[Hman]

Ranking Jayson Tatum, Ben Simmons and NBA juniors by superstar potential

ESPN PLUS ($ MATERIAL)


Jayson Tatum and Donovan Mitchell became NBA All-Stars in Year 3. But they weren't alone at the top of their class.


Though the 2017 draft class is prominently featured in the discussion for the highest ceilings among players in Year 3, don't forget about the first overall pick of the 2016 NBA draft, Ben Simmons. After missing the entire 2016-17 season because of injury, Simmons debuted with the 2017 draftees and secured Rookie of the Year honors.


Now, Bam Adebayo has entered the discussion as possibly the most talented player from his class. And then there's the plethora of point guards from 2017 that includes Markelle Fultz, Lonzo Ball and De'Aaron Fox.


ESPN insiders Mike Schmitz and Kevin Pelton each rank the top 10 NBA juniors by long-term outlook.

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Four All-Stars and one who might join them

Schmitz: This class of NBA third-year players is loaded at the top with four 2020 All-Stars in Philadelphia 76ers PG Ben Simmons, Boston Celtics PF Jayson Tatum, Miami Heat PF Bam Adebayo and Utah Jazz SG

Donovan Mitchell, each bringing something different:

• Tatum has evolved into one of the most effortless wing scorers in the NBA.
  
  
  
• Simmons remains a mismatch problem with ideal defensive versatility.
  
  
  
• Adebayo is turning into a point center of sorts, bringing the ball up the floor regularly while shifting all over the court defensively.
  
  
  
• Mitchell excels as a dynamic three-level scorer who can shoulder a heavy offensive load on a consistent playoff team.
  
  

KP, in our "top 25 under 25" article in March, you gave Simmons the edge over Tatum in your rankings. Not much basketball has been played since, but do you still see Simmons as the superior player? How close is that race and is there anyone other than Simmons or Tatum worthy of considering at the top?


Pelton: In hindsight, I might have been pushing back a bit too much on the Tatum exuberance during February. Looking closely, they've had highly similar seasons in terms of production, and a couple of factors push me toward Tatum long term.


First, since we're going by NBA experience and not draft class, Simmons -- taken a year earlier -- is a year and a half older. Second, it will probably be a bit easier long term to build around Tatum's broad skill set than Simmons' fascinating combination of strengths and weaknesses.


You could make a reasonable case for any of the four All-Stars as the best long-term prospect, but I would say I have Simmons and Tatum a notch ahead of Mitchell and Adebayo. How about you?


Schmitz: I'd also give the edge to Tatum here because of his youth and versatility at a coveted wing spot. The fact that Tatum is knocking down pull-up 3s at such a high rate bodes well for his future as a go-to shot generator on a championship-caliber team.


Through 59 games this season he's attempting 5.7 above-the-break 3s per game, up from 2.8 a season ago. On those above-the-break 3s this season, his 40% accuracy ranks fourth in the NBA among players with at least 300 attempts, according to Second Spectrum data. Tatum has also made strides as a facilitator since his days at Duke, making him even more dangerous offensively.


I know we're focused on third-year players here, but pondering Tatum or Simmons brings me back to our 2016 No. 1 pick debate regarding Simmons and another former Duke wing, Brandon Ingram. As you know, I was fairly outspoken about Ingram being the best prospect in the 2016 draft, and I've stood by that.


Before moving on to how you'd rank Mitchell and Adebayo, I'm curious: Would you still rather have Simmons than Ingram if you were starting a franchise even with the big jump that Ingram made this season? Simmons' statistical profile looks about the same for each of his first three seasons. How rare is it to see a young player come out of the gates that strongly and then have fairly similar numbers the following two seasons?


Pelton: It definitely happens, especially when someone starts their career as well as Simmons did. Blake Griffin would be another example of a player whose box-score stats were fairly similar on a per-minute basis his first three seasons before he broke out in Year 4. Naturally, it's a little more concerning in Simmons' case because of his glaring weakness as an outside shooter, but the breakthroughs for Ingram and Tatum this season are both examples of how development tends not to be as linear and orderly as we might like.


