1. #1
    DukeJohn
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    Monitoring a tout service

    I am responding to this post:
    http://www.sportsbookreview.com/forum/players-ta...com-scams.html
    I didn't necessarily agree with the title, so I started a new post.

    Okay, well I guess I will be the guinea pig and grab about $10,000 and settle this, unless the prognosticator I choose does so bad so quickly I lose it all

    According to Alex Meyers' record currently he went 12-22 last week, a wonderful 35.29% and 76-72 in the last thirty days. Well, let's just jump on him and see if he will continue this downward spiral or pull it out. I won't post his picks, as I believe that is a violation, but I will post if anything is amiss and I already have an issue with them after monitoring for only three days. We shall see how it unfolds...

    Current issues:

    Issue #1:
    On Jan 12th one of Alex's picks was Orlando Magic @ Utah Jazz -6.5 Well, that was a loser, it was close, but it still lost. However, if you check his stats this loss is not recorded. He is doing so bad anyway, why not just add the loss So I emailed them at info@precisionpicks.com asking why this loss is not recorded. I received MAILER-DAEMON@mail.bis.na.blackberry.com

    Now I have emailed handicappingpolice (HP) in the past and they were quick to respond and answered my questions about a year or so ago. So, I sent an email to them this morning (Sunday) and am awaiting a response. Now it could be that the game ended so late that they just didn't post it and will later today or something, we shall see...

    Issue #2:
    This just happened this morning two of the picks for Jan 13th had fantasy lines. I checked all the lines listed on http://www.sbrodds.com/ for these picks and checked the line moves and never did the lines move into their picks So I emailed HP again about this and see what they have to say. If I was to guess, I would surmise they use Pinnacle and at the time of the picks their were no lines. If that is true (and I am just guessing here) then it would certainly be harder to profit as you would be buying points to get the lines they picked.

    Jan 11th
    Alex says he went 1-4, however, by the time which is early morning, I checked his picks the lines had moved and actually he went 1-3-1 for me

    Jan 12th
    3-4 see issue #1

    Well, never-mind about issue #1... I have already received a response and they adjusted the record. I received this response:
    Hello John,

    Thank you for the email and we are aware of the Orlando/Utah not appearing on our record screen. The game should be available shortly as it was disguised in our grading log and was never finalized.

    Good luck today,
    I received this from info@precisionpicks.com, so either my email did go through or HP got a hold of them or something. Anyway, that is where I stand so far.

    John

    Current Record:
    4-7-1
    Last edited by DukeJohn; 01-17-08 at 08:15 AM.

  2. #2
    Stumpage
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    Interesting stuff, Duke...Pretty humorous email response you received, as well. I often wish some sportbooks would disguise some of my losses in their grading log, permanently.

    SBR Founder Join Date: 9/21/2005


  3. #3
    DukeJohn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumpage View Post
    I often wish some sportbooks would disguise some of my losses in their grading log, permanently.
    lol.. That would be nice

    Update on Issue #2:

    I went ahead and emailed PP directly even though I was receiving that email daemon and they responded rather quickly. So at least their customer service has quick response and this is Sunday after all. This was their response:

    Hello John,

    Thank you and we are looking into this line issue.

    Thanks,

    Member Services
    www.precisionpicks.com
    Well, maybe they will give more info later...

  4. #4
    curious
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    but I will post if anything is amiss
    What are you expecting to find that is "amiss"? A handicapper posts picks, the picks win or they lose. I don't get what you are trying to prove.

  5. #5
    Jamie_UK
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    Quote Originally Posted by curious View Post
    What are you expecting to find that is "amiss"? A handicapper posts picks, the picks win or they lose. I don't get what you are trying to prove.
    They often tip both sides under different names to different groups.

  6. #6
    DukeJohn
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    Quote Originally Posted by curious View Post
    What are you expecting to find that is "amiss"? A handicapper posts picks, the picks win or they lose. I don't get what you are trying to prove.
    Curious, I started the thread as a response to the thread posted at the beginning. To see if I could answer the questions they had. To monitor the service and see if they are true or not. I will monitor their picks for a year or until my $10,000 is gone, whichever comes first.

