Supreme Court ingame decision thread

[rkelly110]

C'mon jarval, WTF? So I guess every industrialized country who has universal health care is given up for free?
Duh, the people are taxed for it. Yes, another tax we have to burden, but no different than eveything else.

If you think about it, with more people paying, rates have to go down. Especially if the govt throws in a health care
plan. IDK about you guys, but I can find better things to do with $500 a month than pay insurance. Eh?

[BuddyBear]

LOL conservative agenda = epic fail in everything.

[d2bets]

Guys, clearly the decision to call this a tax is correct. You're not being forced to buy health insurance any more than you're forced to fund your 401(k), make charitable gifts, take our a mortgage, etc etc. In each case, you pay extra tax if you don't take a certain action provided in the code. If you don't purchase health insurance, you pay extra tax of $150-700 or thereabouts. If you rent instead of mortgage you also pay a penalty in the form of more tax. If you don't fund your 401(k) you have more taxable income and you pay more tax. Government incentivizes all sorts of economic activity. Now you may not like that approach, but clearly these kinds of taxes are constitutional.

[andywend]

Guys, clearly the decision to call this a tax is correct. You're not being forced to buy health insurance any more than you're forced to fund your 401(k), make charitable gifts, take our a mortgage, etc etc. In each case, you pay extra tax if you don't take a certain action provided in the code. If you don't purchase health insurance, you pay extra tax of $150-700 or thereabouts. If you rent instead of mortgage you also pay a penalty in the form of more tax. If you don't fund your 401(k) you have more taxable income and you pay more tax. Government incentivizes all sorts of economic activity. Now you may not like that approach, but clearly these kinds of taxes are constitutional.

I agree with you D2Bets but the question remains, why did Obama and the democrats refuse to admit that the health care mandate was indeed a tax?

Why not tell the American people the truth and then explain why he was forced into breaking his promise of not raising taxes on Americans with incomes less than $250K/year?

As long as emergency rooms are forced to treat everyone regardless of ability to pay, then it only makes sense that everyone be required to purchase health insurance.

[andywend]

If you think about it, with more people paying, rates have to go down. Especially if the govt throws in a health care plan. IDK about you guys, but I can find better things to do with $500 a month than pay insurance. Eh?

Do you honestly believe that solely due to government involvement, the price of health care is going to decrease dramatically without a severe underlying decrease in its quality?

The public educational system spends 2X as much per student as private schools with private schools delivering a far superior product.

Even at rock bottom interest rates, the return on social security is absolutely horrible assuming the plan still exists when the next generation begins to collect.

If ObamaCare is so great, why did the liberal politicians who drafted it make sure to EXCLUDE themselves, their families and over 1000 labor unions from having to participate in it. Even before its fully implemented, the democrats know exactly how bad its going to be.

Doesn't that scare you even a little bit?

[ChalkyDog]

Do you honestly believe that solely due to government involvement, the price of health care is going to decrease dramatically without a severe underlying decrease in its quality?

The public educational system spends 2X as much per student as private schools with private schools delivering a far superior product.

Even at rock bottom interest rates, the return on social security is absolutely horrible assuming the plan still exists when the next generation begins to collect.

If ObamaCare is so great, why did the liberal politicians who drafted it make sure to EXCLUDE themselves, their families and over 1000 labor unions from having to participate in it. Even before its fully implemented, the democrats know exactly how bad its going to be.

Doesn't that scare you even a little bit?

Are you of the opinion insurance companies such as united health, aetna, etc will all dissolve into some obamacare insurance?

You do realize, if you're insured currently, this really has little to no effect.

I don't understand the thought process where everyone thinks their private insurance is about to turn into the DMV.

Hell, even the poor people, will only be given credits to buy private insurance. The Medicade pool didn't expand to encompass more people. I.e., if you are too poor to be taxed by the mandate, but earn too much to not qualify for Medicade - you get credits to off-set the purchase of private insurance.

Where the fukk are you coming up with this shit?

[ChalkyDog]

[jarvol]

As long as emergency rooms are forced to treat everyone regardless of ability to pay, then it only makes sense that everyone be required to purchase health insurance.

Repealing the EMTALA legislation from 1982 would another good thing that could get done if people stopped being sheep and voting for worthless R's and worthless D's.

[jarvol]

Sorry guys just trying to get 20 post to enable sending a PM.

Thanks for contributing nothing. If you are new here then who the fukk you so eager to PM?

[KingJD31]

Most ridiculous shit ever most republicans are against being under parents insurance until 26, nice try though

[jarvol]

Most ridiculous shit ever most republicans are against being under parents insurance until 26, nice try though

Let the marketplace decide what kind of options to offer/purchase. If there is demand for it then entrepreneurial companies will offer it.
It should have nothing to do with government. Let supply and demand work as it has since the beginning of time.

