[UncleChris]

Some of the posters in this thread must be a bookies wet dream...you guys have no clue at all, Lesnar was a CATCHER.
In a real fight his bad ass attitude, oiled muscle masses and faces wont help him, against the experience and techniques of real fighters.

This thread is hilarious.

That's what I already mentioned. Nothing to add. Nevertheless a funny thread.

[robzilla]

Some of the posters in this thread must be a bookies wet dream...you guys have no clue at all, Lesnar was a CATCHER.
In a real fight his bad ass attitude, oiled muscle masses and faces wont help him, against the experience and techniques of real fighters.

This thread is hilarious.

If you are so sure Mir is going to win I will give you -600 on Mir.

[The Seer]

The best ground and pounder of all time was Mark Kerr who was a more accomplished wrestler and MMA guy. Even after training with Bas Rutten, when he went up against the "technique" guys, he didn't do so well. Kerr would pound Lesnar in the ground so there's no hope for Lesnar against Mir.

[Gurni]

If you are so sure Mir is going to win I will give you -600 on Mir.

We are not talking about such odds here, you make it sound like Lesnar will dominate the fight, and that Mir hardly stands a chance.

So for you Lesnar is the favorite, will you give me..hmmm...+120 on Mir?

[roasthawg]

hey i don't watch fake wrestling and i'm no lesnar fan but i think a lot of you guys are seriously underestimating him...he's an athlete and a great wrestler, two of the three things you need to succeed in mma. as for the other, boxing skills, that's where i have big doubts but we'll find out soon enough. based on wrestling alone i give lesnar even odds to win this fight.

[slacker00]

hey i don't watch fake wrestling and i'm no lesnar fan but i think a lot of you guys are seriously underestimating him...he's an athlete and a great wrestler, two of the three things you need to succeed in mma. as for the other, boxing skills, that's where i have big doubts but we'll find out soon enough. based on wrestling alone i give lesnar even odds to win this fight.

I've seen a lot of great wrestlers try their hand in MMA, with mixed results. Obviously Randy Couture is the poster child of how a wrestler can make a very nice transition. But I've seen plenty of wrestler types that just can't grasp the concept of the clinch, much less the stand up game. Even worse, some can't even grasp the submission ground game. Even if they can get a top position, they can't do anything if the bottom guy has a reasonable ground game. Just being a wrestler only gives a guy so much. Mainly, it establishes a "mat rat" mentality where a guy is willing to sacrifice hours & hours in the gym, which is a very basic requirement for training to be a MMA fighter. It still remains to be seen whether Lesnar can make that kind of committment. Even if he can, it can take years and years of hard work to get there. He has barely just started his quest. A guy like Mir is just too far ahead of him in this respect. The only thing that Lesnar might have on his side is DESIRE. Mir certainly seems to lack this aspect in his matches. But, I haven't really seen it from Lesnar either, necessarily.

[slacker00]

I scoured the internet looking for an available line on Lesnar-Mir, but can't find anything. Apparently it hasn't opened anywhere yet. I imagine it'll maybe open at anywhere from Mir -160 to Mir -200. Lesnar's name recognition and fake wrestling fan base will be enough to keep this number down. I almost wonder if Lesnar's fan base will be able to bring the number down to Lesnar actually being a favorite. It's hard to predict because this type of media crossover is so unprecidented. Personally, I think I'll try to hold out before placing my bet on Mir to see what the line does. I expect plenty of dead money going on Lesnar, the question is exactly how much.

[roasthawg]

^i could easily see lesnar being a favorite based upon his fan base but then again who is his fan base? aren't they mostly kids? so who knows...

as far as wrestlers transitioning to mma, i agree you can't really tell one way or another initially...same goes for a boxer trying to make the leap though. does the wrestler have hands? does the boxer have enough lower body strength? the one thing we do know about lesnar that makes me think he can win this fight is that he's not just an average wrestler...he's superior. plus, his strength is off the charts and he has one of those heads that is so oversized it's hard to imagine him ever getting hurt. i definitely think he's too big to stand toe to toe with anyone and do any damage and i can pretty much guarantee he'll never try to kick anybody but his strength and wrestling skills could be lethal on the ground...can't wait to see! for the record, i got lesnar...

[robzilla]

Why do you guys talk about Lesnar like he is Hulk Hogan or something? Lesnar is an accomplished amature wrestler. This is not like Ric Flair walking into a UFC... This guy is the future of athletics.

