? Just because it's called a "sin" tax doesn't mean it was created by judgmental Baptists.

I agree that aging liberals, have had their fun and now want to dictate how the rest of us should live according to their new found middle of the road conservatism. But you're wrong Madcap when you say the religious fanaticals from the far right are not making moves to ultimately control the government and the entire country. There is a conservative wave sweeping our country and if they have their ignorant ways, they will destroy what's left of middle class America and every bit of any freedom of choice as to how we live our lives. You see how the tea party in their attempt stop big government, have only radicalized the Republican party, electing governors to office who want to destroy unions, wipe out state workers and teachers collective bargaining agreements. They've redistricted voting areas in states like Texas to give themselves majorities in state governments, so now no matter what bill or legislation those bastards want to pass, we're forced to have no representation and have the shit jammed down our throats! Meanwhile these fuk'ers who love their omnipotent god and country give every rich bastard a free tax pass because those pricks have their own agenda and can easily funnel excessive money to buy the politician they want!

Unless we as a collective country ban together in the next couple of years and decide as a country we'll never ultimately be out of debt, we as a nation are gonna suffer a spiral of economic downfall so bad, we may never recover. Slashing every economic, social, and welfare programs is not the answer. Cutting and killing funding for schools and displaced workers will only plunge us further down the shit hole of despair. The only way to save what's left of the American dream and return jobs to the millions out of work, will be to force every company who closed up shop and shipped jobs overseas and to Mexico, back into the US by taxation so god damn high, the excessive greedy profits they've earned by cheap sweatshop labor will be all for nothing! And those tax dollars would be use to fund industries who agree to never send labor aboard and make all of their product in the United States. Of course this will probably never happen and the doomsday scenario will ensue. Banks, overseas companies and major corporations have seen fit to keep up their fuk'in greedy aspirations by any means possible and have totally forgotten the American worker that put the sweat, blood, and effort it took to get them where they are in the first place. I drive by hotels everyday that are now bus stops for kids because their whole family lives there. First the job is lost, then the home, the car, and finally every shred of dignity these people have left. So what'll think is gonna happen when conservatives wipe out food stamps and slash every other program designed to help those in need. I foresee a return to bread lines like those my grandfather told me about in the '30's, only this time the numbers will be much worse.

So we can bitch and moan about what is being banned and how the excessive glut of one group is fuk'ing it up for the other. But what is really going on here? Little by little these bastards are taking over everything, with their mindset of conservative views and religion as their catalyst. Soon there will be no separation of church and state. And these zealot fundamentalists will control every aspect of our lives, unless we rise up, speak out and demand what our war heros fought and died for......Freedom to live the best life possible, without intervention from demented, narrow minded thinking assholes who think they know what's best for us.

[The Madcap]

I agree that aging liberals, have had their fun and now want to dictate how the rest of us should live according to their new found middle of the road conservatism. But you're wrong Madcap when you say the religious fanaticals from the far right are not making moves to ultimately control the government and the entire country. There is a conservative wave sweeping our country and if they have their ignorant ways, they will destroy what's left of middle class America and every bit of any freedom of choice as to how we live our lives. You see how the tea party in their attempt stop big government, have only radicalized the Republican party, electing governors to office who want to destroy unions, wipe out state workers and teachers collective bargaining agreements. They've redistricted voting areas in states like Texas to give themselves majorities in state governments, so now no matter what bill or legislation those bastards want to pass, we're forced to have no representation and have the shit jammed down our throats! Meanwhile these fuk'ers who love their omnipotent god and country give every rich bastard a free tax pass because those pricks have their own agenda and can easily funnel excessive money to buy the politician they want!

