1. #1
    KVB
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    KVB's Super Bowl Analysis

    First a couple of posts from the past talking about the anticipated line movement…


    Quote Originally Posted by KVB View Post
    Early forecasts and indications on my end show that many sharp gamblers will be buying Carolina to -6.5 and Over to 46.5.

    While this an excellent ball park figure, there are still other factors to consider. That said, I would expect, by game time, that the lines move from where they are now towards my indications, approaching both 7 and 47…
    Quote Originally Posted by KVB View Post
    I agree, in terms of totals it will take a lot to get the number off of 45 and the next stop really is 47. If big groups are willing to take the Over 45 or they will push to 46.5 and back off at 47.

    In a general sense, not this game, from 45, it will take a significant amount of more money to go through 44.5 and onto 44 than it would to go on to 46.5…
    Quote Originally Posted by KVB View Post
    …could be right about 6, it will take some money to get to 6.5. There are groups still up for buying Carolina at that price.

    Those groups have been patient and helped contribute to the rise to 6 taking so long.

    Win or lose, there are rules that govern buys and sells and computers identifying the triggers.

    This may be the SuperBowl, but to us professionals, it's really just another game. The low line early this week lends credence to those who think Denver wins the game.

    Vegas incited the action and the sharps bought into the early Denver backers. This is similar to stocks, particualrly in the first hour of the morning.

    We used to call it amateur hour…
    For the Super Bowl I have Carolina winning the game with 31 points to Denver’s 20 points. Most forecasts, including unsophisticated lines and more sophisticated measures that tend to go around the block to get next door, have Carolina winning by less with a 3 to 5 point margin. My forecast also differs from most in that I predict a 51 point game. Almost everyone has a 45 point projection.

    It is my belief that the defenses are essentially equal at this moment in time and the difference between the two teams is offensive.

    The line has moved from a very early opener of -3.5 and 4 most places to a current 5.5 after bouncing off of 6 points. Not surprisingly, this line has moved towards my line with enough money to hit 6 points. As this line has climbed, Denver backers have felt they have gotten a better and better deal.

    Truthfully, while 4.5 is better than 4, it doesn’t significantly improve for the underdog until it hits 6. Despite this, those unsophisticated lines of 3 or 5 points along with a certain crop of subjective bettors are still buying Denver.

    In a sense, the rather unsophisticated Denver backers are getting screwed. They sucked up 4 and 4.5 points thinking it was a great deal. Now they are buying 5.5, thinking it is a better deal. It seems at all stops, the Denver spread backer is getting used by a sharper marketplace.

    There appears to be enough underdog support to hold the line at 5.5 but I doubt it closes here. The bookmakers may be trying to get some analysts to second guess their good Carolina number. The reason they second guess is that the book is using certain techniques, aimed at them, to imply an upset is in the marketplace. Books are keeping some groups on their toes.

    Another reason we are at 5.5 has to do with what seems to be a Super Bowl tradition. My information confirms that those who like the underdog are getting the moneyline while those who like the favorite are buying the spread. The moneyline for Denver is over 2-1 in many places. Psychologically, over +200 can seem great but in this case is not a good deal, but with so few knowing that, the books want to prevent raising that moneyline and have to hold back on the spread a little. Further, less than 6 feels like a good buy for the favorite, and is to some.

    It seems the books are welcoming the traditional Super Bowl action. This should be taken into account.

    So whose money is where? The sharps with a plan are on Carolina and have a good price. Unsophisticated forecasters never saw Carolina as a good deal, but can make a case for Denver. The subjective public and everything else out there are pretty split. There are those who like Carolina and those who like the Denver moneyline.

    What else could have stopped the market at 6 and forced it back down to 5.5? As the Carolina playoff dominance fades from the storyline and the topic of hate for Newton arises among the talking heads the underground story of Denver’s redemption and number one defense, which is known to win Super Bowls, is all the rage. Many bettors started taking Denver and the storyline may have triggered some bigger money bets looking for a potential middle or bail out for the favorite.

    Anyone chiming in now likes that underdog while many feel the Carolina value is evaporating (and it has a little). With the memory of a couple of years ago even the most sophisticated bettors know how things like the last Denver Super Bowl tend to even out, if you will. Some of those sophisticated players selling back are additional pressure on Denver.

    I think the oddsmakers passed a candle to the books in which they went from selling Carolina to actually selling the Denver Broncos. Psychologically, first impressions are hard to change and I think those contrarian bettors with a first impression of an upset line are simply emboldened by the storyline this week.

    I bought Carolina to win by 4 points very early in anticipation of the line movement. I am not the only one and from here only a few would buy more Carolina. Yet many would begin to pick up Denver at these levels.

