1. #1
    daneblazer
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    SBR Poker Concept - Vol 1 - Attacking Limpers

    As a contribution to SBR, I wanted to begin a little series on some poker concepts I've learned over my 10+ years of playing cards. There will primarily be no-limit principles and novice, but every now and then we'll go over some deeper thinking.

    I am by no means the greatest poker player in the world...there are others out there who would humble me...but...I have been a winning player every year I have played.

    Why start something like this? I have a difficult time being motivated. The ups and downs of poker have gotten to me to the point where what I win playing poker, even though I enjoy it, don't outweigh the emotional stress. I need to start thinking poker again. I may play against you guys online, but I'll rarely ever play you live or on another site. ...so... With that said,

    Discussion is welcome

    and with that said, let's begin.

    If you asked me what the biggest flaw that SBR players have, I would say their ability to attack limpers. All too often, I observe hands like

    Blinds 50/100
    Player1 : Call 100
    Player2: Call 100
    Player3: fold
    Player4: (who has KK) Raise 300

    Now...without evening knowing anything about the rest of the players, stack size, or anything else involving the hand, there is something wrong here.

    We get caught up in the 3x the bb raise, or the (Sb+BB x 2 )raise and don't adjust to the other players in the pot. Raising a standard 300 here just bloats the pot. Let's pretend we are 6 handed. Player 5 in the SB has 250 to speculate on a call and the BB has 200 to spec. Sure someone who limped could raise...but is it likely? Not really. And even if they raised, you're in a position with KK to call them as only AA beats you.

    So...limp limp fold raise to 300 call call call call.

    If the flop is A xx, congrats, you know you're behind. If the flop is 3 5 8 guess what? You're still in trouble. Here's why.

    When you raise 300 into a pot with 2 limpers, you are just bloating the pot. That means every spec hand and/or set miner is against you. Your KK bet of 300 may be good against one hand, but it's not good against several hands. At that point, you aren't playing against a hand, you're playing against numerous hands!

    So what can we do?

    The 3X the BB raise is fine, but add a BB to it with every limper. So...

    Blinds 50/100
    Player1 : Call 100
    Player2: Call 100
    Player3: fold
    Player4: (who has KK) Raise 500

    Raise another 100 if you want. Some players go by 4x the bb. That will deter what I call "the train" of players repetitively calling and then YOU will be against a player with a weaker hand in a bad situation.

    AAAAAAnd that leads us to the obvious fact that I'll borrow from another site.....

    "Limpers suck at poker". Nobody who open limps constantly wins. When a player open limps, then most of the time, are speculating. So what you want to do when you feel like you have a better hand, is raise them. That not only knocks the other crap out of the hand, but it isolates you with the better hand against the player who has the worse hand.

    Let's take the same crappy example from above.


    Blinds 50/100
    Player1 : (98os) Call 100
    Player2: Call 100
    Player3: fold
    Player4: (who has KK) Raise 500
    Player 5: folds
    Player 6: folds
    Player 1: calls (400)
    Player 2: folds

    So without knowing anything about the hand, you're already KK vs. 89 os on the flop.

    So my point is: take what you standard raise and add a BB per limper

    This point isn't a end all, but it shows the benefits of isolating limpers.

    Good luck
    Last edited by daneblazer; 10-10-12 at 04:32 PM.
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  2. #2
    thetrinity
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    first im going to assume you are talking about the daily tournaments.

    i agree to an extent on point 1, but i think 500 is way too much for the 50/100 level. id prefer to make it 350ish. most players arent folding pairs and looking to set mine on here even for 20%+ of their stack. i want to try and double up early myself, if they hit, then thats poker. i think its reaching to say the blinds will both be in as well, most of the times we will be 3 handed in this type of situation.

    i still want action with kk, especially in a shovefest like this a big pair holds more value. most players wont fold top pair and if the a hits then its an easy fold anyways, what if you make it 500 and the a hits, then you are in no mans land IMO.

    i definitely agree with part 2, i never open limp aside from these tournaments (and i do it less then anyone else im sure) and thats only because i get away with it when i shouldnt really be able 2.

