[Whispers]

In no certain order: Carlton Gibson Paige Koufax Ryan Clemens W. Johnson Maddux W. Spahn .....way too early to include DeGrom in this group

[stevenash]

^
Seaver, Jim Palmer

[jjgold]

He goes today

[stevenash]

Did Rivera win his own games with a solo homerun and win 1-0 in a complete game? Did Rivera homer in a game and win 1-0 in a complete game shutout?

You can't argue Mo and Jake anyway, one was a reliever, the other is a starter for openers.
A one inning relief pitcher can't pitch a complete game shutout, nor hit a game winning HR.
Apples and oranges.

I'm a huge deGrom fan myself, but how can anybody (not you personally) even put deGrom and Rivera in the same sentence.
One (deGrom) even though he checks almost all the boxes, God given talent, the ability to think clearly on the worlds largest stage, that being pitching in NYC in front of 40,000 critics (live fans) and millions of others on TV while 100 TV cameras are up your ass. you name it, he checks almost all the boxes, IMO clearly the best pitcher in the game now.
Thing is this is going to be his third consecutive season where he doesn't meet the criteria to qualify for any major awards.
He's not going to pitch the minimum innings (162) needed.
There's question marks in regard to his durability.

I'll answer your question with questions of my own.
Has deGrom entered the Hall of Fame unanimously?
Has deGrom won five World Series championships? Yes, I am fully aware that a World Series title is a team achievement, not an individual effort, there is no doubt though the Yankees probably don't win five rings without Rivera.

deGrom has the potential to be inducted into the Hall of Fame when he reirs, he needs to stay healthy, and he needs to continue to dominate.
I like watching him pitch, he's good for baseball, I'm rooting for him, and all that other happy horseshit.

Bottom line, one guy (Rivera) has been declared by dozens and dozens of professional baseball people that he was the greatest relief pitcher that ever played, deGrom, if he stays healthy will probably be recognized as this era's best starting pitcher. There's a big gap between greatest ever and best of this era.

deGrom is not on the same level that Seaver, and Pedro, and Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux etc. are on. Yet.
Maybe in time you can put deGrom's name with those, that remains to be seen, but maybe.

[DrunkHorseplayer]

Randy Johnson was the best pitcher ever; from '93 - '02, he was 175-58 while pitching for some good teams and a couple of great ones and facing steroid monkeys.

[stevenash]

Randy Johnson was the best pitcher ever; from '93 - '02, he was 175-58 while pitching for some good teams and a couple of great ones and facing steroid monkeys.

You can say Randy Johnson and can't argue that, you can make a case for the Unit, I still prefer Maddux and Pedro first and second though.
That's just my preference, and your opinion is valid.

[Mugsy]

Randy Johnson won 3 games in the 2001 World Series over the Yankees.
won 2 as a starter, won game 7 in relief.
greatest performance ever...

[stevenash]

Randy Johnson won 3 games in the 2001 World Series over the Yankees.
won 2 as a starter, won game 7 in relief.
greatest performance ever...

No love for Mad Bum's 2014 WS performance?

[Whispers]

Funny how all of us forgot Cy Young....511 wins. I get the argument that the athletes of today are for more advanced physically, but even so, a record that will NEVER be broken.

[stevenash]

Funny how all of us forgot Cy Young....511 wins. I get the argument that the athletes of today are for more advanced physically, but even so, a record that will NEVER be broken.

You won't ever see a 500 career win pitcher ever again, major reason being MLB has transitioned into a bullpen game now.
Relief innings pitched across the board are on a record setting pace. The last time I checked the percentage of innings pitched breakdown was 60 percent of the innings pitched were starter innings, and 40 percent of the innings were relief innings.

Take a look at Cy Young's career.
100 years ago starting pitchers went every third day, forty plus games started was common place, so was 400 innings pitched, and almost every pitcher finished what they started, unreal the ratio between games started and complete games.
Reason being back in the day when the T-Rex grazed my daddy's backyard for grass to eat and your pal Nasher had a full set of hair all twelve teams, (that's right, all twelve MLB teams) had three real live starter arms, the rest of the pitching staff were relegated to the bullpen, the bullpen was like purgatory, if you were a reliever back in Cy Young's playing days your best hope of seeing playing time was if one of the starters went down due to injury, if you started a game, it's odds on you were going to finish it.

Look at Cy Young's 1892 season, the numbers are mind boggling.
Young started 49 games, 48 of those starts were complete games, that's nuts.
And the regular season back then was 154 games.

In 1892 there were a total of 1836 games played, 1836 starts , 1623 or 88% of all the games played were started and finished by the same man.