    The Total for the game is at 44.5 in a lot of places. This has moved away from my line of 51. It did take some money to move downward off of 45 but I think this is more perception and has to do with the bettors playing right now. Those seeking Denver will be counting on defense and anticipate a lower scoring game. The drop to 44.5 confirms that Denver type thinking is in the marketplace and I wouldn’t be surprised to see that line move upward again, with sharper money.

    By game time two things could happen. Big final money could set the market and push the line to 6 or 6.5, toward 7 and any late steam will have zero value, a pure gamble on the favorite, a push waiting to happen for the dog and a sucker upset moneyline bet develops. If the line drops it may create steam towards Denver, increasing Denver money.

    Either way, the Denver moneyline looks very risky. In terms of the Total, a drop to 44 would be significant in my book and others may interpret this to be a Denver style game, increasing money on Denver.

    In my opinion, the cat is out of the bag with Denver and I am happy with Carolina -4. My metrics have a strong indication that my moneyline prediction is correct and I would not pick up the Denver moneyline at this point, no matter how sweet of a story it would become. A strong Denver effort in a back door cover would be story enough for the public.

    Of course, such a strong indication on the Carolina moneyline would make the contrarian in me look at Denver.

    It seems like all I’ve been doing finding reasons to by Denver at this point. How does that usually work out?

    Good Luck.

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  2. #2
    FlipsideRM
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    Was waiting to hear from you. Hard to believe Denver can't cover 6 in the Super Bowl in Peyton's last rodeo. I suck at NFL though but the script just seems written already. I think I might buy Denver to 7 and eat the juice with that instead of panthers moneyline.

    Best of luck either way, I plan on making my final decision Sunday while drunk off my ass

  3. #3
    KVB
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlipsideRM View Post
    ...Hard to believe Denver can't cover 6 in the Super Bowl in Peyton's last rodeo...
    Perhaps they can.

    Pittsburgh opened a 3 point favorite over Cinci and won by 2 points, pushing the close. The underdog covered but lost. Denver opened a 5.5 favorite and won by 7, also pushing the close…that line did bounce off of 7.5 though.

    There has been one instance where the underdog covered to the push and one where the favorite covered to the push.

    There no reason why we couldn’t see a pure middle here, pushing some tickets but not the closer.

    The NFL is tight that way.


  4. #4
    Ra77er
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    Wall of text crit for 200mbs *fatality*

    KVB good luck with the Panthers.

  5. #5
    KVB
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    Sorry Ra77er I wanted to paint a picture of what I was seeing and convey it to readers. It wasn't supposed to be so long.


  6. #6
    The Giant
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    KVB, are you an overthinker?

    Just wondering.

    Good luck.

  7. #7
    Ra77er
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    KVB I like your posts and I think I can understand the concepts you are trying to relay.

    The money though is probably in the props. All of you math inclined geniuses will be pricing props using your community college degrees making millions while the rest of us will be trying to desperately make sense of where or who the money is on and what moves appear sharp without any kind of mathematical background.. let alone money management discipline.

    As a fan I am excited for this Sunday and I made my token homer bet already on the Panthers -4.5 and Over like a good square should. Do I snag Denver at 7 and give up my assumed edge? No I'm letting this one ride.

  8. #8
    KVB
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    KVB, are you an overthinker?

    Just wondering.

    Good luck.
    We've been over this The Giant. Every word has multiple meanings and nothing can be left out.

    This is meant to be read over and over again, each time the reader gains new insight. There is something for everyone in here and almost everyone is represented.


  9. #9
    The Giant
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  10. #10
    KVB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra77er View Post
    KVB I like your posts and I think I can understand the concepts you are trying to relay.

    The money though is probably in the props. All of you math inclined geniuses will be pricing props using your community college degrees making millions while the rest of us will be trying to desperately make sense of where or who the money is on and what moves appear sharp without any kind of mathematical background.. let alone money management discipline.

    As a fan I am excited for this Sunday and I made my token homer bet already on the Panthers -4.5 and Over like a good square should. Do I snag Denver at 7 and give up my assumed edge? No I'm letting this one ride.
    The props are probably softer from a EV perspective but it's like that every game. There are so many unconventional props in the Super Bowl that much of it is still speculation. But year after year they talk about how the pro's lick there chops for the huge prop market.

    This will be a well organized game.

    Also, your "square" play of Carolina -4.5 and OVER is consistent with my forecast of 31-20.

    Should be interesting.


  11. #11
    KVB
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    Quote Originally Posted by KVB View Post
    ...It seems like all I’ve been doing IS finding reasons to bUy Denver at this point. How does that usually work out?...
    fixed.



