[High3rEl3m3nt]

There were blacks that lived in America prior to slavery. While they might not have been viewed as equals to whites, they coexisted together peacefully and were not bonded slaves. It was not until the economic value of African slaves was established, again after other labor sources were exhausted, such as Native Americans, convicts, and poor whites (indentured labor), that racism was introduced as a means to support the new labor system. Slavery was not a foreign concept to Europeans, though there was a common understanding that to enslave fellow Europeans was an offense against humanity. Therefore, the argument, or racist ideology, was developed to ease the moral conscious of society.

In getting to your second point, as to what percentage of blacks in the U.S. are descendants of slaves, I think you are missing the point, which is also demonstrated in your wondering why blacks have not been able to improve their standing in society, as others, such as my Irish descendants were able to do. The symbolism stemming from slavery, that was attached to the color of black, created a distinct line of separation in the minds of whites to which blacks could not hurdle over. Black did not just refer to Africans. Black meant evil in a Judeo Christian sense, it meant animalistic, it meant immorality, it mean uncivilized etc. Black is also easy to identify and use as a term to lump people that looked different together. Because the meaning attached to Blacks was done by Whites, how could Blacks possibly shed the symbolism of their skin. On the other hand, whites were able to assimilate and be accepted after a generation or several generations were removed from their European roots. This is demonstrated in the irony of the Know-Nothing Party and the Nativists, who were descendants of the very same European immigrants that they violently opposed. So, it’s important to recognize that groups of European immigrants had different experiences preventing their assimilation than Blacks, and that the ones facing Blacks were much greater as so much symbolism was put into the color of their skin being brown and black. So yes, my Irish ancestors were able to gradually assimilate and gain acceptance into society, but they did not face the same hurdles that blacks faced, such as how other whites viewed them in comparison to blacks. Further, it also important to remember that merely being black was all most people needed to know. Future populations of black immigrants didn’t have a fighting chance and in the mind of white culture, they were simply lumped into the black category and given all of the existing racial stereotypes. Some of the most interesting literature that I have read discussed the confusion that black leaders had in trying to improve the standing of their people. There were those, such as Du Bois, who argued that if only Blacks earned their way in society, then Whites would finally accept them as equals and shed their racial ideologies. Du Bois encouraged Blacks to take up arms and fight alongside whites and Europeans alike against the Axis in WWII. Others, openly rebuked Du Bois, citing the hypocrisy of fighting to free Europeans from the grip of Germany when they themselves, experienced oppressive conditions at home. In my reviewing Black history, I see a critical turning point that moved blacks away from the idea of trying to assimilate into White culture, because no matter how “white” they tried to be, whites would only accept them as second rate citizens. The next generation saw the small gains that their parents and grandparents had made and they wanted to take a different, more separatist route. Instead of working to assimilate into society, they wanted their own society, culture, businesses, and they wanted to stand up for themselves, which meant blow for blow if it came down to it. I think this was the wrong route to go and in my opinion, it ended up hurting black communities in the long run…but I do understand how it evolved away from trying to assimilate.


In responding to your mentioning that blacks are much more likely to commit crimes against whites than vice versa, you are right. However, studies criminal science studies have shown that people are more likely to commit crimes against the people belonging to their same socio economic class and living in the same area. Meaning, blacks commit more crime against blacks than they do against whites. Why is this important? In my line of thinking, it is more telling of the broken state that black communities are in and the desperate need for communities to step up and reverse some of the troubling trends that are occurring. It’s a complicated issue, which is what I have been getting at since participating in your thread. There’s no, “if only they all of sudden step up to the plate,” there issues will magically disappear.

Yes, Shakespeare says let the past be the past, but that’s not how humans operate and in fact, it’s one of the characteristics that separates us from animals. Whereas animals are more instinctual, the past operates as a learning experience, which teaches us how to interact with objects and humans in the present and future. Memory acts a survival mechanism. Again, I am seeing a reoccurring theme in which you tend to oversimplify the issues at hand.

I am also familiar with Walter Williams, who you cited, though Williams aims to argue that cyclical poverty, racism, and slavery do not explain today’s black family trends, he’s takes statistics, though ones from post-slavery are highly disputable, and he inserts his own explanations that align with his political ideology. Williams argues that the left has introduced hand-me-out policies that have devastated African American communities and family dynamics alike. While I do agree that these policies have had a negative impact on communities across the nation, these policies worked in adjunct to the larger, underlying issues, which I have been discussing. For example, Williams fails to realize that blacks were prevented from accessing the opportunities to better themselves and that whites shunned blacks as second rate citizens. The effect of being contained to a racial-economic caste had an effect in itself. Now, I am not saying that all blacks were unable to better their lives, but at the same time, using an individual’s success to be representative of the whole is not fair and ignores the major trends. As I mentioned above, I see there being two significant turning points, in which many Blacks attempted to assimilate into society and were rejected and the following generations, who viewed the lack of progress being made, in which they took it upon themselves to create their own culture, etc.