It gets better, Cy Young that year wasn't even the league leader in games started, complete games, and wins.
He was second, Wild Bill Hutchinson, born right here in New Haven Ct. pitching for your fancy Chicago Cubs made 71 starts, pretty much half of all the Cubs games, in 71 games he completed 67 of them, pitched 627 innings.
Get a load of this, Wild Bill had a record of 37 and 36.
That's a career for half of today's starters.

As of today, the average start is 5.2 innings, and the bullpen averages 3.6 a game.
Today, 60 percent of all games are pitched by the starting (opening) pitcher, and the last 40 percent of the game are relievers.
Never has it been that high.

The most disturbing thing is, in Cy Youngs day, sports medicine was pretty much non existent, is was crude, yet we had pitchers tossing 600 innings a year, and their arm never fell off.
Today we have all sorts of training and medicine, and still every time you turn around a pitcher goes on the DL, or so it seems.

[Whispers]

You won't ever see a 500 career win pitcher ever again, major reason being MLB has transitioned into a bullpen game now.
Relief innings pitched across the board are on a record setting pace. The last time I checked the percentage of innings pitched breakdown was 60 percent of the innings pitched were starter innings, and 40 percent of the innings were relief innings.

Take a look at Cy Young's career.
100 years ago starting pitchers went every third day, forty plus games started was common place, so was 400 innings pitched, and almost every pitcher finished what they started, unreal the ratio between games started and complete games.
Reason being back in the day when the T-Rex grazed my daddy's backyard for grass to eat and your pal Nasher had a full set of hair all twelve teams, (that's right, all twelve MLB teams) had three real live starter arms, the rest of the pitching staff were relegated to the bullpen, the bullpen was like purgatory, if you were a reliever back in Cy Young's playing days your best hope of seeing playing time was if one of the starters went down due to injury, if you started a game, it's odds on you were going to finish it.

Look at Cy Young's 1892 season, the numbers are mind boggling.
Young started 49 games, 48 of those starts were complete games, that's nuts.
And the regular season back then was 154 games.

In 1892 there were a total of 1836 games played, 1836 starts , 1623 or 88% of all the games played were started and finished by the same man.

It gets better, Cy Young that year wasn't even the league leader in games started, complete games, and wins.
He was second, Wild Bill Hutchinson, born right here in New Haven Ct. pitching for your fancy Chicago Cubs made 71 starts, pretty much half of all the Cubs games, in 71 games he completed 67 of them, pitched 627 innings.
Get a load of this, Wild Bill had a record of 37 and 36.
That's a career for half of today's starters.

As of today, the average start is 5.2 innings, and the bullpen averages 3.6 a game.
Today, 60 percent of all games are pitched by the starting (opening) pitcher, and the last 40 percent of the game are relievers.
Never has it been that high.

The most disturbing thing is, in Cy Youngs day, sports medicine was pretty much non existent, is was crude, yet we had pitchers tossing 600 innings a year, and their arm never fell off.
Today we have all sorts of training and medicine, and still every time you turn around a pitcher goes on the DL, or so it seems.

Excellent write up. Quick story. I played with a guy in HS who started varsity as a freshman and was the Ace of the staff. The coach rode this guy every other start as a freshman, sophomore and junior. As a senior he started EVERY GAME. He was 12-0 and in the 13th start blew out his arm....and so there goes the pro career. As a senior he was scouted by several teams and would have gone in the 1st couple rounds. He still got a full ride to Oklahoma State and played 1st base. I faced him a couple years after college in a league here where I live called The Blue Mountain League. Some ex-pros and good college players played in this league (poor man's Cape Cod League). He pitched with a blown out arm and still threw in the high 80's.....whiffed me in 6 pitches.

[Mugsy]

No love for Mad Bum's 2014 WS performance?

I didn't check but Mad Bum must have got the MVP for that WS.
Wasn't really a fan of his
The Freak was the pitcher I liked on the Giants in those SF dominant years.

[stevenash]

Excellent write up. Quick story. I played with a guy in HS who started varsity as a freshman and was the Ace of the staff. The coach rode this guy every other start as a freshman, sophomore and junior. As a senior he started EVERY GAME. He was 12-0 and in the 13th start blew out his arm....and so there goes the pro career. As a senior he was scouted by several teams and would have gone in the 1st couple rounds. He still got a full ride to Oklahoma State and played 1st base. I faced him a couple years after college in a league here where I live called The Blue Mountain League. Some ex-pros and good college players played in this league (poor man's Cape Cod League). He pitched with a blown out arm and still threw in the high 80's.....whiffed me in 6 pitches.

You too, good post.
I was a scholastic catcher, good stick, my defensive skills were OK, my role was DH, than backup catcher.
Loved to wear the tools of ignorance.