I do feel Simmons has improved defensively this season in a way that isn't entirely captured in his box-score stats, and I wonder how much less glaring his weaknesses would be if he didn't happen to play with one of the league's few remaining post-up threats. All of which is to say I'd still be inclined to take Simmons, though Ingram has made it a much more difficult choice than it was a year ago.


On Mitchell vs. Adebayo, I think I'm guided by the relative scarcity of guards and post players. Because of his playmaking ability, Adebayo isn't as replaceable as a more traditional rim-running big. Still, given a choice between Mitchell with a league-average center and Adebayo with a league-average shooting guard, I think Mitchell is the right choice -- especially as he continues to improve his efficiency. This is the first season in which Mitchell has been more than just a volume scorer, reaching just about league average in terms of true shooting percentage.


How would you rank them? And does Sacramento Kings PG De'Aaron Fox belong in the group with the 2020 All-Stars or is he still a tier below?


Schmitz: Griffin is a good name to look at when making sense of Simmons' first three seasons. As you alluded to, I think we'd both agree that Simmons is most dynamic when he's surrounded by shooters and athletes playing an up-tempo style. As the Milwaukee Bucks have done for Giannis Antetokounmpo in acquiring Brook Lopez, I imagine Simmons' best basketball will be played next to a floor-spacing big, as that's the best way to take advantage of his offensive gifts while hiding his glaring weakness.


This is what made Simmons such a polarizing prospect out of LSU: There was no indication that he would ever be willing to shoot jumpers in NBA games, so he wouldn't be the easiest fit alongside other nonshooters or ball-dominant guards.


As for the Mitchell-Adebayo debate, I lean Mitchell because of the value of having a guard who can consistently generate offense out of pick-and-roll and isolations over the course of an 82-game season. Mitchell leads all players this season with 522 field goal attempts off drives, and only San Antonio Spurs SF DeMar DeRozan and Atlanta Hawks PG Trae Young have made more baskets off drives than Mitchell this season, per Second Spectrum data. Even while carrying a heavy load, Mitchell remains extremely durable, having missed just one game over the past two seasons and four total in his three-year career.


That said, Adebayo's trajectory and development is a fascinating case study, as I don't think even his biggest fans saw him turning into such a stellar passer, especially this quickly. This is probably part of a bigger discussion, but I'm curious, were there any statistical indicators that Adebayo would develop into this type of facilitator? Can you think of any other bigs who had questions about feel but then turned into elite passers in the NBA?


I haven't seen it often. From a sheer scouting standpoint, we saw flashes of ballhandling and occasional passing from Adebayo and understood he was playing a more restricted role than usual at Kentucky, but there was nothing that would have suggested this caliber of court vision.


As for Fox, I think as of today he's likely just a cut below this tier, but I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he's in the same conversation as Mitchell at this time next year. He's more than a year younger and took a big step this season as a finisher, even if his 3-point shooting wasn't stable. As long as the Kings can give him enough space to utilize his blazing speed and he can fine-tune his 3-point shooting, there's no reason Fox shouldn't emerge as a potential All-Star.


Pelton: Great point on Adebayo. There are 88 players in my college projection database who have averaged at least 5 assists per game in the NBA, and of them, Adebayo had the very lowest assist projection coming out of college. He and DeMarcus Cousins are the lone two who were projected to average fewer than two assists per 100 team plays as rookies.

---

The next five

Schmitz: I think most reasonable people would have the same top-five players we do -- Tatum, Simmons, Mitchell, Adebayo and Fox, in some order -- but things aren't quite as clear after Fox. Who is in your next tier and why?