[BrentCrude]

If Vern Gagne was still wrestling he would get Lesnar with his patented sleeper hold.Baron Von Raschke,the claw master would get him too.Wrestling characters were much better when I was a kid.Now all you have are freakazoid steroid bums without personalities who just have roid rage.I'll take the Crusher,Killer Kawalski and Mad Dog Vachon anyday over the modern day crap.I would rather watch a match where one of the fattest men in the world at the time,Haystack Calhoun accidentally farted on a guy and the guy had to submit because he became ill over it.Thanks for ruining wrestling Vince ** Mahon you shrunken deflated ex 98# weakling turned steroid bum turned 98# pound weakling again.Then they even brought in girlfriends of wrestlers into the mix where they are fighting for the right to bed them down.Geesh,if I wanted to see social dysfunction in society,I would just go to my family reunion.

[roasthawg]

If Vern Gagne was still wrestling he would get Lesnar with his patented sleeper hold.Baron Von Raschke,the claw master would get him too.Wrestling characters were much better when I was a kid.Now all you have are freakazoid steroid bums without personalities who just have roid rage.I'll take the Crusher,Killer Kawalski and Mad Dog Vachon anyday over the modern day crap.I would rather watch a match where one of the fattest men in the world at the time,Haystack Calhoun accidentally farted on a guy and the guy had to submit because he became ill over it.Thanks for ruining wrestling Vince ** Mahon you shrunken deflated ex 98# weakling turned steroid bum turned 98# pound weakling again.Then they even brought in girlfriends of wrestlers into the mix where they are fighting for the right to bed them down.Geesh,if I wanted to see social dysfunction in society,I would just go to my family reunion.

that's all good but we're talking about a real life fight here.

[slacker00]

If Vern Gagne was still wrestling he would get Lesnar with his patented sleeper hold.Baron Von Raschke,the claw master would get him too.Wrestling characters were much better when I was a kid.Now all you have are freakazoid steroid bums without personalities who just have roid rage.I'll take the Crusher,Killer Kawalski and Mad Dog Vachon anyday over the modern day crap.I would rather watch a match where one of the fattest men in the world at the time,Haystack Calhoun accidentally farted on a guy and the guy had to submit because he became ill over it.Thanks for ruining wrestling Vince ** Mahon you shrunken deflated ex 98# weakling turned steroid bum turned 98# pound weakling again.Then they even brought in girlfriends of wrestlers into the mix where they are fighting for the right to bed them down.Geesh,if I wanted to see social dysfunction in society,I would just go to my family reunion.

I've got my money on George "The Animal" Steele!



As for wrestlers going into MMA versus boxers going into MMA, wrestlers have more luck. I don't know any pure boxers that were worth anything going into MMA. Mostly Judo, Jujitsu & kickboxing seem to transfer most naturally to MMA. Karate & Sumo wrestling also seem to transfer poorly.

[UncleChris]

Why do you guys talk about Lesnar like he is Hulk Hogan or something? Lesnar is an accomplished amature wrestler. This is not like Ric Flair walking into a UFC... This guy is the future of athletics.

A future of athletics blown up with roids?..that would be sad.

[robzilla]

A future of athletics blown up with roids?..that would be sad.

Duh, that is the future.

[Mason]

I think both sides here make valid points.

On the one hand some people here clearly do not appreciate Brock Lesnar, perhaps underestimating him because he was in the WWE? In reality he's a 4 time collegiate All-American wrestler, 2 time Big-10 Champion (Only wrestled in the Big-10 2 years) and NCAA Heavyweight Champion (He didn't beat the Heavyweights from Iowa, Iowa St. Oklahoma St. et al simply because he was stronger, please!). At Minnesota he wrestled the best of the best every single day in practice and continues to train with the world's elite wrstlers. Minnesota/Iowa/Dakotas is to wrestling as Brazil is to Soccer/ju jitsu.

Now onto his stint with the Vikings. 1st off the man ran a 4.7 40 which is mind blowing and gives you some idea of his athleticism (Clearly not just some muscle bound, roidster). After not having played since small time High School ball in S. Dakota. he was tried out at DL, not OL and looked like he was on his way to earning a spot on the practice squad until he got injured in a motorcycle accident. In one scrimmage against the Chiefs he got tossed out for body literally slamming a 300lb+ guard for the Chiefs and then single handedly taking on several of the chiefs linemen. With his speed and kamaikaze attitude the Vikes were experimenting with him as a wedge breaker on kickoff returns as well. Remember, even after the accident the Vikings asked him to play in NFL Europe and come back next year when he was healed and had more experience. He passed because his goal was to be closer to his daughter.


Now, on the topic of Mir and MMA in general. I have never seen Mir fight, nor do I know how good he is after recovering from his injuries, etc. In general if he was once the Heavyweight Champ then I think Lesnar might be in over his head for this being only his second fight, but if the line is -600 on Mir I'll come out of retirement to get some Lesnar +450. If I was getting +120 on Lesnar, I'd stay away altogether.