  3. #3
    dumbmoney
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    Dane I respect your play and I'm by no means any authority but just adding my thoughts. My fear with raising 500 at that point is that you scare off everyone and take down a small pot. Yes you can make the argument that its better to win a small pot then lose a large one, and kk is vulnerable to an ace on the flop, and there are a lot of variables like stack size etc.. but a lot of times I like to try and get more action out of my really premium hands rather than just pick up 3 big blinds. I think a flop like 3 5 8 is pretty safe even with 3 callers. Yeah someone may have flopped a set, but its still unlikely and you're much more likely to catch someone with pocket 10s or jacks to call a large bet and actually double up.

  4. #4
    BeerDog99
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    I guess it really boils down to how you want to play and what your raise is for.

    If your intent is to pump the pot to hopefully double up, then a smaller raise will do it. It is a bigger gamble for a potentially bigger return.

    If you are trying isolate a weaker hand, a bigger raise should be more effective.

    the

  5. #5
    thetrinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbmoney View Post
    Dane I respect your play and I'm by no means any authority but just adding my thoughts. My fear with raising 500 at that point is that you scare off everyone and take down a small pot. Yes you can make the argument that its better to win a small pot then lose a large one, and kk is vulnerable to an ace on the flop, and there are a lot of variables like stack size etc.. but a lot of times I like to try and get more action out of my really premium hands rather than just pick up 3 big blinds. I think a flop like 3 5 8 is pretty safe even with 3 callers. Yeah someone may have flopped a set, but its still unlikely and you're much more likely to catch someone with pocket 10s or jacks to call a large bet and actually double up.
    here ull get paid off with just the 8 not even pocket jj or 1010. maaybe even 77 or 66

  6. #6
    TheCentaur
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    It's rigged anyway so what does it matter? You might as well keep a baccarat card or write down roll data at a craps table.

  7. #7
    daneblazer
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    Have been out of the loop lately. I wanted to show this primarily for cash game play, but it certainly applies for tournaments. Looking over it, I didn't use the best examples, something like AQ would have been better, but the principle remains the same. Aspects like stack size, flop texture, types of players certainly come into play. The only thing I would caution about raising it to something like 350 is that it probably won't accomplish the goal of isolating limpers and even worse, if you begin adjusting your bets based on what you have you will begin giving away bet sizing tells.

  8. #8
    RonPaul2008
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    No offense to the OP, but this is all obvious.

  9. #9
    elgreco
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    Thanks for taking the time Daneblazer. Keep them coming.

  10. #10
    Optional
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    Thanks Dane. Nice food for thought for me, as a player that pretty much always plays 300 in that situation.

  11. #11
    milwaukee mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCentaur View Post
    It's rigged anyway so what does it matter? You might as well keep a baccarat card or write down roll data at a craps table.
    this

    again today for about the 10th time in a row i shove with aa and lose all-in to q8

    it would be ok if it happened once in a while, but just like i saw with thaddeus the software is rigged against people with a ton of points that cash them in

  12. #12
    Living The Dream
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    Points fairy with some good advice

  13. #13
    RudyRuetigger
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    Have to disagree

    A min raise says I have a hand, but I'm here to party as well
    Last edited by RudyRuetigger; 10-15-12 at 11:58 PM.
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  14. #14
    4uk4life
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    Why you wanna attack handicap people bro?

  15. #15
    Avskum
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    daneblazer what limit do you play at in a regular poker room ?

  16. #16
    daneblazer
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    Usually play 1/2 live at the local card room...occasionally 2/5 when there's a table going that I like.

    Online I mostly multi-tabled 50nl back before the sites were shut down. Now when I play online I'll play 2-3 tables of 50nl or 100nl, but I don't play much online anymore. Just dick around on SBR

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