Pelton: Lightning round for the rest of my top 10:


Top-10 Rankings

RANK	PELTON	SCHMITZ
1	Jayson Tatum	Jayson Tatum
2	Ben Simmons	Ben Simmons
3	Donovan Mitchell	Donovan Mitchell
4	Bam Adebayo	Bam Adebayo
5	De'Aaron Fox	De'Aaron Fox
6	Lonzo Ball	Jonathan Isaac
7	Jonathan Isaac	John Collins
8	John Collins	Lonzo Ball
9	OG Anunoby	Markelle Fultz
10	Lauri Markkanen	OG Anunoby

While New Orleans Pelicans PG Lonzo Ball hasn't shown the kind of star potential I believed in coming out of UCLA, he's well on track to being a valuable starter in the league. Already one of the NBA's better defensive point guards, Ball dramatically improved his shooting under the tutelage of New Orleans assistant Fred Vinson -- who also deserves some of the credit for Ingram's development as a shooter -- and has at least become someone defenses have to respect.


Orlando Magic SF Jonathan Isaac was a defensive monster in the 32 games he played this season and is headed toward an eventual All-Defensive Team appearance. Still just 22, he'd probably look better offensively with better floor spacing.


Atlanta Hawks PF John Collins is easily the best offensive player of this group, but we still don't know whether he can defend well enough to be a key part of a good team at either frontcourt spot.


Toronto Raptors SF OG Anunoby separates himself from a deep group of wings (Detroit Pistons SG Luke Kennard, Sacramento SG Bogdan Bogdanovic and New Orleans SF Josh Hart) with his physical defense at both forward spots and 38% 3-point shooting this season.


Speaking of guys who haven't developed since their rookie seasons, Chicago Bulls PF Lauri Markkanen has gone in the wrong direction the past two years. Given the possibility of a coaching change in Chicago, I'm inclined to give him one more year in a new system before bumping him from this group.


Notably absent from my list is No. 1 pick Markelle Fultz, who with the Magic is finally showing the skills that made him a top prospect. Is he in your top 10, Mike?


Schmitz: As one of the more passionate Markelle Fultz apologists you'll find, I did include him at No. 9 on my list, and he has the potential to work his way into that Fox tier. Fultz is one of the most gifted guard prospects I've ever evaluated. Whether at Adidas Nations, USA Basketball, McDonald's All American week or the Jordan Brand Classic, I saw him get the better of several of the players ranked ahead of him on this list.


It's been a bizarre few years for him, but his play through 64 games with the Magic is encouraging considering where he was a year or so ago. Even if he doesn't have the same "hesi pull-up jimbo" that characterized his Washington career, taking open 3s and shooting 72% from the free throw line represent a step in the right direction.


His 26.6% on above-the-break 3s is far from ideal, but he has found ways to dominate the paint with physical drives and short pull-ups while also creatively generating offense for his teammates. If Fultz gets a reliable enough pull-up to force teams over screens, the Magic have themselves a potential All-Star. If that doesn't happen, I can still see Fultz having a Shaun Livingston-style impact as a midrange/post-up guard.


Aside from Fultz, we're more or less on the same page here. Isaac is one of the more intriguing 22-year-olds with how perfectly he fits into the modern game on the defensive end. From his switchability to his rim protection, all young forward prospects would benefit from studying his tape -- he does so many little things well on and off the ball defensively.


I agree with you about Collins' lack of defensive impact, but I've still been really impressed with his productivity, efficiency and improvement at age 22. For a guy who took only one 3 in 64 college outings to be shooting over 40% from 3 on 3.6 attempts per game in his third year is pretty remarkable. If he can maintain the shooting and evolve as a passer, Collins could develop into one of the best offensive bigs in the NBA.


Ball, whom I ranked eighth, remains one of the most unorthodox prospects I've ever evaluated. I remained a big supporter of his during the Los Angeles Lakers lows, and it's been great to see him turning the corner with a somewhat different role in New Orleans.