[ChalkyDog]

Quite honestly, I hope the government steps in an ends this ridiculous 2 year commitment bullshit with cell phones. I am not talking about Obama phone, I am talking about simply ending that goddamn horseshit policy. Only country on earth that allows corporations to get away with highway robbery of its people. Funny part is all the shitheads that thank them for doing it.

[The Kraken]

The very important aspect of the decision is that the commerce provision does NOT apply. This will end up being the most important feature of this decision.

[d2bets]

The very important aspect of the decision is that the commerce provision does NOT apply. This will end up being the most important feature of this decision.

How so? What particular interstate commerce activity (or inactivity as the case may be) does Congress want to regulate, but now can't because of this decision? I'm not sure there is any. This was a pretty unique situation.

[Thor4140]

Who is this miserable fuk AndyWend?

I'll tell you who he isn't.

He isn't the man who stuck his thumb in the sucking chest wound of his buddy in a God-forsaken rice paddy.

He isn't the man who served his community as mayor, alderman, police officer or school teacher.

He isn't the man who poured steel, laid asphalt or roofed buildings alongside other working men.

He isn't the man who borrowed every penny he could to start his dream of a small business , and worked 24/7 to make it a success.

He isn't the man who adopted an abandoned child.

He isn't the man who gave his last ten dollars to a homeless person.

He isn't the man who spent two weeks at his own expense, and worked 20 hour days cleaning up after hurricane Hugo.

He isn't the man who teaches English to immigrants at his local library.

He isn't the man who volunteers three nights a week at the free clinic.

He isn't the man who thinks the maid who cleans his toilet is an equal human being.

None of the above.

He's Joe Neocon:

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare
his morning coffee. The water is clean and safe because some tree-hugging liberal fought for maximum water-quality standards.

With his first swallow of coffee, he takes his daily medication. His
medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to insure their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical
plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid
medical insurance - and now Joe gets it, too.

He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe
to eat because some girlie-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the
meat-packing industry.

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is
properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents
because some crybaby granola liberal fought for his right to know what he
was putting on his body.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air is clean
because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for laws to stop
industries from polluting our atmosphere.

He walks to the subway station for his government-subsidized ride to
work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees
because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public
transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with good pay, medical
benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some commie leftist union members fought and died for these working standards.

Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't
want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes
unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some ridiculous liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It's noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some
bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FDIC because some godless
liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who gamed the banking system just before the Great Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some liberal whiner decided that
Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at
his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is
among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal traitor
fought for car safety standards.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live
in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal (FDR) stuck his nose where it didn't belong and created the rural electrification act.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on
Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking,
quiche-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe
wouldn't have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk
show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives
are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved conservative Republicans
fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day.

Joe agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our
lives! After all, I'm a self-made man! All Americans should take care of
themselves, just as I have.
________________

[BuddyBear]

This forum is full of conservatives. One of the most conservative forums I have ever come across - that isn't political in nature.

Reminds me when people in this country think the media is liberal.

Actually, it is weird, I came across a study some time ago that looked at internet message boards and political expression and the overall conclusion was that conservative opinions dominate message boards. That is, the distribution of conservative opinions on message boards did not match the true percentage of conservative and liberal opinions one would expect. SBR falls nicely into this. For every 1 liberal talking politics on here, there are maybe 10 loudmouth conservatives. When in reality, the majority of posters are probably liberal or liberal leaning.

And for the second point, there is absolutely 100% no such thing as a liberal media. It's a fictitious construct created by conservative talk radio. There has never been any empirical evidence to support such a claim. In fact, all the evidence points to the contrary.

[Tully Mars 63]

Actually, it is weird, I came across a study some time ago that looked at internet message boards and political expression and the overall conclusion was that conservative opinions dominate message boards. That is, the distribution of conservative opinions on message boards did not match the true percentage of conservative and liberal opinions one would expect. SBR falls nicely into this. For every 1 liberal talking politics on here, there are maybe 10 loudmouth conservatives. When in reality, the majority of posters are probably liberal or liberal leaning.

And for the second point, there is absolutely 100% no such thing as a liberal media. It's a fictitious construct created by conservative talk radio. There has never been any empirical evidence to support such a claim. In fact, all the evidence points to the contrary.