    Furthermore, there is already a problem with the lines they posted. So, just because a service says IE: Oklahoma +20 and the best line is +5, well then sure they may win the pick, but since there was never a line like that, how can it be a true pick? Anyway, I will list any problems I have with them as there are many peeps who do follow the HP site as shown in the other thread.
    Last edited by DukeJohn; 01-13-08 at 12:50 PM.

  7. #7
    curious
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeJohn View Post
    Curious, I started the thread as a response to the thread posted at the beginning. To see if I could answer the questions they had. To monitor the service and see if they are true or not. I will monitor their picks for a year or until my $10,000 is gone, whichever comes first.
    I see. By monitor you just meant see what happens if you follow them. Good luck!

  8. #8
    DukeJohn
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    I received another email from PP about issue #2 the lines:

    Hi John

    All of our lines are taken from a major online sportsbook (Bodog, BetUS, Pinnacle) or the LVSC. We do not manipulate the lines or pick the most favorable lines but we do post our games much earlier than most services so they do change from time to time. If you ever have a doubt about a line we post with a pick, please email us that day and we will either let you know the book we found the line or correct a possible feed error by updating the spread on the pick. Feed errors can happen so we appreciate your emails alerting us of any lines that do not seem correct. In regards to the bounced email you are receiving, we are not familiar with that email or individual and are looking into it now.

    Thanks again for your email and patronage.

    Member Services
    www.precisionpicks.com
    Since the games I had questions on started already, they were:
    NBA
    Chicago Bulls @ Atlanta Hawks U189
    NCAAB:
    Louisville @ Rutgers
    Louisville -11.5

    Anyone see these lines today? Sunday January 13...

  9. #9
    jjgold
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    all touts give both sides to games, they use multiple companies and names

    All scammers

    SBR
    Sharp
    Bettor

    $$$$$

    Bald
    & Proud
    of Myself -jjgold

    SBR Founder Join Date: 7/20/2005


  10. #10
    2Pac
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    Is there anything you can do if they advertise using false information?

  11. #11
    DukeJohn
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2Pac View Post
    Is there anything you can do if they advertise using false information?
    2Pac, I didn't really find too much about reporting these services, however there should be some sort of legal issue if the service was to advertise in a publication of some sort. The only thing I really found was from 1998 (Quote Below) and apparently there was an HBO Sports episode about sport touts, I believe in 1995, not sure on that date.

    The following quote is taken from:
    http://www.ncaa.org/gambling/19981110_testimony.html

    Sports Touts.

    Browse through the USA Today sports section and you will find advertisements for sports handicappers, commonly referred to as sports touts. In most cases, the ads ask consumers to call a 1-800 or 1-900 telephone number and pay to listen to a recording of the tout's picks of sports teams that will beat the published point spread. While there is nothing illegal about this operation, the information provided is, in most cases, used by consumers to place illegal sports bets.


    Furthermore, there does not appear to be any regulation of these businesses. Recently, HBO Real Sports produced a segment which investigated the legitimacy of several sports tout operations.32 The show revealed an industry plagued by false and fraudulent claims. Ironically, law enforcement is not likely to hear complaints from consumers who are duped by sports tout services. It is doubtful that a person who relied on the false claims of a tout to place illegal sports bets would contact law enforcement officials to register a complaint.

  12. #12
    DukeJohn
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    Yesterday (Sunday)
    Alex Meyers went 1-3-1 and the site posted it correctly, however I might add you would have had to buy points on the win and the push as I never found lines that ever moved into the ones they posted.

    Current Record since start:
    5-10-2

  13. #13
    curious
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeJohn View Post
    Yesterday (Sunday)
    Alex Meyers went 1-3-1 and the site posted it correctly, however I might add you would have had to buy points on the win and the push as I never found lines that ever moved into the ones they posted.

    Current Record since start:
    5-10-2
    Lots of services tell you to buy points as part of the pick. I know personally in the NFL I always buy points if the spread is on or within 1 1/2 points of the danger numbers like 3, 7, or 10. Could this be what you are seeing?

  14. #14
    DukeJohn
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    Quote Originally Posted by curious View Post
    Lots of services tell you to buy points as part of the pick. I know personally in the NFL I always buy points if the spread is on or within 1 1/2 points of the danger numbers like 3, 7, or 10. Could this be what you are seeing?
    Ah, I have seen these type of picks on other services but these picks were listed as:

    Chicago Bulls @ Atlanta Hawks
    Pick: Under 189 -110

    Louisville @ Rutgers
    Pick: Louisville -11.5 -110

    So, since the picks were at -110 each, they couldn't have meant to buy points. Even on their results listed on their website:
    1/13/2008 Chicago Bulls @ Atlanta Hawks Under 189 -110 Push
    1/13/2008 Louisville @ Rutgers Louisville -11.5 -110 Win
    In essence this is false, but one could have got the lines buying points, but the overall line would not be -110.

