1. #71
    sharpcat
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGambler View Post
    So I can bet $14K at +100 on Pinnacle or $47K at +102 on MB? And that helps your argument how?
    How much can you get down on the Raptors @ Bulls game tomorrow right now?

    I never said I disliked MB and I am not sure why you choose to insult me over the issue, all I said is that MB is nice but it is not in any way the greatest thing out there.

  2. #72
    Fishhead
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    HALFTIMES at MB are the nuts!!

  3. #73
    Statman
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    In terms of ease of funding via E-wallet methods for Canadian players on Matchbook, I've used I N S T A D E B I T. Cost of sending/receiving is free. Never had any problems with Matchbook in this regard.

  4. #74
    KGambler
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpcat View Post
    How much can you get down on the Raptors @ Bulls game tomorrow right now?
    I would say it depends on what kind of odds you want. If you want to do slighly worse than Pinnacle, then you could probably get a few thousand down tonight. Not right now, but tonight. You would have to place the offer yourself.

    If you want to beat Pinnacle, you would have to put up a fair offer, then watch the Pinny lines like a hawk for any sudden moves. So that's basically out of the question.

    I got down a $1K bet on Miami Ohio today (minor bowl game). It wasn't hard. I just put up an offer of Middle Tenn St ML -106 and someone accepted. So I got a little better than +106 (get the 0.2% extra) while it was +102 on Pinny. There weren't any good offers. Look at that market - looks dead. I put up my own offer and got matched.

    This week I have gotten a $2K NHL puck line matched, $4K on an NBA side, $2800 on an NBA 2H line... ALL better than Pinnacle prices and all by making my own offers. You can make fair offers and get them accepted. Admittedly, you must be at your computer monitoring the Pinny line, or it might move and you will quickly get filled at a bad price. But you can get down on sports where the liquidity is not great, but is not nearly as bad as people claim. And for the sports with good liquidity, you have to be a moron to be betting those at Pinny but not MB, let alone a non-discount book.

    Listen, many people don't even have access to Pinnacle. They use Bodog or thegreek to bet NFL, NCAAF, NBA sides... Why????????????????

  5. #75
    Sunde91
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    Didn't read thread, posting for my points for today, and going to say what 50 other people have said, but here we go:

    1) Hard to get funded there (no **, for example).
    2) Aren't they a little shaky financially?
    3) Poor software and options (it seems).
    4) Please explain this whole "offer" thing. They just have a set amount of money that can be bet on each line for each game, and once it runs out, no more bets for that line?

  6. #76
    rm18
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    I hate offering you put up and forget, or something suddenly comes and and parasites steal your money. I offer a live bet and guys steal my money after the game is literally over

  7. #77
    KGambler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunde91 View Post
    Didn't read thread, posting for my points for today, and going to say what 50 other people have said, but here we go:

    1) Hard to get funded there (no **, for example).
    2) Aren't they a little shaky financially?
    3) Poor software and options (it seems).
    4) Please explain this whole "offer" thing. They just have a set amount of money that can be bet on each line for each game, and once it runs out, no more bets for that line?
    Matchbook used to charge only the winner of the bet a fixed %. Then they went and changed their system, thinking it would create more liquidity. Actually, it has hurt liquidity. It also confuses the hell out of people.

    From their website (and then I will explain it):

    How It Works
    The new system is based on bet size, regardless of whether your trade wins or loses. If you accept an offer, the fee is 1.0%. If you post an offer that is accepted, not only is there no fee, but Matchbook will pay you 0.2%. As demonstrated lately on many financial exchanges, liquidity explodes when people are paid to make offers.
    How We Calculate the Rate
    Commission rates of 1.0% or -0.2% will be applied to the lesser of your "bet" or "to win" amount. So regardless of whether you bet $1,000 to win $5,000, or $5,000 to win $1,000, your bet size is treated as only $1,000. In both cases, you pay $10 in commissions if you accept an offer, or you are paid $2 if your offer is accepted.
    Live Trading Rates
    In response to client feedback, Matchbook has reduced live rates to 0.5% accept side, -0.2% offer side. Our current goal is to encourage more live market-making, which we hope outweighs any cost increases to accept-side-only, multi-team traders.
    Pushed Markets and Self-Matches
    No commission at all is charged for pushed markets. There is also no charge for any trades that you accidentally match against yourself.