I think Lesnar has a real future in the sport but should be brought along more slowly (OF course that is simply not Lesnar's style.). I think a match against some schmuck like Kimbo would be a better fight for Lesnar. In another thread someone said Kimb Slice would be a -200 favorite against Lesnar. Kimbo wouldn't last a round with Lesnar period. Lesnar should pad his record while learning the submission game. That is the one area he is vulnerable in IMO. He is NOT going to get knocked out by a punch or kick. A trick, wrist lock, or reverse knee bar or some such crap is what I could see doing him in though.

[BrentCrude]

that's all good but we're talking about a real life fight here.

You say it's a real no holds barred fight between absolute stud brawlers but I'll bet the contract they sign will fall under the state sanctions of an entertainment exhibition and not athletics?Wasn't that what blew the lid off of wrestling being able to say they didn't want government involvement because they were entertainment and not sports?If that's the case,you might as well just say this whole Lesnar thing is an orchestrated farce too.

Remember the hype and buildup and people going to pay per view at bars with those cheesey giant screen t.v.'s in the early 70's where Ali fought against that grand master BS kung fu champion?All the guy did was collect a big paycheck for getting in some weird fetal crab sex position on the ring mat and playing a turtle kicking at Ali so he would stay at arms length away.The guy was supposed to be fighting for the honor of the far east over western culture.

[donjuan]

I will give you -600 on Mir if you give me +450 on Lesnar.

Are you retarded? Giving him -600 on Mir is the same as him giving you +600 on Lesnar.

[roasthawg]

You say it's a real no holds barred fight between absolute stud brawlers but I'll bet the contract they sign will fall under the state sanctions of an entertainment exhibition and not athletics?Wasn't that what blew the lid off of wrestling being able to say they didn't want government involvement because they were entertainment and not sports?If that's the case,you might as well just say this whole Lesnar thing is an orchestrated farce too.

Remember the hype and buildup and people going to pay per view at bars with those cheesey giant screen t.v.'s in the early 70's where Ali fought against that grand master BS kung fu champion?All the guy did was collect a big paycheck for getting in some weird fetal crab sex position on the ring mat and playing a turtle kicking at Ali so he would stay at arms length away.The guy was supposed to be fighting for the honor of the far east over western culture.

we're talking about mma here, if you've watched even ONE mma event recently then you know there is absolutely nothing fake about it. the fighting is real, end of story.

[slacker00]

Why do you guys seem to think that Lesnar can take a punch? Has he ever taken a punch? Has he ever taken a knee to the jaw or a kick to the face? If he doesn't know how to avoid getting hit, and gets hit square, he will lose consciousness. Lesnar is not some some kind of superman just because he looks like one.

As for Lesnar's wrestling. That was a long time ago, with a different body. His roided bodybuilder physique will actually be a severe liability. I've seen it over and over again in MMA. It will limit his flexibility & range, despite adding power. His wrestling ability might allow him to attempt a decent takedown, but any experienced MMA champion such as Mir has a counter to anyting Lesnar will be trying.

I rewatched some of the Mir fights I've got on DVD and I'm even more convinced than I was before. Mir is constantly going for arms, legs, chokes when he's in close. I never really appreciated it before because the opponents he was fighting pretty much knew how to counter what he was doing. I think Lesnar will just get his arm caught, bent, and submitted probably on Mir's first attempt. This thing might be over before it starts.

Lesnar has no striking skills, no submission skills, so basically he has no offense. Wrestling is no offense, except maybe to get a takedown. But, in MMA, a takedown is just a beginning to an attack. If you cannot strike or submit someone on the ground, all you can do is lay on the opponent and "hope" that he gets frustrated and does something stupid. Mir is way too experienced and too intelligent to let Lesnar hurt him.

My only worry is about how Mir does seem to get gassed. I wonder if he has a medical condition or something. Even if Mir gets gassed, I don't see Lesnar hurting him. It just brings the possibility of it going to a decision, and if Mir spends the match on the defense, which BJJ fighters always do, the decision could go to Lesnar. This is probably the best hope for Lesnar, and isn't extremely unlikely.

[Mason]

"Why do you guys seem to think that Lesnar can take a punch? Has he ever taken a punch? Has he ever taken a knee to the jaw or a kick to the face?"

Have you ever wrestled on a team? Even at the High School level wrestlers are animals. One does not become a 4 time All American without being able to take a few shots. That is not counting the years in WWE and playing with an NFL team. I feel confident he can take a shot.

"As for Lesnar's wrestling. That was a long time ago, with a different body. His roided bodybuilder physique will actually be a severe liability. I've seen it over and over again in MMA. It will limit his flexibility & range, despite adding power."

He still wrestles with the same Olympic caliber guys he's always wrestled with. Next, I hate to reference WWE which I don't even watch but those guys are VERY agile and felxible. 300lb men doing backflips off of the 3rd rope or whatever they do are athletic. He doesn't look like he lacks felxibility to me in this training video.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTczMKtmvdQ

"Lesnar has no striking skills, no submission skills, so basically he has no offense. Wrestling is no offense"

How do you know? You think he's never thrown a punch in his life or been training for MMA?

