[SharpAngles]

...Or reraising after a shorty has pushed. Does anyone who plays here understand how bad both of these are in a tourney? Every time I've played I see it at least once and it drives me crazy. Of course the shorty has the best of it most of the time and doubles. You guys get that the object is to knock people out right? Calling pre flop and checking down after is the best way to do it in these short stack shove fests yet nobody seems to comprehend this concept. If you need to push over them please do it with a real hand and stop chasing out callers with your AQ.

[daneblazer]

these responses should be good

[USCPHILLYGUY]

There's no logic to what most do in these tourneys.

[Auto Donk]

hahaha..... in my first week on this donk-laden site, after seeing numerous idiots repeatedly commit the offenses you reference, I put up a similar post and a hoard of doofs came out defending such Poker 101 "don't do these moves," on a variety of inane and uninformed theories.... get ready, as they should come out of the woodwork once again........

I wish I knew how to copy prior threads into current ones, I'd be able to save them the time they'll spend trying to justify why they bluffed at a pot with air with a short - stack all in and others in the hand.... only to lose and see the ss double up and someone who woulda taken said shortstack out by hitting the draw the bluffing idiot blew them off of raise hell about the stupidity of the bluff...... reck won such a trny, after being doubled up by some idiot whose name escapes me.... only justice was that reck took the bluffer out after he had chipped back up......

bottom line: you're wastin your time trying to educate idiots that don't want instruction or tips on how to become a better trny player.....

ps...someone tell me how to copy a prior thread into a new post......

[daneblazer]

Object of the tournament is to win it...and you aren't winning many tournaments calling 3-4 way pots and hoping for a friendly check down There's a time and place to check it down, but it's usually not until the final table. Probably one of the most misunderstood concepts in poker, and the fact that so many will disagree only backs it up. But Donker is right about one thing...people aren't gonna change So educate away

[Auto Donk]

hey sharp, i bumped one thread of centy's involving these issues; titled something about "should i have been criticized for this play"...

not the one i was referring to above (im still searching for that one), but a funny read nonetheless.....

[Ra77er]

I can only hope the OP is joking

[downsouth]

All about isolation. Your hand plays substantially better heads up versus a short stack that should have a pretty wide push range rather than calling off/checking down with 3-4 other donks hoping your bingo numbers are drawn.

My goal in tournies is to accumulate as many chips as possible. I could care less about knocking someone out until it is just me and one other person.

Of course there are exceptions to the above but in general thats what I go with

[gauchojake]

Betting into a dry side pot isn't the same as shoving your two overs into a dry pot after you've missed the flop chasing off a potential knockout hand. I hear what you're saying though. There are definitely some people who don't understand basic tourney strategy and it's frustrating.

[SharpAngles]

Obv there are situations where it's correct to isolate but those don't come around nearly as much as some here believe. I agree that the end game of a tournament is getting all the chips but ask youself: which move maximizes my equity in this tournament? Chasing out callers and praying I'm good and hold up, or inviting them and having a better chance of knocking out a player. More often than not it's the latter.

Donk,

I actually agree with centaur on that hand. If the shorty is that short and I can steal a BB risk free I'll do it almost every time. Who cares if the guy with a SB now has a BB. I'm talking about the guys that push a flush draw on the flop or that shove over a 450 chip push when the blinds are 100/200. Unless you have a premium hand that you want to protect, it's hardly ever right.

[Slanina]

Agreed and disagree. If you hit the flop I would bet it to get them from sucking out and force the isolation. However, if you have nothing betting that makes absolutely no sense. I saw Carseller bet a dry pot yesterday on two different occasions. He had absolutely nothing. Not even a pair. I was confused at what I was witnessing.

[Auto Donk]

All about isolation. Your hand plays substantially better heads up versus a short stack that should have a pretty wide push range rather than calling off/checking down with 3-4 other donks hoping your bingo numbers are drawn.

My goal in tournies is to accumulate as many chips as possible. I could care less about knocking someone out until it is just me and one other person.