Unless we as a collective country ban together in the next couple of years and decide as a country we'll never ultimately be out of debt, we as a nation are gonna suffer a spiral of economic downfall so bad, we may never recover. Slashing every economic, social, and welfare programs is not the answer. Cutting and killing funding for schools and displaced workers will only plunge us further down the shit hole of despair. The only way to save what's left of the American dream and return jobs to the millions out of work, will be to force every company who closed up shop and shipped jobs overseas and to Mexico, back into the US by taxation so god damn high, the excessive greedy profits they've earned by cheap sweatshop labor will be all for nothing! And those tax dollars would be use to fund industries who agree to never send labor aboard and make all of their product in the United States. Of course this will probably never happen and the doomsday scenario will ensue. Banks, overseas companies and major corporations have seen fit to keep up their fuk'in greedy aspirations by any means possible and have totally forgotten the American worker that put the sweat, blood, and effort it took to get them where they are in the first place. I drive by hotels everyday that are now bus stops for kids because their whole family lives there. First the job is lost, then the home, the car, and finally every shred of dignity these people have left. So what'll think is gonna happen when conservatives wipe out food stamps and slash every other program designed to help those in need. I foresee a return to bread lines like those my grandfather told me about in the '30's, only this time the numbers will be much worse.

So we can bitch and moan about what is being banned and how the excessive glut of one group is fuk'ing it up for the other. But what is really going on here? Little by little these bastards are taking over everything, with their mindset of conservative views and religion as their catalyst. Soon there will be no separation of church and state. And these zealot fundamentalists will control every aspect of our lives, unless we rise up, speak out and demand what our war heros fought and died for......Freedom to live the best life possible, without intervention from demented, narrow minded thinking assholes who think they know what's best for us.

In that entire post, no where did I read an answer to my question. So I'll ask it again: what laws have the religious fundamentalists passed that have specifically stopped you from doing anything?

You want to blame Republicans and the GOP for jobs going overseas, have you ever thought that maybe if one's job can be performed by an uneducated teenager in some third-world shithole African country that maybe such a job shouldn't be paying a middle class American salary?

You want to blame businesses for unemployment, but the real reason people are unemployed is because their skills are no longer required by businesses. It's the individual's responsibility to make himself worth something, and no one else's.

Seems like I see a commercial for a new IT School pop up on the television every damned day. Know why? Because that's a skill American businesses need. Right here, right now. And they are hiring. They don't need manual labor. Back in the day they did. Back before transatlantic flights, video conferencing, and the internet. But globalization has rendered many American labor jobs obsolete. And as such, it is the American worker's responsibility to adjust with the times and expand his skills. It is not the American business's responsibility to hold back progress just so they can continue to provide jobs to people afraid to learn a new skill. If it were, we would all still be traveling by horse and carriage instead of automobile because guys like you protested the potential loss of farrier jobs.

The union busting taking place right now doesn't have a damned thing to do with religion. And there isn't one person I know well enough to drink with who considers himself a Tea Partier that even goes to church on a regular basis. It ain't got shit to do with religion. Some religious people might be Tea Party supporters, but it doesn't mean the Tea Party/limited government movement has shit to do with religion. Sort of like how all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. You dig?

Let me lay one more key point on you, because you in the "taxing the rich will solve our problems" bracket always fail to understand it, but since it will probably be long-winded I must preface it with a request...

"Let my inspiration flow,
in token lines suggesting rhythm,
that will not forsake me,
till my tale is told and done."

The key to more jobs is more companies. Take pizza delivery for instance. Back in the day most places just had two: Dominoes and Pizza Hut. Then Little Caesar's expanded. And then Papa John's shot out of a canon over the last decade. When the market share gets divided up into smaller chunks, then more jobs are created, because each company needs their own cooks, delivery guys, salesmen, buyers, regional managers, ad execs, designers, and so on. Following so far?

The way taxes and business regulations inevitably get set up by you people makes it harder for smaller guys like Papa Johns to get started. (It's no coincidence his company got started in the 80's when there was less business regulation. )

It makes it harder because the people who start these businesses are no longer capable of doing it. For one, most people start businesses later on in life after they've made some money and been able to put some away. So say you worked as a lawyer, or architect, or engineer, or doctor or something, a job that pays you a good six figures, and say after about 10-15 years of taking somebody else's orders, you've gotten tired of that shit and you want to start working for yourself. So you move out of the lawyering or engineering game, and you start your own business. Maybe you stay in the field and start your own law firm. Or maybe you just open up a pizza shop. Whatever. The point is, you're moving on. And in that process, you've created a job opening in the void you've left behind, and you've created new jobs in the new company you just started.