Leading up to the 2017 NBA draft, I remember a lot of scouts asking, is Ball better without the ball given his lack of wiggle and inconsistent pull-up game? That's proving prophetic in some respects, as most of his offensive value in New Orleans has come as a spot shooter and ball-mover. He ranks in just the 12th percentile in pick-and-roll efficiency, according to Synergy Sports data, and has been much more effective when he's not asked to do too much.


With Ingram and SG Jrue Holiday able to handle a lot of the shot-creation duties, Ball can focus on defending, rebounding, throwing lobs to PF Zion Williamson in transition, knocking down spot 3s and making the right reads in the half court. While his finishing struggles remain, his pull-up is still streaky and he can't make free throws, Ball's a clear NBA starter who still has more upside to tap into.


Last, Anunoby is definitely deserving of a spot on this list, as he's a valuable starter for an NBA Finals contender at age 22. He has the defensive versatility and body every team looks for in a combo forward, he's making spot 3s, and he has quietly made strides as a passer.


For me, Markkanen is on the outside looking in because his development hit a snag this season, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him bounce back. There are lots of creative ways to use a 7-footer who can move and shoot like he can.





Brooklyn Nets center Jarrett Allen also just missed the cut for me. And the name I had the toughest time leaving off this list is Bogdan Bogdanovic. I'll never forget watching the fiery 6-foot-6 Serbian guard outplay a 17-year-old Luka Doncic (0-for-6 in 17 minutes) in Istanbul at the 2017 EuroLeague Final Four. Thanks to his shooting, instincts and toughness, he has proved himself as a valuable NBA starter and would make a heck of a sixth man for a contender. But he's almost 28 years old, so I'm giving the nod to Anunoby.


One other player I could see working his way onto this list is Kennard. Although he played just 28 games because of injury, the 6-foot-6 lefty quietly averaged 15.8 points with a 2.67 assist-turnover ratio and shot 40% from 3.


Some other names on my radar screen: Hart, Memphis Grizzlies SG Dillon Brooks and San Antonio Spurs SG Derrick White.

[rm18]

Not sure how Dillon Brooks is not in the top 10 only weakness is sometimes take too many Kobe type shots but he is a big time defender and scorer.

[Goat Milk]

Simmons is a much better player than Tatum.

Simmons is one of the top 5 perimeter defenders in the league, he's a top 5 passer, a top 10 rebounder (overal, not just position), and one of the best paint players in the NBA

Hard to say Tatum is better when literally the only thing he does better is shoot the basketball

Simmons is a grown ass man and physical freak

Now Tatum could definitely mature and become one of the best players in the NBA. But he needs size. He needs defense. He needs toughnes. I think he'll get there, but if we're talking right now at this moment, it's simmons.

[shadymcgrady]

Rly like bam's game, talk about playing in the right era. He's a 6'9" center that can play small ball in a landscape that is moving in that direction.

A little range to his jumper and he'll be a lock for 36+ min on any team with a max deal. Guaranteed min leads to productivity leads to all star appearances leads to max deal

[Goat Milk]

Rly like bam's game, talk about playing in the right era. He's a 6'9" center that can play small ball in a landscape that is moving in that direction.

A little range to his jumper and he'll be a lock for 36+ min on any team with a max deal. Guaranteed min leads to productivity leads to all star appearances leads to max deal

Good young player but def wouldn't classify him as a C. Would get eaten alive by the likes of Embiid or Jokic.

[cincinnatikid513]

ben simmons has what 1 made 3 pointer

cmon man

[champlain]

Simmons is a much better player than Tatum.

Simmons is one of the top 5 perimeter defenders in the league, he's a top 5 passer, a top 10 rebounder (overal, not just position), and one of the best paint players in the NBA

Hard to say Tatum is better when literally the only thing he does better is shoot the basketball

Simmons is a grown ass man and physical freak

Now Tatum could definitely mature and become one of the best players in the NBA. But he needs size. He needs defense. He needs toughnes. I think he'll get there, but if we're talking right now at this moment, it's simmons.