I remember when I was ten years old in Little League pitchers were not allowed to throw a curve ball until their 16th birthday, which I am totally OK with, I've seen four times more arm injuries due to the curve ball than the fastball.
If a kid whose bones and muscles aren't fully developed, and he keeps throwing that hook ball, I guarantee you he's going to muck up his elbow.

Curve ball are evil, I can't hit an off speed junk pitch with a 40 degree break that comes in with super slow motion speed.
I'm a dead red line drive hitter, I don't have time to wait on some sloppy curve. lol

Ever try catching one?
If that pitch isn't working, I'm doing the flounder behind the plate in the dirt boxing the ball around just to keep it front of me.
I only caught one pitcher that could effectively throw a knuckle ball, tough to catch, not tougher than the curve.

The only curve I could hit is what I call the hard curve, something I could drive.

I stopped playing around age 21, I'm not big enough, I'm only 5'8" 170 lbs., unless you have mad middle infield defensive skills and can hit some no coach or scout will give you a second look.
I'm not bitter, that's the sports business where size does matter, it worked out well, now I write about baseball and football.

I miss playing the game, I don't miss the aches and barking joints the following day.
One of my best friends in school was also our ace of the staff.
He's sixteen years old, he's built like a Randy Johnson, at age 16 he was 6'2" and had talent on loan from God.
Denny's fastball was measured at 92 mph and it had movement, at the varsity level some 25 or so years ago, that's pretty rare, maybe ten percent of all the teenaged pitchers can top 90 mph with control.

I'm warming him up in-between innings and he rips this 90 mph warm up pitch that I catch on the bottom left of the mitt, where my thumb is, snapped my thumb straight back, unreal pain.
I couldn't catch for the rest of the season, couldn't even get a comfortable grip on the bat after that.
I'm telling you to this date, 20 plus years later, if I bend the left thumb the wrong way it still hurts

[19th Hole]

TSK TSK TSK...

How can we forget
Charles Radbourn

Charles Radbourn "Old Hoss" holds the record for the most wins in a single-season,
winning 60 games in 1884.





John Clarkson (53 in 1885)

and

Guy Hecker (52 in 1884) are the only other pitchers to win more than 50 games in a single-season.

[hawkwind]

NOPE Maybe in the Top Ten but not #1 only a DELUSIONAL MFAH would think that.

[19th Hole]

[allabout the $$$]

Jake's up there, Greg Maddux was more polished.

In my era, my generation so to speak, Maddux and Pedro were 1 and 1a.
Maddux, when he brought his 'A' game, which was early and often, was impossible to hit, I didn't say near impossible, but impossible.

Maddux once threw a complete game nine inning shutout with 81 pitches in an hour and 38 minutes.

How good was Maddux?
He pitched 13 career nine inning shutouts using 100 pitches or less.
(Now reread that last sentence)
Maddux did all that while pitching in the steroid era too.

As some of you guys know, my guy is, and always will be Mike Mussina.
The best control pitcher I ever saw pitch was Maddux, Mussina was close.
And if one never really paid attention to Mussina when he pitched, I don't mean just looked at, or just watched, but paid attention to Mussina, especially when he had his 'A' game going on, one really doesn't know just how good he was.

As one advanced MLB scout once said, "When on, Mike Mussina's overhand curveball is the most devastation pitch in the game"

what i will say about maddux and he was an amazing pitcher not discrediting his body of work at all, But he had a much larger strike zone to work with

[stevenash]

The Freak was the pitcher I liked on the Giants in those SF dominant years.

Timmay!

Big time Timmy Jim.
Who didn't like Timmy.

Poor guy got virtually every bad break you can imagine.
He lost his wife to cancer, he had major hip problems, Timmy just kept on keeping on.
Loved the kid.

[TommieGunshot]

Did Rivera win his own games with a solo homerun and win 1-0 in a complete game? Did Rivera homer in a game and win 1-0 in a complete game shutout?

What Rivera did was get outs and stop the other team from scoring at a much better rate, especially when adjusted for pitching in an era with much higher scoring.

[stevenash]

what i will say about maddux and he was an amazing pitcher not discrediting his body of work at all, But he had a much larger strike zone to work with

True, Maddux was an artist, he could throw any pitch on either side of the black.
Maddux knew exactly what he had to work with regarding the strike zone.
Greatest control pitcher I ever seen pitch.

[JIBBBY]

Fade and take the Under...

[kidcudi92]

is this actually a thread these days? lol


yikes

[Otters27]

Degrom in the hook in the 9th right now

[Whispers]

You too, good post.
I was a scholastic catcher, good stick, my defensive skills were OK, my role was DH, than backup catcher.
Loved to wear the tools of ignorance.

