[boscokid]

Most players are TERRIFIED of post-flop play. Much easier to evaluate odds pre-flop than post-flop.
So often, I saw players just SHOVE if they caught a favorable flop. Take your hand to value-town over 3 streets? Screw that, all-in.

This is a perfect description of 90% of SBR poker players

[ChuckyTheGoat]

I think so, Bosco. It's like playing a Bingo card.

If u have a big holding Pre-Flop, All-in.

If u hit a big flop, All-in.

On the KK hand above...I'm sure the opponent thought he was gold w/ AJ as TPTK. Most opponents would never even get to Turn w/ Overpair b/c they would have shoved earlier.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Does anyone have a late-game Shove chart that they feel comfortable with?

I use one from Pokerstrategy.com. I like it, but it's on the tight side.

I've heard some good reviews from Snapshove, Max Silver's site. Anyone use this one?

I'd like to get better on some of the marginal spots. The premium hands are mostly no-brainers.

What about a 16BB shove from Button? If u hold AJ(spades) in BigBlind, do u call that? Very close, imho.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Any of the SBR guys that played the Vegas tournaments this week:

* Any observations you've seen? Did anything I wrote jive w/ the games you've been playing?

Feel like most players are very predictable.

[RisingDough]

Where do you play mostly GOAT? Do you prefer tournaments to cash games?

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Dough, I've played various places. Last week, I was in Vegas.

I touched on the Tournament vs Cash Game note. I prefer Tournaments. Cash-games are more stressful for me. 2minutes from now...your stack could be gone. I don't consider myself to be a good cash-game player at all.

[Optional]

Any of the SBR guys that played the Vegas tournaments this week:

* Any observations you've seen? Did anything I wrote jive w/ the games you've been playing?

Feel like most players are very predictable.

I did ok in the tourneys I have played but have not had a single winning cash game session.

Think I need to do a lot more reading and learning and thinking like you have.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Nice job, Opti. Keep cashing.

Just note what I've been saying re: Tournaments vs Cash-Games. The biggest difference is the STack you're playing behind.

In tournaments (especially Turbo variety), your Effective BigBlind stacks are pretty shallow. This means that you normally have 1 or 2 moves before potentially going broke.

In Cash-games, you're much deeper. This makes for more varied strategy. For example, if you're holding AA (and u have > 100 BB behind), if an opponent puts u to the test w/ your overpair...how good do u now feel about your hand?

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Opti, in the cash-games, can u detail any specific hand history that caused a problem?

Like I said, deeper stacks behind make for varied playing strategy. Opponents can easily run multi-barrel bluffs and try to get u to lay down 1-pair hands.

[Optional]

I think I am just a rank amateur at some of the basics. As Beerdog sort of put it as we left the tables this morning. Need to have a few home games with friends and be able to discuss strategy a bit as we play. Playing out of position and calling instead of folding or raising too often seems to be my flaw. I was exposed in Vegas as a know nothing poker player. That is all.

I've had a good time whilst losing though. This town is very friendly to big smiling foreigners with weird accents

And I'll be better next time.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Opti, talk to some of the better players in the room. Some good players at SBR.

At risk of excluding someone, I will say that the players I've learned most from are Bite + Sinmiedo. They're aggressive + will play different holdings. It's good to play vs non-standard players, b/c they'll make u think.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Observing the week, I mentioned at least 2 hands I wish I would have played differently. Live + learn.

In particular, the AQ(h) hand was questionable. I had the board smashed. Opponent was over-betting. That should have been a call+trap spot. Let him stack off. And if he had AK, he had it.

Was a fun week. I'd do it again.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

One other item that I've touched on in the discussion: Big Blind Defense.

I've mentioned that the top-players defend BB at a hi%. The calling odds you're getting are too good. Especially vs a Button raise.

The chart I'd like to see is "Minimum # of BigBlinds required" to defend each BB holding. I do think there were hands I was correctly defending in BB. But if you're operating on short-stack, it's an uncomfortable situation.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

One other thing on Big Blind defense. The later (position) the open, the weaker the hand. If folded to Button, an Aggro Button is going to Open a wide% of their hands and take a shot at the Blinds.

In the Elky book, his simulation advocates Defending BB 100% vs Button that opened for Min Raise. That's just such a weak open.

[SharpAngles]

Chuckster you're not giving postflop position enough credit with some of these Blind and EP plays. It comes down to who's a better postflop player so I wouldn't make too many calls out of position unless I knew I had a big enough edge over the raiser to make up for my oop handicap.

I'd also say you seem too focused on the cards they might have instead of the player they are. If you worry less about marginal spots and more about figuring out who to attack when you've got the good positions I guarantee you will make more money, tourney and cash game.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Opti, if u google one player to learn from. Think about this name: Ben Sulsky.

I've read some of his stuff. Educational. A thinking man's approach to poker.