MSNBC is absolutely liberal. I can not see how you could view it any other way, unless it's changed. I haven't got it in the past few years it got grouped with some channels I simply didn't want to pay for so it's not available in my house. I do get Fox and watch it off n on during the day. One thing I've noticed about them over the years is they get a topic and it will be on every show all day and the exact same terms will be used to explain that issue. Whether it's "war on Christmas" or "activists judges" the issue will be on every show with the exact same language.

But I do understand what you're saying. The thing I find with the right is they label anything that doesn't agree with them 100% as liberal. so to many anything but Fox is liberal. Look at the response Justice Roberts recently enjoyed. He went from being the man to a traitor over night. I don't see this behavior so much on the left. Maddow has a book out right now, Drift, and in it she makes arguments that contradict the lefts, Rupert Murdock said he found the book a "decent read." I don't see anyone offering t-shirts with her photo and the word "traitor" on it.

[rkelly110]

How much better would the economy be if working Americans that have insurance through work, didn't have to
pay a minimum of $500 a month? Not including co pays and deductibles?

Wouldn't it be nice to cancel your insurance through work, find your own across state lines or buy a govt insurance
policy at a quarter of what you're paying now? Can you say competition?

How much extra money would you have? $500 a month is 1/2 a house payment, a really nice truck/ car and tons
of other stuff.

Do you think employers would love to get rid of the expense of heath insurance? Let the employee find his own?
Would that help with job creation? Small business', the backbone of America, would absolutely love the idea.
Since all costs of doing business is passed on to us, would the price of products and services come down?

Now, write your Representative and tell him or her to not repeal, but to make it better. They can take the word
Obama, out of Obama care if that offends them. When in actuality, it's the Affordable Heath care Act.

[Tully Mars 63]

He's Joe Neocon:

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare
his morning coffee. The water is clean and safe because some tree-hugging liberal fought for maximum water-quality standards.

With his first swallow of coffee, he takes his daily medication. His
medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to insure their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical
plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid
medical insurance - and now Joe gets it, too.

He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe
to eat because some girlie-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the
meat-packing industry.

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is
properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents
because some crybaby granola liberal fought for his right to know what he
was putting on his body.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air is clean
because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for laws to stop
industries from polluting our atmosphere.

He walks to the subway station for his government-subsidized ride to
work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees
because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public
transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with good pay, medical
benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some commie leftist union members fought and died for these working standards.

Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't
want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes
unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some ridiculous liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It's noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some
bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FDIC because some godless
liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who gamed the banking system just before the Great Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some liberal whiner decided that
Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at
his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is
among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal traitor
fought for car safety standards.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live
in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal (FDR) stuck his nose where it didn't belong and created the rural electrification act.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on
Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking,
quiche-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe
wouldn't have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk
show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives
are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved conservative Republicans
fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day.

Joe agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our
lives! After all, I'm a self-made man! All Americans should take care of
themselves, just as I have.
________________

This reminds me of Craig T. Nelson on Glenn Beck-

I've been on food stamps and welfare, did anybody help me out? No.

What the fukk did he think welfare and food stamps were?

[BuddyBear]

MSNBC is absolutely liberal. I can not see how you could view it any other way, unless it's changed. I haven't got it in the past few years it got grouped with some channels I simply didn't want to pay for so it's not available in my house. I do get Fox and watch it off n on during the day. One thing I've noticed about them over the years is they get a topic and it will be on every show all day and the exact same terms will be used to explain that issue. Whether it's "war on Christmas" or "activists judges" the issue will be on every show with the exact same language.

But I do understand what you're saying. The thing I find with the right is they label anything that doesn't agree with them 100% as liberal. so to many anything but Fox is liberal. Look at the response Justice Roberts recently enjoyed. He went from being the man to a traitor over night. I don't see this behavior so much on the left. Maddow has a book out right now, Drift, and in it she makes arguments that contradict the lefts, Rupert Murdock said he found the book a "decent read." I don't see anyone offering t-shirts with her photo and the word "traitor" on it.

MSNBC is not that liberal. It's the same news station that fired Phil Donahue in the lead up to the invasion of Iraq in 2003 for expressing anti-war views. There is no real major news station that is liberal. If you want "liberal" news you need to watch Democracy Now, an independent news station that relies on donations from viewers (not giant corporations)....which basically exists because the regular news media do such a poor job of covering the issues.

I can give you a bunch of reasons why the media is not liberal...but basically it comes down to one thing: Conservative media created the term and it is said so frequently that people believe it to be true. That's really it. In reality, major content analyses that have been done on news media content find no such liberal bias.

[Tully Mars 63]

MSNBC fired Phil nearly 10 yrs ago. Since then they've changed a lot. Today he'd probably have an hour show in prime time between Lawrence O'Donnell and ED Schultz. You're welcome to believe their not liberal but I think that's just puts you in the same category as right wingers who believe Fox is not biased.