When you start jacking up taxes on people, then they can't save money as quickly to even be able to start their own businesses. And the younger businesses already in the field can't handle the tax increases as easily as the big boys, and therefore their expansion stalls, while the big boys gobble up bigger shares of the market.
Taxes inevitably crush smaller competitors, and that costs jobs. And that's what the liberal do gooders that you think are going to save you want. They want fewer companies. They want fewer private jobs. It makes us easier to control.

There's a reason why small business owners vote Republican and the large business owners vote Democrat. And that reason is that when the Democrats increase taxes or write new regulations, it's incredibly more difficult for the smaller businesses to handle. It makes them vulnerable. And easier for the big boys to crush them and run them out of business.

Liberals want to run small businesses out because they can control one or two big businesses splitting 100% of the market much easier than 100 businesses sharing 1% a piece. And not only that, but bigger businesses means fewer jobs, and fewer jobs means more people are dependent on the government for employment. Which gives them the rationale to collect more tax dollars and expand government programs. Especially union jobs. Oh how they love union jobs. And why would they want to do that? Because the liberals in power are not your grandfather's liberals. Today's head honcho liberals firmly believe in one of two things 1) robbing middle America blind to make themselves rich (this would be those who run conglomerate companies like GE and AOL-Time Warner) or 2) consolidating so much of the wealth and power into as few places as possible so that it will be easier for them to take it over and implement their Marxist communist revolution.

And I realize that might sound like some whacko conspiracy to you, but it's not. This shit has been in the works for years. It's why I had to move out of Washington D.C.; listening to these guys in the corridors of Capitol Hill every day was going to cause me to go on a shooting spree.

If you can't bring yourself to believe that, please, go research your liberal leaders. Nancy Pelosi, Al Gore, Chuck Schumer, etc. Research when and how they got rich. Notice in particular which companies they were a part of, and the timing of their windfall profits with the legislation enacted beforehand. They are scumbags using the American tax-payers to get rich. Now this isn't to say that there aren't higher ups in the GOP looking to influence government legislation to make themselves rich as well, but there is a big distinction between pursuing one's self-interests through government intervention and seeking self-interest free from it.

[paintball1084]

man i would dominate one of those burgers. im not fat either, it looks good

[jgilmartin]

The Republicans are equally bad on individual freedoms as the Democrats, they just choose different freedoms to attack - separation of church and state, drugs, gambling, abortion, etc. etc., not to mention the Patriot Act. Several of the Republicans I know have those 'Vote Freedom First' stickers on their cars. Hilarious.

[The Madcap]

The Republicans are equally bad on individual freedoms as the Democrats, they just choose different freedoms to attack - separation of church and state, drugs, gambling, abortion, etc. etc., not to mention the Patriot Act. Several of the Republicans I know have those 'Vote Freedom First' stickers on their cars. Hilarious.

Yes and no. Democrats support the Patriot Act just as much as Republicans behind close doors. (Just look at the voting record on the first run and the re-newels)

The idea of separation of church and state has been mangled since it's inception. It's designed to keep the government out of your church, not to keep your religion out of your government. Which is to say, it never expected elected officials to not make decisions based on the tenets of their faith. It just didn't want those elected officials coming into your house of worship and telling you that you have to worship their god or none at all. (Like in strict Islamic countries). And I don't know any GOP voters in favor of that.

Yes many of them want to make teaching evolution opt-in, ban gay marriage, ban abortion, and they have religious reasonings for doing that, but this isn't illegal or unconstitutional. Theoretically anyway. And more importantly I think, is that there are secular reasons to support such measures, but you don't hear those because the media doesn't want to promote an intelligent discourse about it. So they fan the flames of "religious intolerance" because then it makes it easier to discredit these ideas.

And drugs and gambling, let's look at that. Yes many in the GOP hate drugs in gambling. And yet, despite all these Democrats who supposedly don't hate these things, in how many liberal states can you go to a casino? (that's not on an Indian reservation) And in how many liberal states can you smoke weed legally?