  15. #15
    DukeJohn
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    I received an email from HP about the posted lines. Although they apologized for the delay in responding, it was only 24 hours and I had emailed them yesterday (Sunday). So, I would say good job on their part. In the end I never received where they got the lines from, but then I guess I didn't ask the question of exactly where the line did come from. Well, anyway, I am moving on. Below is the response of HP:

    Thank you for your email and we apologize for the delay in responding. We have monitored Precision Picks since their conception on the internet. It appears that you may be talking about certain line feed issues and releasing incorrect odds? There are many handicapping services that use books that release opening lines under the impression that these lines are subject to change barring public action. Precision Picks and many other services use these lines to release their picks early enough so that their members are able to jump on the best possible odds. We can assure you that these errors were not intentional and were merely opening lines that appeared to have been reconciled within the site. We have had zero strikes against Precision Picks in the past and they are very highly regarded with HP and in the handicapping community. We appreciate your email and extended monitoring help. Please let us know if we are able to assist you in the future.
    May the future bring me money

  16. #16
    DukeJohn
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    Yesterday I went 1-3 following Alex at PP. Crazy, crazy, this would be the time I would start to wonder and get a little scared, as I am sure many would if they were following a tout service with a 32% win rate. There has not been a single winning day since I started following his picks. Of course it has only been four days, but according to Alex's past results he is doing his worst in over two year of posting. Even the month of December was his worst in two years. I really hope he turns it around soon. Come on Alex, get it together man, let's make some money

    Yesterday
    1/14/2008 Washington Wizards @ Boston Celtics Boston Celtics -12.5 -105 Loss
    1/14/2008 Philadelphia 76ers @ San Antonio Spurs Over 187 -107 Loss
    1/14/2008 Los Angeles Lakers @ Seattle SuperSonics Los Angeles Lakers -8 line moved to -7 -105 Loss
    1/14/2008 Oklahoma @ Kansas Kansas -17 line moved to -16.5 +102 Win

    Overall
    6-13-2 (32%)
    Last edited by DukeJohn; 01-15-08 at 08:29 AM.

  17. #17
    accuscoresucks
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    if you like following records fuk the touts.real people do alot better then them touts can ever do.
    here is my .02c go to a pro pickers place with open contests ex. covers.com in their top cappers section they have fellas with 60% win rates just look at their picks,that should give someone a good direction

  18. #18
    DukeJohn
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    Quote Originally Posted by accuscoresucks View Post
    if you like following records fuk the touts.real people do alot better then them touts can ever do.
    here is my .02c go to a pro pickers place with open contests ex. covers.com in their top cappers section they have fellas with 60% win rates just look at their picks,that should give someone a good direction
    Well alrighty then lets give, say kindergartencapper over there a shot. His picks for the day are:

    Tuesday's picks:
    NC St vs. Clemson over 139 - NC State 73, 75, 81, 93 in four road games against Seton Hall, UNC, ECU, and Mich. State....looking for Clemson to put up at least 75 and with Clemson D all we would need is 65. NC STATE's offense should show up this time. South Carolina put up 74 and Charlotte put up 82 on Clemson's D.Line currently at 138 1/2

    Cincy vs ND under 140 - Cincy totals against-VIll-135, Syr.140, STJ 128, Louis 115, Mem 148, Xav123, ILL St. 118, UAB 127.....seems a little high. On the road they score 58 at STJ, 58 Louis, 59 at Xavier, 52 ILL St., 54 UAB......if they score 60 which would be out of character ND has to score 80. ND at home went for 140 against high speed UCONN, 125 WVUHad to buy 2 pnts for this one

    Kentucky vs. Miss St. under 135 1/2 - KY in two away games scored 69 against a fast Houston team and 51 at Indiana...Miss St. last two SEC games 109 against Georgia and 100. This game should play in the 60's....maybe

    WF vs. Maryland over 139 - WF has scored 70 in 9 out of last 10.....Maryland has score 70 in 7 out of last 10. I know these are young and new teams, but the last ten matchups between them have gone over( I didn't look any further than those 10)

    His current record is 109-62, so we shall see... Actually, I can't really afford to follow both at this time if he loses tonight. So, it is all or nothing. Let's see what he gots...