I remember when I was ten years old in Little League pitchers were not allowed to throw a curve ball until their 16th birthday, which I am totally OK with, I've seen four times more arm injuries due to the curve ball than the fastball.
If a kid whose bones and muscles aren't fully developed, and he keeps throwing that hook ball, I guarantee you he's going to muck up his elbow.

Curve ball are evil, I can't hit an off speed junk pitch with a 40 degree break that comes in with super slow motion speed.
I'm a dead red line drive hitter, I don't have time to wait on some sloppy curve. lol

Ever try catching one?
If that pitch isn't working, I'm doing the flounder behind the plate in the dirt boxing the ball around just to keep it front of me.
I only caught one pitcher that could effectively throw a knuckle ball, tough to catch, not tougher than the curve.

The only curve I could hit is what I call the hard curve, something I could drive.

I stopped playing around age 21, I'm not big enough, I'm only 5'8" 170 lbs., unless you have mad middle infield defensive skills and can hit some no coach or scout will give you a second look.
I'm not bitter, that's the sports business where size does matter, it worked out well, now I write about baseball and football.

I miss playing the game, I don't miss the aches and barking joints the following day.
One of my best friends in school was also our ace of the staff.
He's sixteen years old, he's built like a Randy Johnson, at age 16 he was 6'2" and had talent on loan from God.
Denny's fastball was measured at 92 mph and it had movement, at the varsity level some 25 or so years ago, that's pretty rare, maybe ten percent of all the teenaged pitchers can top 90 mph with control.

I'm warming him up in-between innings and he rips this 90 mph warm up pitch that I catch on the bottom left of the mitt, where my thumb is, snapped my thumb straight back, unreal pain.
I couldn't catch for the rest of the season, couldn't even get a comfortable grip on the bat after that.
I'm telling you to this date, 20 plus years later, if I bend the left thumb the wrong way it still hurts

Lol.....pain keeps the memory alive.

[chico2663]

You can say Randy Johnson and can't argue that, you can make a case for the Unit, I still prefer Maddux and Pedro first and second though.
That's just my preference, and your opinion is valid.

Dude the Maddox strike zone was unbelievable. I love Nolan Ryan but he was on some shitty teams. I also loved fergie Jenkins
I played every position but short stop. I was all star at catcher. Played in same league with Ronnie oester. I was 14 playing in 16 thru 18. Was offered grant in aid to Marietta, partial scholarship to cincy and Valpo. My high school coach told recruiters I had attitude problem so played rugby at Miami,Ohio. This is where my fights started with Brian pilman. He was a wrestler that people knew as flying Brian pill man.

[19th Hole]

Dude the Maddox strike zone was unbelievable. I love Nolan Ryan but he was on some shitty teams. I also loved fergie Jenkins
I played every position but short stop. I was all star at catcher. Played in same league with Ronnie oester. I was 14 playing in 16 thru 18. Was offered grant in aid to Marietta, partial scholarship to cincy and Valpo. My high school coach told recruiters I had attitude problem so played rugby at Miami,Ohio. This is where my fights started with Brian pilman. He was a wrestler that people knew as flying Brian pill man.

Chico-
Thanks for the personal insight.
I hope that all of your physical maladies are in check.
God Bless.

[Whispers]

Last week I saw the new movie about Nolan Ryan called "Facing Nolan". ​Everyone participating in this thread should see it. Can be rented on Prime.

[chico2663]

Chico-
Thanks for the personal insight.
I hope that all of your physical maladies are in check.
God Bless.

Thanks my friend

[stevenash]

Chico-
Thanks for the personal insight.
I hope that all of your physical maladies are in check.
God Bless.

Yeah, the more I learn about Chico the more I love the dude.
I too wrestled, 158lb and 170lb

I was too small to play D1 ball, I played D2 (Union)
Stopped playing after two years, went into the wonderful world of geek and nerdom analytics, never looked back.

Aside to Chico:
Good stuff man

[USCPHILLYGUY]

Missed last nights Mets game. How’d he do

[JIBBBY]

Fade Degrom, now matter how well he pitches the Mets can never offer up any kind of run support when he is on the mound.

[chico2663]

Fade jibby. Only time he wins is with the ladies.

[WRMusic]

Really can't find anybody comparable when you consider he throws a 100 with elite spin, elite movement and super elite command (basically never walks anybody)


I'd say what he's doing is even more impressive than Pedro in 1998-2001

Greg Maddux. Hands down.

[WRMusic]

Mets need him tomorrow, I guarantee he will mow the Braves down like a fukin lawn.

Shouldn’t be guaranteeing things you can’t guarantee…

[JIBBBY]

Fade jibby. Only time he wins is with the ladies.

Fade everyone Chico. ..