"I think Lesnar will just get his arm caught, bent, and submitted probably on Mir's first attempt. This thing might be over before it starts."

I agree with you here. I think he should beat up on some soup cans like Kimbo before he starts taking on former MMA Champions.

[slacker00]

Taking a punch from a high school kid is different than taking a punch from a professional cage fighter who's main objective is to knock you out.

Has Lesnar done any actual competition wrestling lately? Rolling around on the mat with his old buddies isn't the same thing. I'm not laughing off his college wrestling achievements, but it's not nearly enough to be successful in a UFC main event. The real interest for me is what kind of MMA training he's doing. If he's training with his old wrestling buddies in preparation for the Mir fight, my line just went up to -2000. I'd hope he latched on with the Militage camp or something. Still, I don't think he can learn enough in a short period of time to have a reasonable chance against Mir.

Again, regarding Lesnar's striking skills, he hasn't shown professional calibre chops. This stuff doesn't develop overnight. You can't hit a heavy bag in a gym for a couple months and emerge as the next Mike Tyson. This is basically what seems to be asked of Lesnar. I think this is asking way too much.

Yes, I think Lesnar could have found an easier opponent for his first UFC match. That even makes me more suspicious. It makes it easy for Lesnar to give up or cop out, similar to when he tried the NFL and quit immediately. At least he can walk away saying he fought the best and there's no shame. He's already walking away from MMA. If we was serious, he'd take some lower level fights and work his way up. The way he's doing this, he's just generating hype. Then again, what else would I expect from a fake wrestler. I almost half expect this fight to get cancelled with Lesnar faking an injury or other excuse.

If you want an analogy, Lesnar entering MMA is about like Michael Jordan playing professional baseball.

[robzilla]

Its more like Lesnar is going from Racketball to Tennis.

[robzilla]

In a recent PPV Randy couture even said he respects young talented guys like Brock Lesnar.

[donjuan]

Robzilla,

What do you estimate the fair line for the fight to be, then?

[roasthawg]

Taking a punch from a high school kid is different than taking a punch from a professional cage fighter who's main objective is to knock you out.

the biggest question about lesnar is his ability to strike imo, not his ability to take a punch. certain guys are just built to take a lickin and keep on tickin you know, look at the size of dude's head and that square jawline he has...tough to knock out a guy like that.

If you want an analogy, Lesnar entering MMA is about like Michael Jordan playing professional baseball.

not even close on this one, lesnar is a world class wrestler meaning mma is a fairly natural transition for him requiring similar training/skill set. many of the world's best mma fighters come from a wrestling background, most if not all of them could not even come close to matching lesnar's resume in this regard. baseball and basketball are apples and oranges, mj was just having fun.

[robzilla]

Robzilla,

What do you estimate the fair line for the fight to be, then?

based on Lesnars first fight in the UFC and Mir already being a ex UFC champ it should be -150 for Mir.

In reality, it should be -160 for Lesnar.

[Gurni]

based on Lesnars first fight in the UFC and Mir already being a ex UFC champ it should be -150 for Mir.

In reality, it should be -160 for Lesnar.

Will you give me -200 for Mir?
Good deal for you, if you really think what you wrote.

[robzilla]

Will you give me -200 for Mir?
Good deal for you, if you really think what you wrote.

How about -225 at Matchbook for 100 bucks. you set it up.

[Gurni]

I doubt they would set up that event for me..they refused NBA 1st halfs when i asked for them.

[donjuan]

Perhaps you don't understand what a fair line is. I'm asking you to give the moneyline for which you believe the fight is breakeven. Something like -160/+160 with Lesnar as the favorite would suffice. Or a percentage will work too.

[robzilla]

Perhaps you don't understand what a fair line is. I'm asking you to give the moneyline for which you believe the fight is breakeven. Something like -160/+160 with Lesnar as the favorite would suffice. Or a percentage will work too.

Yes -160 lesnar /+160 mir is breakeven in my opinion

[wmublows]

http://www2.sportsnet.ca/video/mma/2...es_in_February

A video of Brock preparing for his bout vs Mir in Feb.

[jdwars]

UFC - UFC 81 - Heavyweight Matchup
2/2/08 705 Brock Lesnar
-200
22:00 ET Frank Mir
+160

[robzilla]

at Pinnacle
08:15 PM 271 Brock Lesnar -146 Risk Frank Mir +136

[Gurni]

UFC - UFC 81 - Heavyweight Matchup
2/2/08 705 Brock Lesnar
-200
22:00 ET Frank Mir
+160

What book had +160 for Mir?