Specifically, he talks about how to respond to the aggression from a 3-bet. If that 3rd bet comes in, that represents a strong hand (isn't ALWAYS). That bet should be respected and responded to accordingly. Tight is right, in this situation. If you're not holding a premium hand, u have to think about giving it up.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Chuckster you're not giving postflop position enough credit with some of these Blind and EP plays. It comes down to who's a better postflop player so I wouldn't make too many calls out of position unless I knew I had a big enough edge over the raiser to make up for my oop handicap.

I'd also say you seem too focused on the cards they might have instead of the player they are. If you worry less about marginal spots and more about figuring out who to attack when you've got the good positions I guarantee you will make more money, tourney and cash game.

I'm sure your comments are valid. But I'm also of the opinion that "position" (as the be-all) is an old theory.

I see BB Defense as the new rule, especially vs weak opens. Any 2cards can flop 2pair.

[RisingDough]

Opti, if u google one player to learn from. Think about this name: Ben Sulsky.

I've read some of his stuff. Educational. A thinking man's approach to poker.

Specifically, he talks about how to respond to the aggression from a 3-bet. If that 3rd bet comes in, that represents a strong hand (isn't ALWAYS). That bet should be respected and responded to accordingly. Tight is right, in this situation. If you're not holding a premium hand, u have to think about giving it up.

Sulsky is a BEAST

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Dough, I think so, too. From everyone I've heard, Sulsky is universally respected in the poker-community.

I've learned some things from Sulsky. Specifically, how do u apply + respond to AGGRESSION?

[RisingDough]

Do you guys play on the SBR site? Is it a real money poker site or just play money? Do they have both tournaments and cash games? How is the software compared to other online sites.

Thanks

RD

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Dough:

I think the answer to that is...a bunch of the SBR guys play in the Daily Tournaments.

And we play in the live room. Most of the SBR guys play their rollovers in that room.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Wanted to post one other trend that I saw at the live tournaments:

* As Big Blind defenders continue to figure out how to deal w/ Positional Disadvantage, I see the BB leading into raiser on low-board flops.

I'm talking raggedy low flops that hit the BB Range more often. Less of this "check to the Raiser" standard.

By leading into the raiser, puts him in a tough spot. Is this just a Range play?

Did Big Blind hit 2pair? A set? A good combo draw?

Anyway, it's a trend I've seen. Puts pressure on Raiser. If you're sitting there w/ Ace-hi, doesn't feel too good. Especially b/c the BB Range can be quite wide.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Would love to hear any more observations/ideas from people.

Tournaments are certainly a different animal vs Cash-games. Best of luck to anyone playing the tourneys this week.

Still want to see an SBR Guy showing up at a WSOP final table.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Been playing more online tournaments. One thing about poker...it's unavoidable that you're going to feel like u were clowned (at least occasionally).

Getting the decisions right, never an ez thing. There are a lot of sayings that have some application:

* "Following your gut." If you get the feeling that the pot is being over-bet, have to think about letting a reasonable holding go.

* "Don't go broke w/ a one-pair hand." I like this one. Can make hands w/ a lot of different combinations in poker. Similar to 1st item, if u feel like the pot is being overbet, ok to let your reasonable holding go.

* "There is no poker, w/o the River." The 7th card often produces a Dirty River. So often, a made-hand looks dubious on the river. The trickiest opponents to face are the guys who can bet a Huge-hand the same way they bet a busted draw.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYtCBxRQ1Oc

You wanna see some funny footage? Listen to the Jerry Yang quotes. "Cmon, Father." Maybe that's the best way to win a tournament.

Like I said...u have to be IN the hand to have a CHANCE to get lucky. Sometimes, u get opponent off a better hand. And if you're behind, USUALLY you're catching better than fair-value odds.

[Triple_D_Bet]

Would love to hear any more observations/ideas from people.

Tournaments are certainly a different animal vs Cash-games. Best of luck to anyone playing the tourneys this week.

Still want to see an SBR Guy showing up at a WSOP final table.

K...

1) steal blinds in unopened pots

2) start shoving to steal blinds long before your stack size dwindles away to nothing

3) don't ignore antes when raising preflop

4) laugh at people who don't understand the above and target them

5) $$


Really not much more to it chucky, at least past the early stages of a tournament. Or perhaps I should say that there's not much beyond what should be highly standard post-flop play.

[Optional]

Here's a tourney question for you.


9 left in a 49 man tourney that pays top 5.

Blinds are 100/200 and I have about 9000 in chips.

In BB I am dealt J7 diamonds.

4 players limp in after me and I check.

Flop comes Js6s4h

I check, UTG bets 200, next two players call and chip leader (about 18000) at the button then bets $1100


What should I do?

[Triple_D_Bet]

Here's a tourney question for you.


9 left in a 49 man tourney that pays top 5.

Blinds are 100/200 and I have about 9000 in chips.

In BB I am dealt J7 diamonds.

4 players limp in after me and I check.

Flop comes Js6s4h

I check, UTG bets 200, next two players call and chip leader (about 18000) at the button then bets $1100


What should I do?

As played, fold...no decent draw to a better hand and blinds are low enough compared to your stack that you're in no immediate danger.