    Money coming in on the UNDER today knocking it to 44. It seems like that would take a lot of money. Perhaps that Denver style of play mentality is showing in the marketplace.

    The books could be making a move of their own here, in an effort to incite more action.

    We should see a bounce of of 44 from some meaningful market moving money. Let's see if they bite.

    Last edited by KVB; 02-03-16 at 06:30 PM.

  12. #12
    jjgold
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    KVB flip a coin

    So much easier and just as effective

    Good write ups though

  13. #13
    KVB
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    Quote Originally Posted by KVB View Post
    ...By game time two things could happen. Big final money could set the market and push the line to 6 or 6.5, toward 7 and any late steam will have zero value, a pure gamble on the favorite...
    Remember JJ, this is a marathon, not a sprint. If the line gets to a point like I said above, then flipping a coin is what is happening to the pointspread bettor.

    My projection of 31-20 is far, far more effective over the long haul than flipping a coin. That will never change, you can count on it. For any particular game, my projections represent a weighted coin for sure.


  14. #14
    importmoon
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    If you bet the fav always take the under... vice versa if you take the dog you have to take the over... rule of thumb...don't ask and don't tell

  15. #15
    brooks85
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    lol boatload of conjecture in there, too much to keep track of.

  16. #16
    reigle9
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    Saw some newsletters with about a 10pt Car win as well.

  17. #17
    KVB
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    Quote Originally Posted by brooks85 View Post
    lol boatload of conjecture in there, too much to keep track of.
    Some, yes, and it's obvious where I am anticipating movement that hasn't happened yet and giving both scenarios.

    But what you think is conjecture, not so much brooks, it's just a testament to your level of understanding. Now you have an ego and like to think you know everything but I assure you, based on your post, you do not.

    I don't know how much you know is wrong, like many gamblers, but I do know you don't know things.

    Quote Originally Posted by KVB View Post
    ...Truthfully, if 1000 people read this shit then maybe 10 will be able to learn and then act in any meaningful way with this information. Of those maybe 10, I promise that less than 1 will be able to survive the first market shakeout. Combine the market itself with all the other reasons why bettors lose and even the most astute have a long way to go. I can only offer to cut the learning curve a bit for some of you but the first step is understanding what's happening here....
    Now you'll take this personally but it's really a general statement to which you may very well fit. I could be wrong, but I believe I know where you fit in that post above.

    A guy who can't keep track, with an ego like yours and lacks an understanding has little chance in these markets. One obstacle to bettors face is that they are unwilling to learn.

    The end result of Super Bowl makes no difference but those of us who win thank you for your contribution to the marketplace.


    Good Luck


  18. #18
    brooks85
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    Quote Originally Posted by KVB View Post
    Some, yes, and it's obvious where I am anticipating movement that hasn't happened yet and giving both scenarios.

    But what you think is conjecture, not so much brooks, it's just a testament to your level of understanding. Now you have an ego and like to think you know everything but I assure you, based on your post, you do not.

    I don't know how much you know is wrong, like many gamblers, but I do know you don't know things.



    Now you'll take this personally but it's really a general statement to which you may very well fit. I could be wrong, but I believe I know where you fit in that post above.

    A guy who can't keep track, with an ego like yours and lacks an understanding has little chance in these markets. One obstacle to bettors face is that they are unwilling to learn.

    The end result of Super Bowl makes no difference but those of us who win thank you for your contribution to the marketplace.


    Good Luck
    no, it's conjecture that is why I said it. I'm a simple man.

  19. #19
    KVB
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    Quote Originally Posted by reigle9 View Post
    Saw some newsletters with about a 10pt Car win as well.
    If my line were a 10 point win, say 30-20 then I would stop buying at 5.5 and not pick up 6 or 6.5. Seems a bit like the market now.

    But with the 11 point margin, 1 point off of the 10, most professionals would make a case for buying to 6.5 and not pick up 7.

    This is why I didn't agree with a 7 or even 7.5 point line the some Denver hopefuls were waiting to get. There's just not going to be enough money to get it there. If they want it, they will be paying for it.


  20. #20
    KVB
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    Quote Originally Posted by brooks85 View Post
    no, it's conjecture that is why I said it. I'm a simple man.
    Of course. My mistake, simple man.

    My last piece of advice for you would be not to go around the block to get next door.


  21. #21
    brooks85
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    Quote Originally Posted by KVB View Post
    Of course. My mistake, simple man.