[RubberKettle]

Really the think progress channel does not slant liberal

[BuddyBear]

MSNBC fired Phil nearly 10 yrs ago. Since then they've changed a lot. Today he'd probably have an hour show in prime time between Lawrence O'Donnell and ED Schultz. You're welcome to believe their not liberal but I think that's just puts you in the same category as right wingers who believe Fox is not biased.

You don't know what liberal is if you think MSNBC is liberal. Liberal compared to Fox, sure, but that is a very low standard. That's like saying I am the tallest midget.

Do you see MSNBC criticizing Israel at all? Do you see MSNBC challenging the financial systems in this country (i.e. capitalism is bad)? Do you see MSNBC focus any attention on Central America and the dictators propped up by US government? Do you see MSNBC challenge the government's account of the 9/11 massacres? And on and on and on.

Watch Democracy Now and see if it is anything like MSNBC. MSNBC is your basic moderate to conservative news station. It just looks very liberal compared to FOX when in reality is not.

[big0mar]

I agree with you D2Bets but the question remains, why did Obama and the democrats refuse to admit that the health care mandate was indeed a tax?

Why not tell the American people the truth and then explain why he was forced into breaking his promise of not raising taxes on Americans with incomes less than $250K/year?

Because they thought they had the ability to impose a penalty under the commerce clause.

[DwightShrute]

....

[rkelly110]

Now that you put it that way Dwight, REPEAL!!! Tell the govt to leave us alone! Let people fend for themselves!
Can't afford health insurance? Die! Fck them! Let's all regress! All hail the corporations and the 1%!

Who do I sound like?

[muldoon]

Now that you put it that way Dwight, REPEAL!!! Tell the govt to leave us alone! Let people fend for themselves!
Can't afford health insurance? Die! Fck them! Let's all regress! All hail the corporations and the 1%!

Who do I sound like?

Jesus?

[DwightShrute]

Now that you put it that way Dwight, REPEAL!!! Tell the govt to leave us alone! Let people fend for themselves!
Can't afford health insurance? Die! Fck them! Let's all regress! All hail the corporations and the 1%!

Who do I sound like?

no idea who? My American friend passed that on to me. It does say a lot though doesn't it?


also, almost 2000 companies have been granted waivers from Obamacare. why? Are supporters just blind to this? Why isn't that cause for alarm for a lot of you? It has to be? If it's so friggen good, then there shouldn't be any waivers right? Where am I wrong?

You guys deserve a better healthcare plan but this one stinks real bad. If the people who made it law exempt themselves from it ... wouldn't it be like going to by a truck from a chevy dealership when the salesman you are dealing with drives a Ford? Worse yet, all the salesman at the Chevy dealership drive Ford's or Dodge truck and they are trying to get you to but a Chevy truck. Wouldn't you be a fool to buy one?

[muldoon]

no idea who? My American friend passed that on to me. It does say a lot though doesn't it?

Considering that some of the benefits are already in place for people, and the "16000 IRS Agents" claim has been widely debunked, yes - it does say a lot...about you.

[DwightShrute]

Considering that some of the benefits are already in place for people, and the "16000 IRS Agents" claim has been widely debunked, yes - it does say a lot...about you.

And the nearly 2000 business that have been given a waiver to opt out of the plan? Congress also? That is fine with you right? Seems legit right? Y

You are the CEO of coca-cola but all you drink is pepsi. How would that work? You think you would be CEO for long? Wait, that's a real business where integrity and image matter. Government work under different principals I forgot.

[DwightShrute]

[Tully Mars 63]

Jesus?

The man standing on your street corner spouting the end of the world is not actually Jesus.

[Tully Mars 63]

And the nearly 2000 business that have been given a waiver to opt out of the plan? Congress also? That is fine with you right? Seems legit right? Y

You are the CEO of coca-cola but all you drink is pepsi. How would that work? You think you would be CEO for long? Wait, that's a real business where integrity and image matter. Government work under different principals I forgot.

Are these actual waivers or just temporary delays that were reported and debunked back in Dec?

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/12/health-care-law-waivers/

[muldoon]

The man standing on your street corner spouting the end of the world is not actually Jesus.

Duly noted. What about the guys over at home depot waiting to be picked up for day labor? Better chance one of them is Jesus?

[muldoon]

Are these actual waivers or just temporary delays that were reported and debunked back in Dec?

You and your crazy facts have no business engaging Dwight. He, in typical right wing AOL fashion, merely forwards on these spams, then when called out, retreats to other talking points.