  19. #19
    accuscoresucks
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    i looked for the userkname you mentioned and could find it??
    it seems the page might be temp down mabye

    here is a capper PETERLONG1 hitting 60.87% nba,imlao
    his picks for the day NBA [126-81-4]record
    atlanta -2
    den/atl under 206 gt
    washington -2.5

  20. #20
    DukeJohn
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    Quote Originally Posted by accuscoresucks View Post
    i looked for the userkname you mentioned and could find it??
    it seems the page might be temp down mabye

    here is a capper PETERLONG1 hitting 60.87% nba,imlao
    his picks for the day NBA [126-81-4]record
    atlanta -2
    den/atl under 206 gt
    washington -2.5
    Ah, ic, you were referring to wagerline.com. Kender is posting at covers and not in wagerline. Anyway, it would be nice to follow all three. Peter is easy to follow, since all I have to do is click on his results. Kender is a little harder since he is posting. Of course the tread is geared toward a tout service and I really shouldn't be spreading myself so thin with such a small bankroll. I will continue to monitor these three and post Peter and Kender plays, but only use Alex at PP for the experiment of whether or not I will lose that $10,000 before the end of the year. By the way, Alex's picks cost $20 each.

  21. #21
    Johnny McCoy
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    There are a number of issues I have with touts. I have a group of 10 friends that bet regularly. It's definitely a no-no but we all chipped in $100 each and got a certain tout service for the year. It's a small investment and it's interesting to see how they come up with their tips.

    Some of the other guys in the group spend zero time on doing their own research so they follow the service 100%. I think I would take the touts tips once per week on a Sunday yet half the time I have already made a play on the game he sends through and got better odds!

    I would find that I generally make 0-3 plays per day maximum. Some days I'll find 3 games that look solid to me, others I will find zero. I find it very amusing that this certain tout sends through 5-8 tips per day. Sunday's the guy is usually on fire with 80% where Friday's he's swinging at a whopping 20%.

    His claimed percentage is much higher than what he is swinging at now. The guys who follow him every day have only seen their bankroll decrease.

    I would think the Government would want to regulate this in some form as it is flat out fraudulent to claim 70% when you're actually 40%. Surely the guys on Walls St can't do this so why can the Tout's in Vegas?

  22. #22
    DukeJohn
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    kindergartencapper just added a bunch more, this is getting a little too much in my book, so I am not playing them, but here they are. These will probably be the ones that will win with my luck

    NC STATE +12 1/2 - Public likes Clemson....2 bad games in a row...they are due for a good one, but this is a lot of points. Just heard today that their have been a lot of player problems at NC STATE and they had a sit down meeting to figure it out. Hopefully the new Unified Wolfpack come to play tonight.

    BYU+2 - If they watched any tape of the AF game Saturday, they will know how to beat them. BYU should dominate inside.

    Penn St. +5 - a lot of points for a home dog in conference play. They lost to Minn by 3 but missed 19 FT's
    BC -1- I think Miami is highly overrated. I'm not all that impressed with BC, but homecourt should bring the victory

    That is 7 picks for him today...

  23. #23
    DukeJohn
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    kindergartencapper added the following

    Wash. vs. NY over 92 FH - Wash. road games at 91.7 FH. NY home games at 97.1. NY gives up 50 avg at home in the first half. If Wash. can get that at -2 favs. for the FH than NY should be in the mid 40's at least. Washington will be ready to run after B/B games against Boston. NY has the 20 ppg Defense and the 30th FG% defense.

    GS vs Minn under 110 FH - Totals are for this years halves between these two teams- 99, 107, 116, 93. 3 out of 4 haven't covered that spread so I like my chances.

    PHO vs. LAC under 110 FH - Totals are for this years halves between these two teams- 98, 84, 99, 97, 103, 104. NOT 1 has hit this total yet. 6-0 so far! Hopefully we can make it 7-0 as LAC the worst scoring offense in the NBA(who scores more on the road then at home) takes on the 18th FG% defense.
    Good luck everyone....can't believe i'm taking unders in PHO and GS games...might get my ass burned tonight.

