[daneblazer]

Lets say this:

UTG has AK
MP1 66
MP3 10 10
CO AQs

who played it best on the first round of action?

who played it well after the shove by CO?

who played it best overall?

Not a fan of the utg min raise. Maybe if the blinds were higher. Mp1 is okay to try to set mine tho he's oop. I'd rather fold. MP3 Basically set mining with TT there before the reraise. Pretty thin call there at best after the shove. I like the CO the best if the utg was a lag. If utg was tight, a better move would be to call and proceed with caution. Can't tell here without some history even tho utg has AK this particular hand. Sometimes you just catch the top of a lags range.

[downsouth]

Lets say this:

UTG has AK
MP1 66
MP3 10 10
CO AQs

who played it best on the first round of action?

who played it well after the shove by CO?

who played it best overall?

Not a big fan of the min raise UTG with AK, but again just really not a huge fan of min raise there period at those levels and with that stack size.

MP1 with 66 set mining is ok I guess, Im probably not doing it in that position but I cannot completely say its terrible.

MP3, cannot like call there, I push in hopes of iso. CO probably folds AQ with UTG min raise followed by shove and you have to assume shove comes from UTG to push out MP1

CO- I probalby shove there more times than not. Unless I know something about UTG that tells me other wise.

SO it worked out perfectly for MP3 as he turns up 10 10 and has both opponents with common ace and terrible for CO but still cannot fault a shove there in my donkular opinion.

[GUMMO77]

In SBR poker, I don't mind limping UTG with AK, KK, and sometimes QQ (if the blinds are really low) for the mere fact that someone will shove all in with AQ or AJ a lot of times and AK becomes a monster.

IMO the MP3 made a terrible call with 10's in this spot. UTG could easly have AA, KK, QQ. Plus 10's with more than one person all in -- unless there is an extreme short stack that called-- isn't profitable.

[milwaukee mike]

i'm not sure what is to be gained by discussing poker strategy with the very same people you are playing against.
By calling them out and potentially criticizing their play, the only possible outcomes are that they will:
1) ignore you and continue to play that way
2) agree and play better
3) quit playing altogether, removing a weak player

None of those 3 are going to MAKE you money over the long run, and 2 of the 3 are going to LOSE you money. And the person reading it, who you are criticizing, is going to like you a little bit less.

[downsouth]

i'm not sure what is to be gained by discussing poker strategy with the very same people you are playing against.
By calling them out and potentially criticizing their play, the only possible outcomes are that they will:
1) ignore you and continue to play that way
2) agree and play better
3) quit playing altogether, removing a weak player

None of those 3 are going to MAKE you money over the long run, and 2 of the 3 are going to LOSE you money. And the person reading it, who you are criticizing, is going to like you a little bit less.

lol, its SBR they never quit. If you tell someone they play bad, they will generally tell you how you couldnt possibly know what your talking about. Probably cite a few reasons of why they dont play bad, usually using stats like Ive played xxx for x years and made money blah blah blah. Or I was a beta tester for here/there or wherever .

Or they will bust out the I play different because this is SBR for points then I would play if this was a "real" game.

Its all in good fun, share strategy, critique, or just tell someone there a moron. Its the poker player way.

[milwaukee mike]

lol, its SBR they never quit. If you tell someone they play bad, they will generally tell you how you couldnt possibly know what your talking about. Probably cite a few reasons of why they dont play bad, usually using stats like Ive played xxx for x years and made money blah blah blah. Or I was a beta tester for here/there or wherever .

Or they will bust out the I play different because this is SBR for points then I would play if this was a "real" game.

Its all in good fun, share strategy, critique, or just tell someone there a moron. Its the poker player way.

they might tell you that, but also put some thought into how to play better/differently, or if they have half a brain they will use your opinion of their play against you.

then again I have been at sbr long enough to know that "half a brain" is giving a large % of our poker players too much credit

[daneblazer]

i'm not sure what is to be gained by discussing poker strategy with the very same people you are playing against.
By calling them out and potentially criticizing their play, the only possible outcomes are that they will:
1) ignore you and continue to play that way
2) agree and play better
3) quit playing altogether, removing a weak player

None of those 3 are going to MAKE you money over the long run, and 2 of the 3 are going to LOSE you money. And the person reading it, who you are criticizing, is going to like you a little bit less.

In between the hundreds of bad beat and "Rigged" threads there are, it's refreshing to have some actual hands discussed. While you're correct on those accounts, it's also SBR. Some people will never leave, improve, or change the way they play no matter what they are told. I don't mind discussing poker here because I don't play here all that much. It's not like I'm sitting down training the old farmers and frat boys I play against live. If some SBR players can improve their play discussing hands here I'm all for it. It keeps me from being worse than I actually am too.