Of course there are exceptions to the above but in general thats what I go with

and thus you miss the boat.... typical donk response..... think about it: you don't get to the heads-up scenario you so desire until you knock the other mother f'ers, 3 through x, out!!!!! don't blow a golden opportunity to ethically and totally appropriately COLLUDE with another player to take two (or more) shots at the shortstack to ensure he get's knocked out and doesn't "chip and a chair" your ass and wind up knocking you out later all because you are a selfish, poor player that blew another player in the hand off of a draw that would've hit while you bluffed with air, only to thereafter get anally raped by that very ss after you stupidly chipped him up and kept him alive!!!!
Getting felted later by a player YOU are solely responsible for keeping in the tourney with your dumbass play must be the worst f'n feeling a player can endure in a particular touney.

let's see how you'd play this:

at a final table with 8 left, a short stack in mid to late pos with 850 chips left shoves on your bb (800).... one guy calls before you in late position (you both have about 4500 chips) you've got 27..... you're gonna what? raise to hopefully blow the other limper out to go heads up with your 27 against the shover, to get that oh so valuble dead money? call and see a flop? fold to save 50 chips (of course not)?

let's say you raise/shove over the top and the other caller folds and the ss reveals tens, kq, or ak, not only do you look like a blithering fool, you piss off the other guy who initially called, which would've given you two arrows to take out a player (a significant goal in any tourney, as you can't get to your heads up scenario without doing so).....

lets say you only called for the other 50, and the flop comes down and you miss it; whatcha gonna do? check?.... do you bluff at it here and try to steal the "dead" money with your shit hand --hopin to suck out on turn or riv against what most certainly has to be a better hand? knowing that in all likelihood the all-in ss is gonna take that "dead money" and you've just pissed off a guy by making him fold what might be a better hand than both yours and the ss's?

what if you had 44???? and had missed???

I know there are endless situations and the better your hand, the more credence there is to perhaps not checking it through. each scenario has to be evaluated on a variety of levels, but in the purest "I have air and am gonna blow the other non-ss's out of hand to take a chance at sucking out on the ss" scenario -- which u see often on s bullshit r -- there is little doubt it's an idiotic play that oh-so-often backfires.....

The scenario outlined above is one of the few times collusion among players is one hundred percent acceptable and the right play to make..... check it down to ensure you remove the ss, so he doesn' come back "reck-style" and bite you in the ass..... (damn i wish I could've found that thread where I handed some dumbass his head for bluffing with the ss all in only to get taken out by that very short stack after the ss doulbed up and came back to crush the trny! best example ever of what a stupid fck play stabbing at pots with ss all in is........ reck was the ss in that trny and the benefactor of the other idiot's fish play.)

Only selfishly bet in the majority of these ss all-in scenarios when u have the nutz or something damn close to em..... then u can get greedy and take chips off the other stack in the hand....... bluffing at pots with shit in this scenario in any real trny with real consequence will get u labeled as a pure fish and a fckhead........ if you are playing any real trny with the hope of playing pro, or impressing pros, that move will get u laffed at and you'll suffer a loss of credibility that it will take years, or at least a bracelet, to rebuild..........

just check the shit down if you don't have a hand; bet it strong if you flopped the nuts or something damn close to em (unless you are playing with sbr-type fish you think will foolishly try to blow you outta the hand, if so, slo roll nutz as per usual); otherwise--if your hand is mediocre, say mid and bottom pair on a well textured board, wait til the river to bet it if you just feel you have to bet.... OTHERWISE ENSURE THAT YOU BOTH HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE THE SS OUT..... Then you can get back to your mission of taking each other's chips.

[Ra77er]

[Auto Donk]

Obv there are situations where it's correct to isolate but those don't come around nearly as much as some here believe. I agree that the end game of a tournament is getting all the chips but ask youself: which move maximizes my equity in this tournament? Chasing out callers and praying I'm good and hold up, or inviting them and having a better chance of knocking out a player. More often than not it's the latter.

Donk,

I actually agree with centaur on that hand. If the shorty is that short and I can steal a BB risk free I'll do it almost every time. Who cares if the guy with a SB now has a BB. I'm talking about the guys that push a flush draw on the flop or that shove over a 450 chip push when the blinds are 100/200. Unless you have a premium hand that you want to protect, it's hardly ever right.

agree with u totally.... i didn't go back and re-review that hand or the thread (too much time to do so) but as i recall it, ss was WAY ss'ed, such that he was really of no consequence giving the blind levels and implications of doubling/tripling him up..... I had no real problem with centy's play, either, and think my comments in the thread said so

[Slanina]

Hilarious.