    He said he may add some 2nd half plays, but that is it for me tonight. GL and see ya tomorrow

  24. #24
    Johnny McCoy
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeJohn View Post
    kindergartencapper just added a bunch more, this is getting a little too much in my book, so I am not playing them, but here they are. These will probably be the ones that will win with my luck

    NC STATE +12 1/2 - Public likes Clemson....2 bad games in a row...they are due for a good one, but this is a lot of points. Just heard today that their have been a lot of player problems at NC STATE and they had a sit down meeting to figure it out. Hopefully the new Unified Wolfpack come to play tonight.

    BYU+2 - If they watched any tape of the AF game Saturday, they will know how to beat them. BYU should dominate inside.

    Penn St. +5 - a lot of points for a home dog in conference play. They lost to Minn by 3 but missed 19 FT's
    BC -1- I think Miami is highly overrated. I'm not all that impressed with BC, but homecourt should bring the victory

    That is 7 picks for him today...
    Some Tout's threaten to take legal action if you post their tips on forums.

  25. #25
    DukeJohn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny McCoy View Post
    Some Tout's threaten to take legal action if you post their tips on forums.
    Kender is not part of a tout service, he is just a poster at covers. The only tout service I am following is Alex from Precision Pick. However, I don't think I will follow Kender's picks, he adds too many and it makes it hard to follow and it is getting a little off the topic. If you like his picks, he posts at covers. I am going to stick with only Alex Meyers picks and continue to post his results. I think I started to get too carried away.

  26. #26
    DukeJohn
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    Another losing day for Mr. Meyers. Yesterday was the fifth straight day of loses in a row. The bank roll is quickly diminishing, so this may be a short experiment. Yesterday's picks were reported correctly:

    1/15/2008 Golden State Warriors @ Minnesota Timberwolves Over 210 -112 Had to buy 1/2 pnt Loss
    1/15/2008 Philadelphia 76ers @ Houston Rockets Under 182.5 +102 Got it at U183 Loss
    1/15/2008 North Carolina State @ Clemson Clemson -12 -102 Got it at -11 1/2 Win
    1/15/2008 Cincinnati @ Notre Dame Notre Dame -12.5 -105 Win
    1/15/2008 New Mexico @ TCU New Mexico -3.5 -110 Loss
    1/15/2008 BYU @ UNLV BYU +2.5 -107 Had to buy 1 pnt Loss

    Tuesday record
    2-4
    YTD
    8-17-2 32%

  27. #27
    DukeJohn
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    After 5 straight days of losing Mr. Meyers pulled out a winning day. Hopefully things will be looking up, we shall see.

    Yesterday's result were reported correctly, however I had to buy several points. I did start later in the day and thus the lines had moved.

    1/16/2008 Golden State Warriors @ Indiana Pacers Indiana Pacers -1 Bought 1/2 pnt -110 Win
    1/16/2008 Portland Trail Blazers @ Boston Celtics Over 180.5 +100 Win
    1/16/2008 Atlanta Hawks @ Milwaukee Bucks Milwaukee Bucks -3.5 Got it at -3 -110 Win
    1/16/2008 Duke @ Florida State Florida State +6 Bought 1/2 pnt -105 Loss
    1/16/2008 Purdue @ Iowa Purdue -1.5 +102 Win
    1/16/2008 Missouri @ Iowa State Missouri -5 Bought 1/2 pnt -105 Loss
    1/16/2008 Florida @ Mississippi Mississippi -4.5 Bought 1 pnt +102 Loss

    Wednesday's results
    4-3
    YTD
    12-20-2 (37.5%)

  28. #28
    DukeJohn
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    Another losing day. Precision Picks reported correctly.

    1/17/2008 Utah Jazz @ Denver Nuggets Under 220.5 -105 Loss
    1/17/2008 Rhode Island @ St Louis Rhode Island -4 -110 Had to buy 1 pnt Loss

    Yesterday:
    0-2
    YTD:
    12-22-2 (35.3%)

  29. #29
    DukeJohn
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    Site reported correctly:

    1/18/2008 Atlanta Hawks @ Toronto Raptors Over 187 +102 Loss
    1/18/2008 Portland Trail Blazers @ Miami Heat Under 192 -107 Win
    1/18/2008 Sacramento Kings @ Detroit Pistons Sacramento Kings +10.5 -110 Line off by 1 pnt Win
    Yesterday:
    2-1
    YTD
    14-23-2 (37.8%)

  30. #30
    DukeJohn
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    Another losing day. Between paying for picks and losing so much, the bank roll is down $5719.33. Actual remaining balance is $4160.48. At some point I will have to reduce the amount per bet just to grasp for breath, but cold fear is creeping in and my mind is starting to panic as I sink further beneath the surface.