    OK, let's take a current Pinny line.

    Arkansas +3.5 -117
    Ohio State -3.5 +106

    I look on Matchbook and see the following:

    Arkansas +3.5 -114 $640 -117 $8 -118 $743 -119 $179
    Ohio State -3.5 +113 $328 +110 $1125 +104 $192

    Those are the offers which are available right now. So I can accept Ohio State -3.5 +113 for anywhere from 1 cent (I think, I don't bet pennies) to $328. And if I wanted to, I could accept Ohio State -3.5 +110 for up to $1125 as well.

    So what line would I really be getting? Well, because I am the one ACCEPTING an offer, I would be charged a 1% commission regardless of whether I won or lost the bet. The commission is charged on the LESSER of the "risk" or "to win amounts".

    So let's say I take Ohio State +113 for $100. I would be risking $100 to win $113. But then I have to pay the 1% commission. The commision would get charged on the lesser of $100 or $113. In this case, I am getting + juice so the risk is the lesser amount. The commission for my bet is 1% of $100, or $1. So I am really risking $101 ($100 + $1 commission) to win $112 ($113 win - $1 commision). So that works out to an actual vig of +110.89.

    So I got Ohio State +3.5 +110.89 for $100. Risking $101 to win $112...

    The +111 I got (tired of decimals) is much better than the +106 available on Pinnacle.

    That's great, but what if you wanted Arkansas +3.5? You could accept the +3.5 -114 offer for $100. In this case, you would be risking $114 to win $100 BEFORE the commision. You take the 1% fee from the lesser amount. Again, the lesser amount is $100 and so the fee is $1. So you are really risking $115 to win $99. So you would actually be getting Arkansas +3.5 -116.16.

    Hey, that particular line barely beats Pinnacle! So let's say I don't want to accept that offer then. Instead I want to make my own offer. I enter in a request for Arkansas +3.5 -113 for $100. What happens is this now shows up as an offer for Ohio State -3.5 +113 (mirror image of your bet). In other words, the site displays the OTHER side of the bet. When you bet Arkansas +3.5 -113 with a bookie, the bookie is getting Ohio State -3.5 +113. That's what would be happening here (before commissions). So when we see Ohio State -3.5 +113 $328, that means there are one or more persons requesting ARKANSAS +3.5 -113 and the amounts of the offers add up to $370.64 (because $328 * 1.13 = $370.64). So the would-be Arkansas -113 backers are looking to wager a total of $370.64 to win $328. You are going to be joining them. Others see it as an offer of Ohio State -3.5 +113 for a max of $328. They can match as little or as much of that as they want.

    So lets say I put in a request of Arkansas +3.5 -113, risking $113 to win $100... The Ohio State line would now say Ohio State -3.5 -113 $428 ($328 + $100 = $428 total now available). You are in line behind the people who put the same offer in front of you. They will get filled before you do if someone accepts for a partial amount.

    Let's say someone comes along who wants Ohio State -3.5 +113 for $1,000. He clicks on the Ohio State -3.5 +113 offers (or enters it manually) and then types in "1000" in the bet field. This will accept all of the available offers at +113 (he does not know or care how many different people's offers he is matching). And the amount left over now pops up as an available offer of Arkansas +3.5 -113.

    What would be your actual vig when he accepts your offer? MB would pay you 0.2% for the accepted offer. So the fee is negative -0.2%. So you would get 20 cents from MB for making an offer which was accepted (0.2% of $100). So you would be risking $99.80 to win $113.20. So your vig would be +113.43 (every little bit helps ).

