[Emily_Haines]

Playing 1/2 NL and I have pocket KK in BB

A short stack guy in mid position raised to 15 with one caller and back to me in BB. I reraise to 45 and the both call. I have about 400 and both players covered. Wasn't concerned with the short stack guy but the other guy was very laggy and hard to put on a hand.

Flop comes JT9 rainbow

I lead out and bet 100

The short stack guy calls the all in with his last 73 and the other guy moves all in for 246. I figure I'm probably beat but there is 554 in the pot and I do have a gut shot. It is 146 to call and I'm getting close to 4:1. I doubt he his making a move with a hand like AQ or QJ.

I call the all in and the villain had a set of 9's. I did not improve.

I think a 1/2 pot bet of 65-70 would have yield the same result if he whiffed the flop as a 100 bet. In this scenario if the villain moved all in I think maybe I could have got away from it as it would have been close to 200 to call.

[BeerDog99]

As with all your posts, this is a hard one... :-)

If you don't believe he is making this move with AQ / QJ, then he either has AA/JJ/TT/99 or air. I think you discount AA as he probably would have shoved pre-flop to hopefully isolate the shortstack or just all of the money in.

Since he is a "lag", then where would you put his air range? 25%? My basic understanding of pot odds says that is you think it is 75% beat versus 25% not beat, it is 3:1, therefore unless I am missing something (which I might be), you did not have the correct odds to call.

Obviously this is not counting your re-draws which might tip it over to a call but that would start to hurt my brain this early in the morning..:-)

Don't take this the wrong way, I think most good poker players would get stacked in this situation because it is pretty dam hard to think through the hand like this live and also when you get big pocket pairs (rarely) you need to get as much value as you can on a rainbow board.

I think your option of making a smaller flop bet is a line you can take but then it basically assumes you are looking for a way to get out of the hand if he shoves.

Just my opinion.

I enjoy your posts, thanks!

[daneblazer]

Raise more preflop. Against a raise of 15 and a caller you're giving them odds to call. Raise it to at least 60 preferably 75 to try to knock one of them out of the hand and it won't give them good odds to set mine. If they're going to call with inferior hands, might as well charge them a hefty fee. The short stack may even come over the top of you and go all in which wouldn't be a bad result either.

As it played out, with the villains call/call preflop, a flop of JT9 nailed a ton of hands in his range. I wouldn't feel good about my chances 3 handed and would consider check folding the flop.

[borednaz]

sometimes it's not about being priced in to call. The second you say to yourself.. But I have outs, you should know your beat and not chase.

[rki999]

B agressive with big pairsYou win in the long run

[BeerDog99]

Raise more preflop. Against a raise of 15 and a caller you're giving them odds to call. Raise it to at least 60 preferably 75 to try to knock one of them out of the hand and it won't give them good odds to set mine. If they're going to call with inferior hands, might as well charge them a hefty fee. The short stack may even come over the top of you and go all in which wouldn't be a bad result either.

So I guess you are not a fan of small ball poker?? :-)

Seriously though, do you not think 75 is way too high of a raise if you want some action? Or is your point to shut down the action right there? I think a 75 raise there would either shut down the action right there or it will play out like it actually happenned.

So if your point is to shut down the action, I agree with the 75 raise, otherwise, I would probably stay with 45 raise.

As it played out, with the villains call/call preflop, a flop of JT9 nailed a ton of hands in his range. I wouldn't feel good about my chances 3 handed and would consider check folding the flop.

This part is harder. If you have invested 45-75 already pre-flop, I think you have to at least make an attempt at the pot.

[Emily_Haines]

Raise more preflop. Against a raise of 15 and a caller you're giving them odds to call. Raise it to at least 60 preferably 75 to try to knock one of them out of the hand and it won't give them good odds to set mine. If they're going to call with inferior hands, might as well charge them a hefty fee. The short stack may even come over the top of you and go all in which wouldn't be a bad result either.

As it played out, with the villains call/call preflop, a flop of JT9 nailed a ton of hands in his range. I wouldn't feel good about my chances 3 handed and would consider check folding the flop.

I think you are correct because I knew the second I put the bet out there was hardly any chance the LAG would have folded. The short stack seemed committed to the hand and most certainly would have called or shoved. Next time for sure I am raising more preflop.

[Emily_Haines]

This part is harder. If you have invested 45-75 already pre-flop, I think you have to at least make an attempt at the pot.

There is no way I'm not taking a shot at this pot. The problem with the capped buy in games is that once the pot gets inflated you can get committed especially when in situations where it's not that much to call.

[daneblazer]

So I guess you are not a fan of small ball poker?? :-)

Seriously though, do you not think 75 is way too high of a raise if you want some action? Or is your point to shut down the action right there? I think a 75 raise there would either shut down the action right there or it will play out like it actually happenned.

So if your point is to shut down the action, I agree with the 75 raise, otherwise, I would probably stay with 45 raise.

This part is harder. If you have invested 45-75 already pre-flop, I think you have to at least make an attempt at the pot.

I certainly wouldn't fault putting out a probe continuation bet, but with that flop and against two other players, you're probably behind and need to shut it down if you're called or played back at. We have to ask ourselves what do we beat that is going to reraise us there? AJ? QQ? We're behind against AA, JJ, TT, 99, KQ, JT, 78 and a few other hands.

As for the pf raise, one of the biggest mistakes people make preflop is not adjusting their raises to the amount of players in the hand. If your standard raise is 3x the bb or standard 3bet is 3x the initial raise (everyone is different), you should add at least one more unit to your raise per limper/caller. Here we have a raise to 15 and a caller, so if your standard 3bet is 3x the initial raise, add at least $15 more for each caller. You'll still get action, if they call a raise to $45 they'll probably call a raise to $60. KK is a great hand, but certainly isn't bullet proof especially when we have multiple players in a pot. Also, with the hand in this thread, we're going to play the rest of the hand out of position and winning a $33 pot without confrontation in a 1/2 game isn't that bad of a deal.

[BeerDog99]

Good points Dane and Emily!

[lolguy999]

Emily dont knock yourself out with the 45 raise IMO it was pretty good because it really guarrenties a call from both parties given their odds and their shit odds to improve unless they have AA or KK. You played it right and got caught in a bad beat and let's face it, 99 guy will probaby call a raise to 60 too if shortstack calls or moves in and will hit his set nonetheless, but if you're saying that you coulda taken the pot down right there it's really foolish to not give the second best starting hand in holdem a chance with KK preflop u want to get paid,

Personally i like "sure things" and 45 pretty much guarrenties a call from both parties if they have say pair or AQ. Deepstacks suckouts are the most painful i know. But really there wasn't much you could do...

[Ian]

You're not going to get accurate answers without posting the stack sizes of your opponents. It looks like the bigger stack of your two opponents has about $300, but it's also important to know the stack size of the short stack, even if he's not your primary concern.

For example, if you repop to $45 and the short stack calls with a $45 stack you put yourself in a terrible spot. The other opponent will be getting a good price to call and there will be no side pot. With an empty side pot it makes absolutely zero sense to continuation bet bluff with a hand like AK, so when you bet you're essentially turning your hand face up and you'll only get action from a hand that beats an overpair.

On the other hand, if the short stack has $95 then a preflop reraise to $45 total is a pretty good number. The short stack won't have odds to set mine, is short enough to shove with hands other than AA, and if he does call he's usually going to call a flop c-bet that puts him all-in. This last situation is great for you because now the 3rd player can't bluff you off the best hand because the side pot is too small and he still has to show down a hand to beat the all-in player and win the money.

So, again, you're not going to get accurate replies unless you post the stack sizes of both opponents.