[downsouth]

and thus you miss the boat.... typical donk response..... think about it: you don't get to the heads-up scenario you so desire until you knock the other mother f'ers, 3 through x, out!!!!! don't blow a golden opportunity to ethically and totally appropriately COLLUDE with another player to take two (or more) shots at the shortstack to ensure he get's knocked out and doesn't "chip and a chair" your ass and wind up knocking you out later all because you are a selfish, poor player that blew another player in the hand off of a draw that would've hit while you bluffed with air, only to thereafter get anally raped by that very ss after you stupidly chipped him up and kept him alive!!!!
Getting felted later by a player YOU are solely responsible for keeping in the tourney with your dumbass play must be the worst f'n feeling a player can endure in a particular touney.

let's see how you'd play this:

at a final table with 8 left, a short stack in mid to late pos with 850 chips left shoves on your bb (800).... one guy calls before you in late position (you both have about 4500 chips) you've got 27..... you're gonna what? raise to hopefully blow the other limper out to go heads up with your 27 against the shover, to get that oh so valuble dead money? call and see a flop? fold to save 50 chips (of course not)?

let's say you raise/shove over the top and the other caller folds and the ss reveals tens, kq, or ak, not only do you look like a blithering fool, you piss off the other guy who initially called, which would've given you two arrows to take out a player (a significant goal in any tourney, as you can't get to your heads up scenario without doing so).....

lets say you only called for the other 50, and the flop comes down and you miss it; whatcha gonna do? check?.... do you bluff at it here and try to steal the "dead" money with your shit hand --hopin to suck out on turn or riv against what most certainly has to be a better hand? knowing that in all likelihood the all-in ss is gonna take that "dead money" and you've just pissed off a guy by making him fold what might be a better hand than both yours and the ss's?

what if you had 44???? and had missed???

I know there are endless situations and the better your hand, the more credence there is to perhaps not checking it through. each scenario has to be evaluated on a variety of levels, but in the purest "I have air and am gonna blow the other non-ss's out of hand to take a chance at sucking out on the ss" scenario -- which u see often on s bullshit r -- there is little doubt it's an idiotic play that oh-so-often backfires.....

The scenario outlined above is one of the few times collusion among players is one hundred percent acceptable and the right play to make..... check it down to ensure you remove the ss, so he doesn' come back "reck-style" and bite you in the ass..... (damn i wish I could've found that thread where I handed some dumbass his head for bluffing with the ss all in only to get taken out by that very short stack after the ss doulbed up and came back to crush the trny! best example ever of what a stupid fck play stabbing at pots with ss all in is........ reck was the ss in that trny and the benefactor of the other idiot's fish play.

Only selfishly bet in the majority of these ss all-in scenarios when u have the nutz or something damn close to em..... then u can get greedy and take chips off the other stack in the hand....... bluffing at pots with shit in this scenario in any real trny with real consequence will get u labeled as a pure fish and a fckhead........ if you are playing any real trny with the hope of playing pro, or impressing pros, that move will get u laffed at and you'll suffer a loss of credibility that it will take years, or at least a bracelet, to rebuild..........

just check the shit down if you don't have a hand; bet it strong if you flopped the nuts or something damn close to em; otherwise--if your hand is mediocre, say mid and bottom pair on a well textured board, wait til the river to bet it.... OTHERWISE ENSURE THAT YOU BOTH HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE THE SS OUT..... Then you can get back to your mission of taking each others chips.

OP did nothing to point out that it was just final table strategy. While my point was accumulate chips obviously along the way people are eliminated. And of course there are exceptions when dealing with final table play. But there is also a lot of opportunity to pick up easy chips/steal when tables are short and moving up spots causes most of table to play substantially tighter.

There are often times I have no problem with short stacks sticking around especially if I have a large stack as I know I will get plenty of opportunities to pick up blinds, limped pots, etc as the many players at this point are playing extremely tight.

Now if I have a middle/shorter stack and the reward of improvement is substantial then I can reason checking it down.



As for your first scenario of the small stack with barely one blind left in late position really doesn't have the opportunity to sit and wait on a top ten hand so his range can be very wide. He pushes his one blind and the Small blind calls hoping to check it down. At this point its basically dead money in the small blind if/when I raise so why not isolate in a scenario there a very good chance in that my cards are at least live?

At the end I lose the same thing if my hand was that bad in first place (1 blind). If 8th place guy hangs on and now has three blinds so be it. It will keep the rest of the table extra tight as they anticipate his departure. Difference in 8th and 7th probably not life altering anyway and if he only has three blinds after winning the hands odds are they will be in the pot again shortly.

And as far as labels and whether I piss off other guy is really irrelevant. Im not anticipating him doing me any favors because I was nice to him or allowed his week hand to limp into the pot and hit his card. If his hand was worth being in the pot in the first place he should have been the one to isolate and come take my anticpated dead money blind.