The fact is, that with the exception of abortion and gay rights issues, Democrats don't give a fuk about any of these personal liberties either, it's just that since the Republicans have taken the reigns on these matters, they sit back and let them do all the work while not losing votes for it.

So while I agree that many in the GOP want to stop you from doing certain shit, there is hardly anything they want to stop you from that the Democrats don't also want to stop you from, or don't care enough to fight for the right to let you do it.

[jgilmartin]

Yes and no. Democrats support the Patriot Act just as much as Republicans behind close doors. (Just look at the voting record on the first run and the re-newels)

The idea of separation of church and state has been mangled since it's inception. It's designed to keep the government out of your church, not to keep your religion out of your government. Which is to say, it never expected elected officials to not make decisions based on the tenets of their faith. It just didn't want those elected officials coming into your house of worship and telling you that you have to worship their god or none at all. (Like in strict Islamic countries). And I don't know any GOP voters in favor of that.

Yes many of them want to make teaching evolution opt-in, ban gay marriage, ban abortion, and they have religious reasonings for doing that, but this isn't illegal or unconstitutional. Theoretically anyway. And more importantly I think, is that there are secular reasons to support such measures, but you don't hear those because the media doesn't want to promote an intelligent discourse about it. So they fan the flames of "religious intolerance" because then it makes it easier to discredit these ideas.

And drugs and gambling, let's look at that. Yes many in the GOP hate drugs in gambling. And yet, despite all these Democrats who supposedly don't hate these things, in how many liberal states can you go to a casino? (that's not on an Indian reservation) And in how many liberal states can you smoke weed legally?

The fact is, that with the exception of abortion and gay rights issues, Democrats don't give a fuk about any of these personal liberties either, it's just that since the Republicans have taken the reigns on these matters, they sit back and let them do all the work while not losing votes for it.

So while I agree that many in the GOP want to stop you from doing certain shit, there is hardly anything they want to stop you from that the Democrats don't also want to stop you from, or don't care enough to fight for the right to let you do it.

Believe me, I do not believe Democrats are good on individual freedoms either. I believe them to be awful. I just think the Republicans are also awful.

I think the fact that elected officials will make decisions based on the tenets of their faith is unavoidable and fully constitutional, and that is not at all the issue for me. The issue is creationism or "intelligent design" being taught in a public school, an idea many Republicans (and surely some Democrats also) are in favor of.

[Boscoe]

The guy that owns the place is actually a fitness guy. I think the irony is lost on some people. Some fatass humiliating himself so he can have a free cheeseburger might make him reexamine what the fukk he's doing to his body. Regardless, we all need to be able to indulge in some junk food every now and then.

[The Madcap]

Believe me, I do not believe Democrats are good on individual freedoms either. I believe them to be awful. I just think the Republicans are also awful.

I think the fact that elected officials will make decisions based on the tenets of their faith is unavoidable and fully constitutional, and that is not at all the issue for me. The issue is creationism or "intelligent design" being taught in a public school, an idea many Republicans (and surely some Democrats also) are in favor of.

Yeah the creationism stuff is bullshit, but that was their way of fighting back against the liberals who refused to teach Darwinism/evolution with the same type of scrutiny afforded most other theories.

I grew up hating the religious right because the Baptist children I went to school with always looked at me with these holier than thou eyes because I liked to drink on the weekends, smoke weed after school, and get blowjobs in the school parking lot before class. And while many of them have remained just as judgmental as they've gotten older, I've noticed most of them aren't concerned with telling me what to do through government laws, but the preaching of the Gospel. And while that's still annoying, I don't find it threatening.

From a pure political standpoint I think the religious right is, and has been, losing power for a while. More and more people registering as Republicans are secular minded people who don't give a shit about gay rights or abortion. And these numbers are going to continue to swell, further rendering the influence of the evangelicals more and more impotent to affect real change. So I'm not worried about them. I don't think they pose a real threat to the future of American freedom. Commie liberals on the other hand, they have been growing in force and influence for a while. I find them to be very dangerous.