I don’t want to argue who is better but you saying Simmons is a much better player is asinine.

[Goat Milk]

I don’t want to argue who is better but you saying Simmons is a much better player is asinine.

I just think Simmons right now is one of the best players, not just young players, in the NBA. He's very very hard to stop once he makes a step over the 3 point line. The guy is the biggest point guard we've ever seen in the history of basketball. He's 6 foot 10 and he's strong as hell.

People value shooting so much. It's not all about shooting. Magic Johnson was never a shooter. No one could stop him. Anyway that's just my thoughts. Right now Simmons is elite to me because of power and defense and all around game and Tatum is like all star level. You can't tell Tatum to go out and guard the best player on the other side. He's not capable.

All the best players in the world are great defenders except for James Harden, and Tatum is no where near that level offensively. So he doesn't get a pass in my book.

[thomorino]

I just think Simmons right now is one of the best players, not just young players, in the NBA. He's very very hard to stop once he makes a step over the 3 point line. The guy is the biggest point guard we've ever seen in the history of basketball. He's 6 foot 10 and he's strong as hell.

People value shooting so much. It's not all about shooting. Magic Johnson was never a shooter. No one could stop him. Anyway that's just my thoughts. Right now Simmons is elite to me because of power and defense and all around game and Tatum is like all star level. You can't tell Tatum to go out and guard the best player on the other side. He's not capable.

All the best players in the world are great defenders except for James Harden, and Tatum is no where near that level offensively. So he doesn't get a pass in my book.

Simmons can’t shoot and never will be able to. He’s not close to elite. Look what happened in the Toronto series, he got completely exposed and didn’t even run the offense at the end of games. Butler ran the point. Magic worthy and kareem, he wouldn’t have won shit without them because he wasn’t a good shooter. Philadelphia will never win anything paying simmons 35 million a year.

[DOM-Ganador]

I just think Simmons right now is one of the best players, not just young players, in the NBA. He's very very hard to stop once he makes a step over the 3 point line. The guy is the biggest point guard we've ever seen in the history of basketball. He's 6 foot 10 and he's strong as hell.

People value shooting so much. It's not all about shooting. Magic Johnson was never a shooter. No one could stop him. Anyway that's just my thoughts. Right now Simmons is elite to me because of power and defense and all around game and Tatum is like all star level. You can't tell Tatum to go out and guard the best player on the other side. He's not capable.

All the best players in the world are great defenders except for James Harden, and Tatum is no where near that level offensively. So he doesn't get a pass in my book.

Time will tell. I think Tatum will have a better career than Simmons. Tatum doesn`t have to be the #1 defender as long a Jaylen Brown is his team mate.

Simmons is great, but he ain`t no Magic Johnson.

As long as Harden does what he does and doesn`t lead his team to a chip, he belongs alongside my man George Gervin.

[thomorino]

Tatum will be the best player of those by far, and it won’t be close. Mitchel is too small he’s only 6-2, Simmons can’t shoot. Tatum was playing at an MVP level after Kenna got hurt, he will only get better, he just need to add some weight to finish better at the rim which he did this year.

[thomorino]

I just think Simmons right now is one of the best players, not just young players, in the NBA. He's very very hard to stop once he makes a step over the 3 point line. The guy is the biggest point guard we've ever seen in the history of basketball. He's 6 foot 10 and he's strong as hell.

People value shooting so much. It's not all about shooting. Magic Johnson was never a shooter. No one could stop him. Anyway that's just my thoughts. Right now Simmons is elite to me because of power and defense and all around game and Tatum is like all star level. You can't tell Tatum to go out and guard the best player on the other side. He's not capable.

All the best players in the world are great defenders except for James Harden, and Tatum is no where near that level offensively. So he doesn't get a pass in my book.

Steph Curry is one of the worst defenders in the NBA the idea the top players are all top defenders is absurd.