[Auto Donk]

OP did nothing to point out that it was just final table strategy. While my point was accumulate chips obviously along the way people are eliminated. And of course there are exceptions when dealing with final table play. But there is also a lot of opportunity to pick up easy chips/steal when tables are short and moving up spots causes most of table to play substantially tighter.

There are often times I have no problem with short stacks sticking around especially if I have a large stack as I know I will get plenty of opportunities to pick up blinds, limped pots, etc as the many players at this point are playing extremely tight.

Now if I have a middle/shorter stack and the reward of improvement is substantial then I can reason checking it down.



As for your first scenario of the small stack with barely one blind left in late position really doesn't have the opportunity to sit and wait on a top ten hand so his range can be very wide. He pushes his one blind and the Small blind calls hoping to check it down. At this point its basically dead money in the small blind if/when I raise so why not isolate in a scenario there a very good chance in that my cards are at least live?

At the end I lose the same thing if my hand was that bad in first place (1 blind). If 8th place guy hangs on and now has three blinds so be it. It will keep the rest of the table extra tight as they anticipate his departure. Difference in 8th and 7th probably not life altering anyway and if he only has three blinds after winning the hands odds are they will be in the pot again shortly.

And as far as labels and whether I piss off other guy is really irrelevant. Im not anticipating him doing me any favors because I was nice to him or allowed his week hand to limp into the pot and hit his card. If his hand was worth being in the pot in the first place he should have been the one to isolate and come take my anticpated dead money blind.

lot of good points I agree with....

only one i still have issue with, as far as sbr play, is the "i don't care about tripling him up" to 3 bb.... as I have seen sbr's tendancy to let these suddenly chipped up stacks go on rediculous runs after being given such life.... (just aren't enough chips in play since we start with so little, and the blinds escalate as they do......)

other than that tho (and i do see your point on that issue as well), a lot of very good points and insight!

[SharpAngles]

OP did nothing to point out that it was just final table strategy. While my point was accumulate chips obviously along the way people are eliminated. And of course there are exceptions when dealing with final table play. But there is also a lot of opportunity to pick up easy chips/steal when tables are short and moving up spots causes most of table to play substantially tighter.

I'm not just talking the final table. There is a lot of equity from 20 down to 10 if you've got a top 10 stack in these tournaments on SBR, and knocking someone out is worth points for everyone. You're helping yourself as much as the other players in the pot.

And while a real tourney will tighten up near the bubble, I can't say the same for this place. Gathering blinds and pressuring shorter stacks is correct but so many will call off with random hands in weird spots it makes it hard to dodge every mine here. Controlling a table only works if everyone cares about the money on it.

[SharpAngles]

Agreed and disagree. If you hit the flop I would bet it to get them from sucking out and force the isolation. However, if you have nothing betting that makes absolutely no sense. I saw Carseller bet a dry pot yesterday on two different occasions. He had absolutely nothing. Not even a pair. I was confused at what I was witnessing.

Funny, I watched you do the same thing more than once a couple days ago and also felt confused. At least you had over cards or flush draws but that's still pretty much nothing to be betting dry pots in these spots. Seen you play and you seem to have a brain so figured you were drunk or something.

[Auto Donk]

Funny, I watched you do the same thing more than once a couple days ago and also felt confused. At least you had over cards or flush draws but that's still pretty much nothing to be betting dry pots in these spots. Seen you play and you seem to have a brain so figured you were drunk or something.

If you've ever, at any time, watched me play, you have no need to "figure," you have seen me play drunk!

[BeerDog99]

In a tourney betting into a dry side pot with air is dumb in my opinion. If you have a hand that you want to protect or want to chip up, re-raise to isolate. If you flop a hand that likely is beating the shortstack and/or your draw is solid, then betting to again isolate and protect is a fine move in my opinion.

[Auto Donk]

Let me just sum this thread up once and for all..........betting a dry sidepot is like eating a dry pussy........ Just don't do it!!!!!!!!!!

[Jimmy Proffett]

There are times to bet into a dry side pot.... they are very few though. If I flop top 2 and there's two of the same suit on the board, I'm betting.... anything less than that I'm checking.... eff letting someone get a free look at a turn with a possible flush draw. Them chips are mine! There's a bunch of minutia involved in whether to bet or not bet, but saying never bet into a dry side pot..... any pro would tell you that's incorrect.

[Slanina]

Bump for the masses.