    It's not nearly as complicated as it sounds.


    Let's look at an easy example. Pinny has this:

    SAS -5.5 -105
    NYK +5.5 -105

    I want the Spurs -5.5. I look and see this on MB:

    Spurs -5.5 +100 $100

    Great! Someone wanted the Knicks at +5.5 and has put up a "vig free" offer. OK, actually I will have to pay a small vig due to the 1% commission on accepted wagers. I accept his $100 offer. I will be charged a $1 commission fee regardless of whether the bet wins or loses. If the Spurs cover, I win $99. If they lose, I lose $101. My vig is actually -102.02. OK, I still beat the Pinny line, so I am happy.

    Let's say I am the typical penny pinching nit who complains they can never get filled on Matchbook though... I don't want to pay commission. Instead I can make an offer. I request Spurs -5.5 +101 and this shows up as NYK +5.5 -101, bumping right up against the other offer. There is no room for anyone to get in between us. We are both first in line for our respective offers. It would look like this:

    Spurs -5.5 +100 $100
    NYK +5.5 -101 $101

    We are trying to risk $100 to win $101, which is why there is $101 available for someone to accept on the other side (they can risk up to $101). So if someone comes along and accepts our bet, we get paid 0.2% of the LESSER of the "to win" or "risk" amount. Again, $100 is the lesser amount. So we get 20 cents More importantly, we don't pay the 1% commission. We are now risking $99.80 to win $101.20. Our vig would be +101.40.

    You can probably see why liquidity has declined. Their is something about human nature where nobody wants to be on the ACCEPT side. They want to be the one who OFFERED the accepted bet. It doesn't matter that the guy in our example could have instantly placed a bet of -102.02, 3 points better than Pinny... The nit wants it all. He wants to get down his bet AND he wants the other guy to pay the juice. So he puts in the request of Spurs +101 to bump up against the +100 offer.

    Then one of several things happens...

    1. His offer gets filled. He is happy.

    2. His offer never gets filled and he is mad that he didn't get his bet in. He could have had it at -102, but he still comes to SBR to complain about MB's lack of liquidity.

    3. The Pinny line moves to Spurs -5.5 -110, NYK +5.5 +100. Now no one is going to touch his bet. Only a request in the are of -5.5 -105 will be competitive. You gotta offer the Knicks backers much better than -101 now. The asshole then comes to SBR to cry about how there is no liquidity on MB.

    4. While the nit is away from his computer, the line moves to Spurs -5.5 +103, NYK -113. An even larger, predatory nit now sees his chance to snap up a bet which is very nearly arbable on Pinny... So the predatory nit snaps up the offer of Knicks +5.5 -101. The little nit still gets Spurs -5.5 +101.40. But Pinny has +103! Waaaaaa! The little nit now runs crying to SBR to complain about how his offers only get filled when the line moves on Pinny.

    If you leave up offers and the Pinny line moves against you, your offers WILL get snapped up. There are supposed to be bots active looking for this kind of opportunity, and people will claim stale lines get snapped up within seconds. That is a lie though. I see stale lines all of the time. Many times I get to snap them up myself. It is usually a matter of minutes.

    The new commission structure is ruining MB. It is too complicated for recreational bettors. Human nature means people will not accept offers because they want the other guy to get stuck with the commission. People can not leave up offers because they don't want their stale offers to get snapped up by predatory nits. Although they wind up with a better vig then they would have gotten if they just placed the bet at the time they wanted it, it only happens when the movement of the Pinny line indicates that they are on the wrong side. They know they can't win money if the only bets of theirs that get accepted are ones where the other side is arbable on Pinny.