[rm18]

Steph Curry is one of the worst defenders in the NBA the idea the top players are all top defenders is absurd.

Harden is a way better defender than Curry. Plenty of stars weak on defense. Lillard and Doncic are horrible. Beal horrible, Young worst of all time. Booker and LaVine are horrible so almost all top scorers play bad defense. Harden actually the best defender by far of those 8 guys you can't post him and he has good hands gets tons of steals and blocks.

[Goat Milk]

Simmons can’t shoot and never will be able to. He’s not close to elite. Look what happened in the Toronto series, he got completely exposed and didn’t even run the offense at the end of games. Butler ran the point. Magic worthy and kareem, he wouldn’t have won shit without them because he wasn’t a good shooter. Philadelphia will never win anything paying simmons 35 million a year.

I think Butler was bad for Simmons development. Butler isn't that great of a player. I'll take Simmons over him any day of the week.

Time will tell. I think Tatum will have a better career than Simmons. Tatum doesn`t have to be the #1 defender as long a Jaylen Brown is his team mate.

Simmons is great, but he ain`t no Magic Johnson.

As long as Harden does what he does and doesn`t lead his team to a chip, he belongs alongside my man George Gervin.

Tatum can be better yeah, he has the skill. I'd like to see it though on the other end. That's where teams win rings.

Steph Curry is one of the worst defenders in the NBA the idea the top players are all top defenders is absurd.

Kawhi, Lebron, Giannis, Embiid, Chris Paul (in prime), Wade, Kobe, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Durant, Ducan. List goes on. All these elite players are elite defenders, especially in the playoffs. Curry and Harden feel like an exception. But then again, Harden has never won a ring, Curry only won 2 rings because of Durant, and guys like Tmac or Iverson never won rings either. Steve Nash never won a ring or even got to a finals.

I don't think you understand how good Simmons actually easy. He's almost 7 feet and is one of the fastest players in the league from end to end. Giannis can't shoot at all, either. He's unstoppable.

Simmons is paired with Embiid. To me right now that is the top duo in the NBA after Lebron and Davis. I'll even take Simmons and Embiid over Harden and Westbrook going forward. Two monsters who do it on both ends. Would be a shame to break them up.

[Goat Milk]

Harden is a way better defender than Curry. Plenty of stars weak on defense. Lillard and Doncic are horrible. Beal horrible, Young worst of all time. Booker and LaVine are horrible so almost all top scorers play bad defense. Harden actually the best defender by far of those 8 guys you can't post him and he has good hands gets tons of steals and blocks.

That's true. None of those guys have won anything for a reason. Curry only got 2 rings because of KD, and got the other one because Irving and Love both didn't play in the finals... And he's 0/3 on finals MVPs. Curry would be sitting with 0 rings right now. He's probably an exception based on his good fortune. But see the players I listed above. Some of the best weapons in history on offense, never won anything. I'll add Melo to the list too. Scoring machine, one of the best to ever do it.

[thomorino]

Harden is a way better defender than Curry. Plenty of stars weak on defense. Lillard and Doncic are horrible. Beal horrible, Young worst of all time. Booker and LaVine are horrible so almost all top scorers play bad defense. Harden actually the best defender by far of those 8 guys you can't post him and he has good hands gets tons of steals and blocks.

Agree, Harden is a legit 240 and guard the one through five, their is nowhere to hide curry. Most teams strategy against golden state is to isolate curry on every play. Harden has gotten better defensive the last several years as well.

[thomorino]

I think Butler was bad for Simmons development. Butler isn't that great of a player. I'll take Simmons over him any day of the week.

Tatum can be better yeah, he has the skill. I'd like to see it though on the other end. That's where teams win rings.