The key to progress on this issue is complicated. As you mentioned, taking a personal responsibility is important to incite meaningful change. Relying on a single person, or persons, to initiate change will end up in failure. This has to be a grassroots movement that starts in communities across the U.S. Already, community-led movements are emerging and looking to take a more prominent role in the equation. Again, it’s complicated, so you’re not going to see it happen overnight, but I think things are slowly moving in the right direction.

[itchypickle]

The solutions are pretty simple....when black kids are taught from day 1 "the cops are out to get you....you'll never be anything due to your color.....get rich quick for no work at every chance" from shitty parents they are set up for failure and low self esteem.....these same parents who 7/10 are single parents or have more kids than they can afford to ever provide a stable living and upbringing for are the root causes. This cycle continues when they are older and have no skill set or higher education and expect to be hired like their peers who either got a specialized degree or at least finished high school with no criminals record and focused on learning a trade. You can blame racism all ya want but in reality when you make yourself to have no value to a company or job you can't be rejected an cry racism when it's individualism and your own failures to plan for real life.

[statnerds]

In getting to your second point, as to what percentage of blacks in the U.S. are descendants of slaves, I think you are missing the point, which is also demonstrated in your wondering why blacks have not been able to improve their standing in society, as others, such as my Irish descendants were able to do. The symbolism stemming from slavery, that was attached to the color of black, created a distinct line of separation in the minds of whites to which blacks could not hurdle over. Black did not just refer to Africans. Black meant evil in a Judeo Christian sense, it meant animalistic, it meant immorality, it mean uncivilized etc. Black is also easy to identify and use as a term to lump people that looked different together. Because the meaning attached to Blacks was done by Whites, how could Blacks possibly shed the symbolism of their skin. On the other hand, whites were able to assimilate and be accepted after a generation or several generations were removed from their European roots. This is demonstrated in the irony of the Know-Nothing Party and the Nativists, who were descendants of the very same European immigrants that they violently opposed. So, it’s important to recognize that groups of European immigrants had different experiences preventing their assimilation than Blacks, and that the ones facing Blacks were much greater as so much symbolism was put into the color of their skin being brown and black. So yes, my Irish ancestors were able to gradually assimilate and gain acceptance into society, but they did not face the same hurdles that blacks faced, such as how other whites viewed them in comparison to blacks. Further, it also important to remember that merely being black was all most people needed to know. Future populations of black immigrants didn’t have a fighting chance and in the mind of white culture, they were simply lumped into the black category and given all of the existing racial stereotypes. Some of the most interesting literature that I have read discussed the confusion that black leaders had in trying to improve the standing of their people. There were those, such as Du Bois, who argued that if only Blacks earned their way in society, then Whites would finally accept them as equals and shed their racial ideologies.

In no way, shape or form do I have enough time to go through your novel and underline every instance, but, allow me to point out the extreme irony of which you seem to be unaware:

How many times did you stereotype the entire white race while defending black race?

Just a question is all.

[High3rEl3m3nt]

We have both been discussing generalities, because the concepts are so wide-reaching. There will always be counter-examples, but overall, if you don't think that the color, black, had symbolism attached to it, then you're nutso. If you don't think whites viewed the Irish differently than blacks, you're nutso. If you don't think that Judeo Christian principles were used to distinguish the differences between white and black, you're nutso.

You like to ask questions, but don't provide answers yourself. It's easy to hang back, ask the questions, and then try and pick apart the little details and cite stereotyping, etc., in which generalities are the only way to discuss a topic, such as this one.

[statnerds]

I feel the obvious need not be stated, ie black skin is visually different from white skin.

However, through your thousands of words, the motif only appears to be 'blame whitey'. When I told you, with statistical evidence, that the black families were tighter woven during slavery and after, you dismissed it. Even though the numbers were right there, proving the black family unit survived slavery until the late 19th century and survived segregation and poverty that followed into the mid 20th century, you refuse to even consider it.

Your only explanation for black illegitimacy rate that is so frighteningly high it sounds fake, lies 80 or 90 or more years in the past. Instead of observing the data to see exactly when the rate began to sky rocket after decades upon decades of stagnation and researching possible contributing factors, you attack the messenger. Based on your retort, the effects of slavery and overt racism were so severe, they took 100+ years to take hold.

Racism is far from dead. It is deeply rooted and thriving in black communities across this great country. Should I present data that bolsters that assertion, or would you rather dismiss it blindly?