    My last piece of advice for you would be not to go around the block to get next door.

    why, is there a library over there?
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  22. #22
    KVB
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  23. #23
    KVB
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    Quote Originally Posted by brooks85 View Post
    no, it's conjecture that is why I said it. I'm a simple man.
    You don't know what you don't know and I know what you don't know and you don't know what I know.

    And that's why I know where you fit among the sheeple.


  24. #24
    brooks85
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    Quote Originally Posted by KVB View Post
    You don't know what you don't know and I know what you don't know and you don't know what I know.

    And that's why I know where you fit among the sheeple.




    you're right, I don't know about illiteracy. Let me offer a piece of advice if you ever do venture around the block and pass the library on your way to next door... take a step inside one day. Just make sure you pay attention to which way the door opens.
    Last edited by brooks85; 02-05-16 at 03:51 PM.

  25. #25
    POOLSIDE
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    Man, this thread really is a trash can

  26. #26
    KVB
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    brooks you're too easy.

  27. #27
    unde0087
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    It's a good read, good work

  28. #28
    stuiees
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    Good read. So you think Denver backers should wait it out a little longer? Squeeze another point out of the line?

  29. #29
    TwoWays
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    Guys, I remember fading this guy in CFL. It's easy money. Just my humble opinion.

  30. #30
    KVB
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuiees View Post
    Good read. So you think Denver backers should wait it out a little longer? Squeeze another point out of the line?
    I think market moving money and thinking pushed that line through 4 and 4.5 and the rest of the players pushed it higher. If the books wanted to show that big money in total, it might be on 6 already. There is obviously some support at 6 but I think the books are sitting at 5.5 for a reason. They have been getting more money on Denver more recently and are using it as excuse to hold here.

    It seems to me, and this is conjecture...lol...that the line will shift higher by game time, not lower, reflecting more of the reality of the marketplace.

    If this is true, then I think Carolina may win and not cover even the early -3.5...of course that last sentence is conjecture.


  31. #31
    KVB
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoWays View Post
    Guys, I remember fading this guy in CFL. It's easy money. Just my humble opinion.


    An easier CFL market and twoways lost his ass while winners were handed out to him.

    Only TwoWays, only TwoWays.

  32. #32
    KVB
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    There appears to be pressure on Denver driving the line from 5.5 to 5 in some places.

    This is not a significant move against the spread bet and any books shifting from 5.5 to 5 are likely protecting the upset moneyline, which is getting bet quite a bit.

    Houses could move this to 4.5 and the condition would still be the same; it is not market moving money. The bookmakers often use these strategies to generate more action on the game.

    The condition for this game exists, for the most part, because public Denver backers simply prefer the upset. There is also action generating motivations here, but that’s for another time.


  33. #33
    KVB
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    Quote Originally Posted by brooks85 View Post
    you're right, I don't know about illiteracy...
    You are a poor troll. This isn't water cooler dumbed down American political talk. This is a real man's game where the strong take from the weak.

    I've noticed that when you are outmatched you simply resort to changing the subject to grammar nazi or just hurl unjustified insults, it happens in the political threads more than you'd like.

    It can't be more obvious you don't understand the markets than in this thread, attacking KVB over literacy. How laughable is that?

    It doesn't work when you play with the big boys brooksy, go back to the water cooler.


  34. #34
    Antibet
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    Are you trying to say it's Carolina and OVER? This sure sounds like an overanalysis. Let me give you an example: is this statement true?

    Jjgold's only chance to get laid is to marry a fat chick or hire a hooker, because his pipiska is only 2.5 inches long

    We all know, including jjgold himself, that it's true. You can measure his pecker hundreds of times in different positions, you can look at it from all possible angles, with good outdoor lighting and in some dark places, you can even twist it or pull it - it's not going to change anything...

    it will remain as tiny as it is, and the statement in bold above will always be true.
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  35. #35
    KVB
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    Nice angle Antibet, I can appreciate that...

    I don't think my prediction of OVER is a very strong one here. In the end, the strongest indication I have for the price is Carolina to win...

    Quote Originally Posted by KVB View Post
    ...In my opinion, the cat is out of the bag with Denver and I am happy with Carolina -4. My metrics have a strong indication that my moneyline prediction is correct and I would not pick up the Denver moneyline at this point, no matter how sweet of a story it would become. A strong Denver effort in a back door cover would be story enough for the public...
    Like I said, I have Carolina -4 and am thus far holding here. I do not have a bet on the OVER.

    This is an analysis of what market money is where and, in part, why the line is where it is and is doing what it is doing. I left out a lot of details including how I know which groups are where as well as some of the previous bookmaking techniques used to steer the bettors.

    For educational purposes this could have been much longer and is by no means an over analysis for this topic. I fell I barely scratched the surface.


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