Kawhi, Lebron, Giannis, Embiid, Chris Paul (in prime), Wade, Kobe, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Durant, Ducan. List goes on. All these elite players are elite defenders, especially in the playoffs. Curry and Harden feel like an exception. But then again, Harden has never won a ring, Curry only won 2 rings because of Durant, and guys like Tmac or Iverson never won rings either. Steve Nash never won a ring or even got to a finals.

I don't think you understand how good Simmons actually easy. He's almost 7 feet and is one of the fastest players in the league from end to end. Giannis can't shoot at all, either. He's unstoppable.

Simmons is paired with Embiid. To me right now that is the top duo in the NBA after Lebron and Davis. I'll even take Simmons and Embiid over Harden and Westbrook going forward. Two monsters who do it on both ends. Would be a shame to break them up.

Shaq, Bird, and know we’re not good defenders. Shaw was garbage defensively, look what Olajuwon did to him. Shaq didn’t even run the floor to get back on defense consistently until Phil took over.

[rm18]

It is weird Curry's brother is so good on defense even though he is so small and slow.

[Goat Milk]

Shaq, Bird, and know we’re not good defenders. Shaw was garbage defensively, look what Olajuwon did to him. Shaq didn’t even run the floor to get back on defense consistently until Phil took over.

Bro Shaq is one of the best defenders of all time in the years he was with Kobe, and that's the only time he ever won shit. He's lucky to win one when Wade averaged almost 40 a game in the finals.

Shaq and Kobe were the 2 best defenders in the NBA pretty much when they 3 peated.

Bird was a great defender too, not sure what you're talking about. Didn't have the speed of a lebron on d but was tough as hell.

Anyway, point is, you are very unlikely to win a ring if you're the team's best player and you don't play defense. As I said Curry was only the best player on his team for 1 fluke ring he won due to injuries. Durant is one of the best 2 way players in the world, hence why he won 2 rings and might even win more.

Right now Tatum is on a path to becoming more like a Tmac than anything. Still no where near that level offensively though.

[thomorino]

Bro Shaq is one of the best defenders of all time in the years he was with Kobe, and that's the only time he ever won shit. He's lucky to win one when Wade averaged almost 40 a game in the finals.

Shaq and Kobe were the 2 best defenders in the NBA pretty much when they 3 peated.

Bird was a great defender too, not sure what you're talking about. Didn't have the speed of a lebron on d but was tough as hell.

Anyway, point is, you are very unlikely to win a ring if you're the team's best player and you don't play defense. As I said Curry was only the best player on his team for 1 fluke ring he won due to injuries. Durant is one of the best 2 way players in the world, hence why he won 2 rings and might even win more.

Right now Tatum is on a path to becoming more like a Tmac than anything. Still no where near that level offensively though.

The Warriors won 73 games with Curry as their best player. The only reason they lost in the finals was because curry was hurt and the bs suspensions of green, if green doesn’t get suspended, and that suspension was bull, warriors win that series in 5 and that’s with curry on laying on a bad knee. Shaq was never a good defender, he was too slow to guard on the perimeter.

[rm18]

Shaq was a very good defender just maybe not up to his potential. I think Mourning, Deke, Robinson, and Dream all better but Shaq was good should of won DPOY one year with Lakers.

Bird was 6'9 barefoot so basically 6'11 and played the 3. If you are huge for your position that helps like with Simmons. He would be exposed more in todays game but 40 years ago everything was congested no floor spacing.

[Goat Milk]

The Warriors won 73 games with Curry as their best player. The only reason they lost in the finals was because curry was hurt and the bs suspensions of green, if green doesn’t get suspended, and that suspension was bull, warriors win that series in 5 and that’s with curry on laying on a bad knee. Shaq was never a good defender, he was too slow to guard on the perimeter.

Shaq was 7'2 lol. He didn't need to guard on the perimeter. He ate people coming down the lane. I can't believe ppl even think Tim Duncan was a better basketball player than Shaq and Kobe. Don't think I'll ever hear something that dumb for the rest of my days on earth.

[spippen]

Great thread!