Depending on stack sizes of people involved and their tendencies, maybe raise preflop and bet the flop...but that's only if you've got a solid feel that table is passive and likely to fold preflop; not a hand you want to take very far out of position. Also depends on payout structure, but generally you're probably safest check/folding imo.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Opti, I'll give u my amateur opinion and try to tie it back to some of the comments I've made:

1) Limped pot. I hate limped-pots. Guys are trying to come in cheap and hit a big flop. "Don't go broke in a limped-pot."

2) Beware the exploding bet-ratio, especially in a limped-pot.

3) How strong is your hand? You have top-pair w/ weak-kicker. Can we still improve? Yes, but dubious. Longshot backdoor str8 draw. 5outs to 2pair+, on 2-spade board. The card that could cripple us is 7(s). Would give us 2pr, but could complete someone's flush.

4) Can we put these guys on hand ranges?
* UTG might just be betting a Jack. If he limped in my feeling is that if he has a Jack, it's slightly better than your J7.
* Button is repping strength. I think he has 2pair+ or a combo-draw. Set, 64, or Combo-Draw. 4x(spades), 75(spades).

5) If u do call, that's about 12% of your chips. Not quite pot-committed. But we'd have to improve on the Turn to continue.

My 2-cents. Think we have to Fold.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

One other comment that I should have expressed somewhere in this thread:

* Less bluffing in multi-way pots.

Very hard to bluff 5 opponents out of a pot. Not saying it can't be done if you're holding the right bluff cards. Very difficult, tho.

That said, bet sizes in multi-way pot should be pretty correlated to hand-strength. Have to believe them, until they give u a reason not to.

[bobbywaves]

3) don't ignore antes when raising preflop

I actually concur with this.

Just because Uncle Tripe is ignored by his nephews, is not a valid reason to ignore your Aunte's.

[SharpAngles]

Here's a tourney question for you.


9 left in a 49 man tourney that pays top 5.

Blinds are 100/200 and I have about 9000 in chips.

In BB I am dealt J7 diamonds.

4 players limp in after me and I check.

Flop comes Js6s4h

I check, UTG bets 200, next two players call and chip leader (about 18000) at the button then bets $1100


What should I do?

Like every hand it comes down to your opponents tendencies. How active are the 200 opener and button raiser? If either of them is tight I would probably fold. If they've been mixing it up this is actually a nice squeeze spot. The EP bettor will not want to call with buttons action behind and the button was just taking a stab at the pot so let him know this pot is yours. Check-3bet raise is a strong line on this goofy flop if you feel like they may be trying to pick up the pot.

These are the types of plays you need to make to get into the money but timing is critical. If youre not sure just fold and look for the next spot.

[tatddy]

I don't really play tourneys but that seems like a pretty damn easy fold Opti. You could have raised pre and then c bet and your line looks a lot better. Playing here OOP your only real option is to raise the chip leader showing massive strength but then you've already invested 30 percent of your stack in a limped pot.

Better off waiting a few hands and then put work into stealing some blinds/limpers with your stack. J7 aint much better than 77 in that spot.

[Optional]

Thanks Trip, Chuck and Tat.

It's helpful that you see as it as easy fold. I didn't. Not caring about position enough again I guess is a big part again.

I think I did not take into account my prospects of improving the hand well enough either from your comments.

Like every hand it comes down to your opponents tendencies. How active are the 200 opener and button raiser? If either of them is tight I would probably fold. If they've been mixing it up this is actually a nice squeeze spot. The EP bettor will not want to call with buttons action behind and the button was just taking a stab at the pot so let him know this pot is yours. Check-3bet raise is a strong line on this goofy flop if you feel like they may be trying to pick up the pot.

These are the types of plays you need to make to get into the money but timing is critical. If youre not sure just fold and look for the next spot.

^^^ This is almost exactly how I looked at it.

We had not long gone to final table so half of them I had been not playing. The Button raiser had been with me and had been mixing it up a lot. I figured his raise to 1100 was lower than it would have been at our previous table as he wasn't sure what our new opponents would do.

So I pushed all-in trying to steal the pot.

Folded around to button guy who called with Jc10s

Neither hand improved.


I felt bloody unlucky he called me. Was I or was it really just a stupid move out of position?

I hadn't taken too many risks and felt good about cash prospects, but so often I get to the final table and let my stack dwindle not taking 'enough' chances I think.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Opti, one thing to remember:

* Poker (like Sports) shouldn't be viewed by the Monday Morning QB. Everyone has the answer 24 hours later.

Looking at how that hand played out, hey...u put him to the test. I'll be honest. If I was THAT guy...I couldn't call your all-in. You would have gotten ME to fold.

Only thing I'd say is that...HE must have felt like he was hi in his Range. In limped pot, there SHOULDN'T be an AJ. So, he felt comfortable w/ his JT as best Jack.

Just my two cents...in All-in hand like that (out of Limped pot), I'm always looking for who caught the Loch Ness Monster. I'm surprised nobody had a stronger hand. 2pair+ or a strong Combo-draw.

When I play poker I'm always on the lookout for Combo-draw. Might not be best hand NOW...but good chance to IMPROVE to best hand.