    All Matchbook needs to do is go back to the original, simple system... Only charge a commission on the player who wins the bet. Then people will snap up Spurs -5.5 +100 without a second thought. MB is a terribly run book though, and they are completely ******* clueless over there. They probably don't even understand why people are not accepting offers, and why those same nits are scared shitless to actually make an offer (fear of the line moving on Pinny).

    Hope this helps anyone who is confused...

  8. #78
    KGambler
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm18 View Post
    I hate offering you put up and forget, or something suddenly comes and and parasites steal your money. I offer a live bet and guys steal my money after the game is literally over
    Wow, you must have been offering up HORRIFIC odds. I mean, they didn't snap it up with 1 minute left in the game? Or 20 seconds? They had to wait until after the game was literally over??? What kind of horrible odds were you offering?

    Yes, that will happen to you if you leave bets open. You have to be careful.

    And MB is not good about cracking down on people who do angle shooting like offering a live bet when the game is over.

    Once I wanted to bet on a baseball team that was losing by a couple of runs with about 2 innings left. I thought I took them at +2200. I actually bet them at -2200. I immediately emailed Matchbook to
    complain and to record that I wanted the bet cancelled. The key is that there is no legitimate reason for someone to request +2200 odds on a team that is 95% to win! They were aware of the fact that customers make what they call "malicious offers" in the live betting markets, but they refused to do anything about it.

    I don't use the live betting anymore. Again, they don't know a god damn thing about running an exchange. They are the only game in town for US gamblers though.

  9. #79
    OTL
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    For me it's the poor NHL liquidity, difficulty to deposit and withdraw, and the fees charged to move your money in and out. But the biggest thing keeping me away are the questions raised about their financial health and ownership stability. If I don't know for a fact that my money is going to be 100% safe, I'm not going to deposit, plain and simple.

  10. #80
    KGambler
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    Quote Originally Posted by OTL View Post
    For me it's the poor NHL liquidity, difficulty to deposit and withdraw, and the fees charged to move your money in and out. But the biggest thing keeping me away are the questions raised about their financial health and ownership stability. If I don't know for a fact that my money is going to be 100% safe, I'm not going to deposit, plain and simple.
    1. NHL liquidity is not good. It is not nearly as bad as some people make it out to be though. If you want to bet $1K on a total, you can usually get filled at a price which is equivalent to the Pinny line (which is only a 4 cent line, i.e. -104/-104). If you are looking to get a vig free bet, you usually have to get lucky and see a standing offer. I sometimes arb NHL lines (totals mostly), so I know there is some liquidity. I often see good very good offers, but usually those are for small amounts ($200 or less).

    I have been surprised at how many of my offers actually get snapped up though. I occasionally book some bets, and some are NHL totals. If the line is -104/-104 on Pinny, I'll throw up offers where I am requesting -102 (offering +102 on the other side). Those usually get filled, and I am paying less than I would on Pinny.

    Does the liquidity compare to sports like MLB or NFL? Not even close. And you have to make offers, so you have to constantly watch the Pinny lines like a hawk if you are trying to beat those lines.

    Have you tried this year? Maybe liquidity has improved for NHL. Maybe not. This is the first year I have really bet it.

    2. The fees to move money in doesn't bother me. They are an exchange, so they can't be expected to just outright cover your costs they way a normal book would. Instead they give you commission credits. I always use all of my commission credits, so it's a wash for me. I don't lose any money on fees. In fact, I make money because they don't bother to ask you how much your particular bank charged you. I did a wire and got more commission credits than my bank charged me. I do electronic checks and my bank charges me nothing. Strangely, they automatically give me commission credits for depositing via electronic check. I guess they figure it is cheaper to just give a standard refund rather than go through requests one at a time.

    For withdrawals, the max check is $3K and it costs $9. Considering how much you save in vig, this is nothing. Again, they can't be expected to cover costs the same way a dime line book will. Dime line books (-110/-110) can give bonuses and cover fees because they are charging huge vig. Every $200 bet you make is like paying for a MB check.