    Could it be??? That other peeps were right. That Precision Pick only posts correctly when someone pays for their picks. That they are part of some big conspiracy with all the prognosticators linked with Handicapping Police. Could jjgold be correct, "All scammers" No, No, I can't believe it! I won't!

    I desperately break the surface grasping for breath only to sink deeper into the churning waters.

    I continue to pay for the picks...

    Yesterday PP reported correctly:

    1/19/2008 Portland Trail Blazers @ Orlando Magic Portland Trail Blazers +4.5 -110 Loss
    1/19/2008 New York Knicks @ Miami Heat New York Knicks +3.5 -105 Win
    1/19/2008 New Jersey Nets @ Los Angeles Clippers New Jersey Nets -1 -110 Had to buy 1/2 pnt Loss
    1/19/2008 Notre Dame @ Georgetown Notre Dame +9 -111 Had to buy 1/2 pnt Loss
    1/19/2008 Villanova @ Syracuse Villanova +4 +102 Got at +4 1/2 Win
    1/19/2008 Duquesne @ Fordham Duquesne -3 -105 Had to buy 1/2 pnt Loss
    1/19/2008 Maryland @ North Carolina Maryland +19 -105 Win
    1/19/2008 Boston College @ Virginia Boston College +6.5 -112 Had to buy 1 pnt Loss
    Yesterday
    3-5
    YTD
    17-28-2 (37.8%) $5719.33 including cost of picks

  31. #31
    DukeJohn
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    Yesterday was a winner. PP reported correctly:

    1/20/2008 New Jersey Nets @ Phoenix Suns Phoenix Suns -11 +105 Win
    1/20/2008 San Diego Chargers @ New England Patriots Over 46 -112 Had to buy 1 pntLoss
    1/20/2008 New York Giants @ Green Bay Packers New York Giants +7.5 -103 Win
    Yesterday
    2-1
    YTD
    19-29-2 (39.6%)

  32. #32
    twtb19
    twtb19's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 12-08-07
    Posts: 553
    Betpoints: 12

    wow, fade the hell out of that guy and you would be hitting above 60%....he would be better off flipping a coin.

  33. #33
    chandler1981
    chandler1981's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 11-18-07
    Posts: 422

    I can give you some winners on a daily basis if you just wanna get your money back. I only play games about 3 days a week, maybe 4. But, if the money isnt an issue and you just wanna keep trying, good luck. I agree with JJ on this one. Best of luck Duke. Let me know if you want a few winners.

  34. #34
    louisvillekid
    slummin it
    louisvillekid's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 08-14-07
    Posts: 6,114
    Betpoints: 5453

    you can find a guy at another gambling forum who posts all kinds of service plays, he posts at the "prescription" under the handle "can'tpickawinner'

  35. #35
    DukeJohn
    DukeJohn's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 12-29-07
    Posts: 1,781
    Betpoints: 94

    Quote Originally Posted by chandler1981 View Post
    I can give you some winners on a daily basis if you just wanna get your money back. I only play games about 3 days a week, maybe 4. But, if the money isnt an issue and you just wanna keep trying, good luck. I agree with JJ on this one. Best of luck Duke. Let me know if you want a few winners.
    Thank you Chandler I will keep ya in mind if this horse I'm riding dies. When I was searching the Internet for any information on Precision Picks and HP, I couldn't really find anything too negative. Sure there was speculation whether they were a legitimate service. Most saying the services linked with HP couldn't possibly month after month do as well as they said, but know one had actually tried them for a period of time and posted it. So, currently, that is the reason I am doing it. For the next guy. Let him have at least some recorded history of past results from a third party. I probably shouldn't have picked the guy who was on a losing streak. If he continues this course the experiment will be over rather quickly. I do really appreciate the offer and I might take you up on it at some time in the future.

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