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it was hard to keep up with the govt lawyer arguing before the SCOTUS... but at one point his whole argument was based on the commerce clause then he switched and wanted to take another different bite out of the apple.Comment -
This is often the case. Much of legal argumentation is a "but if" formulation. As in, this is my argument, but if you don't buy that argument, here's another argument, but if you don't buy that one, here's another argument.
This ultimate issue is that that all the Affordable Care Act needs to be is constitutional under one provision of the powers of the federal government, and not run afoul of some other provision. The states and NFIB are not arguing in this case that the ACA violates any provision of the Constitution directly, and instead argue that Congress does not have the granted power, therefore the Solicitor General can argue for the upholding of the law successfully if the ACA falls under one of the many powers granted to the federal government.
Among these powers are taxing power and the power to regulate interstate commerce. The taxing power didn't get as much press as the interstate commerce clause argument, but it is why you saw the second part.
The idea behind the taxing argument is that the penalty is effectively a tax. Congress has the power to tax, and therefore it is a proper exercise of the taxing power. Its a complicated argument honestly, much more complicated that the compelled commerce argument and healthcare insurance versus healthcare, but as I understand it the argument is basically that its a tax, and that to hold it otherwise is to hold that congress' power to tax is limited by considerations of credit versus penalty which amount to the same thing.
The argument is made that a credit would be acceptable, that is to say those who purchase health insurance are given a tax credit equal to the value of the insurance, and those who do not purchase insurance do not receive this credit. This is the reverse of a tax penalty but has the same net result in so much as with a penalty those who do not purchase pay more taxes, the amount they pay more in taxes is directly the same as if the penalty was a credit and **** versa.Last edited by Shaudius; 06-26-12, 01:01 AM.Comment -
You are aware that the mandate was originally a Republican idea right? The same idea they all now hate for one reason and one reason only and that is to embarrass Obama like it was his idea. So when u talk about reaching out you have to have people on the other side who will reach with you. Obama has been cocked blocked every time he reached out unless it is about continuing wars and keeping in tow country defict killing tax breaks during war time which haven't created one job for this country. Those wonderful Republican ideas. Tax breaks with no way to pay for them then call those deficit spending by Obama. Hypocrits at the highest level.Comment -
shows how worthless the education in this country is when you have people who actually think this reform was a good ideaComment -
If you really believe that you can make a 25% profit betting on it on intrade:
I can't believe that on this site full of gamblers I was the only one to check intrade on this issue. There's a 75% chance the individual mandate will be found unconstitutional according to the intrade market.
BTW, does anyone think that people who work with the supreme court or have inside knowledge of this issue are trading on intrade and significantly affecting the price either way?
Hypothetically people who work in the supreme court could know the decision already and thus this would truly be a LOCK for them. IMHO it would actually be foolhardy not to take advantage of that here even if you had to do it through another party, if you have inside info it's an absolute lock.Last edited by cleaveland; 06-26-12, 09:24 AM.Comment -
RE: Shaudis:
Perhaps.
But that still doesn't address the constitutionality of whether congress can force you to enter a market that you are not currently in. That is unconstitutional.Comment -
Ask people in Canada how they like their system. Maybe try France, the Netherlands, or Germany. Ask all those people if they rather have our shitty for profit rip off healthcare system or theirs. Let me guess u are one of those jackass who believes we have the best health care in the world
It is June and i am already close to ten grand into my healthcare cost. Wonderful system u would think with all my ailments they would be cured with that price. Oh i forget u are a union worker so they gave u benefits. The same union u always trash but seem to love to use the benefits. fukin dope.
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No the Republican party destroyed it and it became this watered down piece of crap. Just like every bill that could help the middle class. Oh and a handful of blue dog democrats help kill it also. Like Ralph Nadar said. "There was 2000 lobbyist fighting against the public option and no lobbyist fighting for it.Comment -
You two are ill informed ... It was our Dear Leader who made it what it (ObamaCare) is...
Obama gives powerful drug lobby a seat at healthcare table
Obama to Single Payer Advocates: Drop Dead
The White House deal with Big Pharma undermines democracy
Internal Memo Confirms Big Giveaways In White House Deal With Big Pharma
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/13/internal-memo-confirms-bi_n_258285.html
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03052010/watch3.html
And a revealing video/interview by Bill Moyers ^^
.Last edited by Sam Odom; 06-27-12, 11:02 AM.Comment -
Sorry, Sam - I was heavy into this crap when it was going on. There were 4 sides going into this. Obama sold his soul, the bill came out much more republican than any democrat wanted.
At the time, I thought Obama lost the next bid right then and there. Thinking no way possible he can win this when he disappointed his base so thoroughly. Democrats were not happy about the end product. Sure, to many people it was a "step" in the right direction, but as you have alluded to, and my initial reaction upon reading the cliffnotes - this was nothing but a presidential blowjob of big pharma.
BTW, check out Big Pharma's contribution to the Presidents campaign when all is said and done.Comment -
Ask people in Canada how they like their system. Maybe try France, the Netherlands, or Germany. Ask all those people if they rather have our shitty for profit rip off healthcare system or theirs. Let me guess u are one of those jackass who believes we have the best health care in the world It is June and i am already close to ten grand into my healthcare cost. Wonderful system u would think with all my ailments they would be cured with that price. Oh i forget u are a union worker so they gave u benefits. The same union u always trash but seem to love to use the benefits. fukin dope.
you just proved my point about our shitty education, this country can not produce critical thinkers anymore
the fact people still tout canada's system is just embarrassing.Comment -
Ask people in Canada how they like their system. Maybe try France, the Netherlands, or Germany. Ask all those people if they rather have our shitty for profit rip off healthcare system or theirs. Let me guess u are one of those jackass who believes we have the best health care in the world It is June and i am already close to ten grand into my healthcare cost. Wonderful system u would think with all my ailments they would be cured with that price. Oh i forget u are a union worker so they gave u benefits. The same union u always trash but seem to love to use the benefits. fukin dope.
let me know when you find em
you clownComment -
About the "commerce clause" debate in here
SCOTUS ruled ObamaCare (Mandate) was not legal (or covered) under the commerce clause - they therefore said the mandate was a tax making it allowable under congresses' purviewComment -
What u want me to do Sammy sit here for three hours breaking down all ur right wing talking points? I said the mandate was a Republican idea at first. Obama caved to everything so im not applauding him. At first he wanted single payer but when u have some of the best paid lobbyist in the word, things change. I don't know if this verdict has been made yet cause i haven't been to close to this but im starting to think the mandate will pass because in my mind this helps out the bottom line of the health insurance companies. Profit is the bottom line, of the now profit before anything, supreme court.You two are ill informed ... It was our Dear Leader who made it what it (ObamaCare) is...
Obama gives powerful drug lobby a seat at healthcare table
Obama to Single Payer Advocates: Drop Dead
The White House deal with Big Pharma undermines democracy
Internal Memo Confirms Big Giveaways In White House Deal With Big Pharma
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/13/internal-memo-confirms-bi_n_258285.html
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03052010/watch3.html
And a revealing video/interview by Bill Moyers ^^
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Wow!
How about it, Sam. Do you accept it?Comment