    3. If you are worried about their stability, then definitely don't deposit. I can understand that. They are pretty badly run, and I often wonder how they are profitable given the small commission they charge.

  11. #81
    rm18
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGambler View Post
    Wow, you must have been offering up HORRIFIC odds. I mean, they didn't snap it up with 1 minute left in the game? Or 20 seconds? They had to wait until after the game was literally over??? What kind of horrible odds were you offering?

    Yes, that will happen to you if you leave bets open. You have to be careful.

    And MB is not good about cracking down on people who do angle shooting like offering a live bet when the game is over.

    Once I wanted to bet on a baseball team that was losing by a couple of runs with about 2 innings left. I thought I took them at +2200. I actually bet them at -2200. I immediately emailed Matchbook to
    complain and to record that I wanted the bet cancelled. The key is that there is no legitimate reason for someone to request +2200 odds on a team that is 95% to win! They were aware of the fact that customers make what they call "malicious offers" in the live betting markets, but they refused to do anything about it.

    I don't use the live betting anymore. Again, they don't know a god damn thing about running an exchange. They are the only game in town for US gamblers though.

    I was trying to bet +10000 that the defense would score a TD on the last play fo the game then I forgot about it before

  12. #82
    jjgold
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    Let me some this up

    If you bet NFL it is a must
    MLB a must

    NBA average

    The rest of the sports for exchange purposes you play at Betfair only, there is no one even close

  13. #83
    nli07
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    Just wanted to say something about the hardship of moving money in/out for Matchbook.

    I am not from the USA so its a bit different for me but I find Book to Book transfers TO Matchbook is better than depositing with them directly because they don't take that 3.5% in commission away from you in the forms of commission credits. I am sure most of you have a combination of 5Dimes, BetJam, Greek, Pinny, etc. So why not do that?

  14. #84
    Fishhead
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    Quote Originally Posted by nli07 View Post
    Just wanted to say something about the hardship of moving money in/out for Matchbook.

    I am not from the USA so its a bit different for me but I find Book to Book transfers TO Matchbook is better than depositing with them directly because they don't take that 3.5% in commission away from you in the forms of commission credits. I am sure most of you have a combination of 5Dimes, BetJam, Greek, Pinny, etc. So why not do that?

    ........add bookmaker to the above list.

    Agree, fast and efficient.

  15. #85
    WileOut
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    Quote Originally Posted by maersksealand View Post
    they should explain better how it works...many people including me still don't know how that site is working...I'm sure is not hard but they are lacking in explaining how it works step by step

    maybe somebody here should make a 2 minutes video explaining what's the deal...instead making videos about tasting chocolate, beer or other dump shiat.
    I'm sorry but if a person cannot figure out how things work at matchbook just by tinkering around a little, maybe even reading the FAQ and stuff, I cannot imagine how you could even learn how to work at Burger King because working the cash register at BK has to be 10 times more complicated than learning how to navigate and bet at matchbook. It is so easy I just cannot grasp these posts people make about how they don't understand how it works.

    The only reason I don't play there recently is the questions regarding their financial situation. I don't want even a fraction of my bankroll tied up at a place that is the least bit shaky.
    Last edited by WileOut; 01-04-11 at 10:35 AM.

  16. #86
    Fishhead
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    Quote Originally Posted by wileout View Post
    i'm sorry but if a person cannot figure out how things work at matchbook just by tinkering around a little, maybe even reading the faq and stuff, i cannot imagine how you could even learn how to work at burger king because working the cash register at bk has to be 10 times more complicated than learning how to navigate and bet at matchbook. It is so easy i just cannot grasp these posts people make about how they don't understand how it works.

    spot on!

  17. #87
    magynuck
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    Have a limited use for matchbook. If it were my main out I would get into a different line of work.