[milwaukee mike]

where are these games against old farmers and frat boys?
I want in

[daneblazer]

Gretna, FL. Come on down.

[milwaukee mike]

Gretna, FL. Come on down.

lucky you, I always wanted to move to florida or vegas.
looks like vegas will win in a couple years...

[RudyRuetigger]

Or maybe poker will be legal in the usa soon and we can focus on getting better

[RudyRuetigger]

I think CO was the only person to play it well the first time around and its not even close imo. the only other time someone else could have played the hand well is if they show up with exactly aa

2nd time around everyone played it properly imo but I don't have pokerstove anymore.

[ballahollic2]

i really don't think UTG played it badly. I would be making it like 235 but these tournaments don't play very well. We are only getting the info also of the people in the hand. I think to have the best sample we need all chip stacks behind to act. if someone has <9.5bbs he can't be making it 250+ and not be calling off in a lot of spots.Thats a key bit of info that is being not included IMO.

[GUMMO77]

Why only the CO? UTG is the person who got the CO to go all in with an inferior hand.

[ballahollic2]

i just wanna say also that obv the CO is going to be perceived as the "better" play and is the better play in the sense of once he ships in that spot with all that dead money in there his play is the best if we stop it there, and long run will win the most money but My point of saying the UTG play was better earlier was because once we know the utg calls off I think he is a lot of the times ahead of the CO's shipping range (I don't think his play is better just I think he is ahead once called off) MP1 can't call and MP3 I could care less about. In this particular spot tho the utg and the CO's hands are just coolers. But saying the utg's play is far worse then the CO's play I don't agree with. The UTG did everything more or less right. Long run the CO will make more money playing the hand like that 100% but utg should be calling off pairs and AQ+ in that spot which is what he did.

[GUMMO77]

I'm with you, Ball. With all that dead money in the pot and the way it was played, AQ is +ev when shoving all in, usually. The only person that should have a hand where the CO if dominated is player 1 ... which happens to be the case here. The other players (mp1, mp3) should have some sort of pocket pairs if they are going to call, which also gives you +ev on your AQ hand because of all the loose money in the hand.

[RudyRuetigger]

It's not a question on whether UTG should call or fold to the all in. Its a call from anyone at the table unless you are sure its a 100% nit that is multitabling (not happening at Sbr).


We are raising for value with AKo. At SBR, Axs+, A10o+, pocket pairs, 2 face cards, (and probably a bit more) are still in the calling range if we make it around 3bbs and we have less people to deal with than the random j9's so a Cbet on a dry board should take it down. I'm not fist pumping an all in call after I min raise from anyone on the table except cutoff and dealer.

On this hand, if cutoff only called, how are we going to proceed if no A or K comes? Check fold? Seems like a horrible line (min raise,check/fold), but with so many in the pot that is basically what we have to do. With the pot so bloated we can't realistically bluff.

Also, if cutoff only called, I'd call from the BB with any two decent cards (24s+) and would have the best relative position at the table. Check flop, when it came back to me its a simple shove/fold.

[daneblazer]

One reason we raise is to hopefully take the pot down there. A min raise at 50/100 has little chance to do that utg imo...at least here. If the blinds were 100/200, it'd be a little different. MP1's play is ok tho he's a bit oop and MP3 just needs to shove not call.

We're looking at this too much from a single hand standpoint. So yeah he min raised and got CO to shove with a worse hand. Without knowing the types of players, AQ is about the best UTG can hope for the CO to have (the lower bottom of his range). You take 77+, AQ+. AQos+ KQs KQos as his shoving range and you're flipping. If you expand that to include all broadway cards (not likely unless he's a lag) AKos is about a 60% fave there.

So strictly thinking of this like a cash game, a one hand analysis, AK must call...esp with the possibility of the added value of either of the two MP players behind him calling. But this isn't a cash game. If UTG calls and loses, he's down to 3BB with the blinds hitting him the next hand. It's all but over. Thanks for playing.

It's still relatively early in the tournament. Without doing the ICM calculations, I'm almost positive that the amount of equity UTG risks losing with a call there isn't worth the equity he gains. Even with the extra $ in the pot. What the cutoff has done, intentionally or inadvertently, with that shove is make it a -EV play for UTG to call with anything outside of QQ KK AA.

That's one reason why I think the CO made the best play.

[thetrinity]

mp3 played it the worst, he has to shove in that spot with 1010, mp1 i can live with, im the fine with the utg call, i doubt hes ever up against aa or kk the way it played out. first, he has a blocker to each. 2nd, i dont think guys are often shoving aa or kk with 22 bbs, i think they are probably making it around 7 or 8 and setting up a flop shove. 3rd, he could be up against aq or aj or another ak and theres enough dead money in the pot to justify racing in this spot. i kinda think the aq shove is loose IMO, but ive seen a lot worse. only guy i think plays it really bad is mp3.