  18. #88
    big0mar
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    Only about 20% of my action goes through Matchbook

    But my margins are about 3-4% higher

    UNREAL how many people do not take advantage of that place

    I don't care if its not your main book, the benefits from Matchbook should be utilized by everyone

  19. #89
    Fishhead
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mar View Post
    Only about 20% of my action goes through Matchbook

    But my margins are about 3-4% higher

    UNREAL how many people do not take advantage of that place

    I don't care if its not your main book, the benefits from Matchbook should be utilized by everyone

    Not a soul here should be without Matchbook...........

  20. #90
    philswin
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    I do not place a bet anywhere without checking the liquidity and price at Matchbook.

  21. #91
    jjgold
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    Most bettors in USA are traditional bettors therefore they will not play at a place like matchbook and it will never change.

  22. #92
    Fishhead
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    Quote Originally Posted by philswin View Post
    I do not place a bet anywhere without checking the liquidity and price at Matchbook.

    +1


    Mods, STICKY this thread!

  23. #93
    bettilimbroke999
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    Because most ppl use a lighter instead of matchbook

  24. #94
    KGambler
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjgold View Post
    Let me some this up

    If you bet NFL it is a must
    MLB a must

    NBA average

    The rest of the sports for exchange purposes you play at Betfair only, there is no one even close
    I live in the US. Can you help me to get a BetFair account? I would really like to play there.

    Yeah, didn't think so.

  25. #95
    Fishhead
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGambler View Post
    I live in the US. Can you help me to get a BetFair account? I would really like to play there.

    Yeah, didn't think so.

    U.S. players can play at BetFair if they work at it...............JJGold plays at BetFair.

    However, most do not want to go to the extreme trouble of playing there when MB is easily available.

  26. #96
    KGambler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishhead View Post
    +1


    Mods, STICKY this thread!
    Fishhead, can you read the last few paragraphs of post #77 and tell me what you think? Do you agree with me that the new commission structure not only causes confusion for recreational gamblers, but also leads to LESS liquidity?

    It seems to me people are loathe to accept offers because they don't want to be the one to pay the commission. So they make a counter offer 1 cent away... but eventually they become afraid to make offers as this strategy fails (other side refuses to accept offer as well) and the Pinny line moves screw them over.

    Do you agree they need to go back to "only winner pays commission" ASAP? This new commission structure has really hurt liquidity IMO.
    Last edited by KGambler; 01-04-11 at 02:30 PM.

  27. #97
    d2bets
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    Quote Originally Posted by philswin View Post
    I do not place a bet anywhere without checking the liquidity and price at Matchbook.
    This, and Pinnacle, even if you can't play there.

  28. #98
    d2bets
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGambler View Post
    Fishhead, can you read the last few paragraphs of post #77 and tell me what you think? Do you agree with me that the new commission structure not only causes confusion for recreational gamblers, but also leads to LESS liquidity?

    It seems to me people are loathe to accept offers because they don't want to be the one to pay the commission. So they make a counter offer 1 cent away... but eventually they become afraid to make offers as this strategy fails (other side refuses to accept offer as well) and the Pinny line moves screw them over.

    Do you agree they need to go back to "only winner pays commission" ASAP? This new commission structure had really hurt liquidity IMO.
    Tough call. I see your point, but on the other hand they want to encourage offers making by giving a benefit to that. Otherwise why place an offer, just take offers, but there will be none to take. Works fine if you have enough market makers but I think they lost market makers so they want to make their players the market makers. Maybe they could tighten it up and then also do only winners pay. How about 0 commission for market making and 1% for market taking winners only. Might not be enough revenue.

  29. #99
    big0mar
    SINGLE-DECK BLACKJACK
    big0mar's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 01-09-09
    Posts: 3,374
    Betpoints: 1426

    Quote Originally Posted by KGambler View Post
    I live in the US. Can you help me to get a BetFair account? I would really like to play there. Yeah, didn't think so.
    Many in the US with BetFair accounts. You need to be creative though and stop asking people to help you

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