1. #176
    losturmarbles
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mar View Post
    Yes I do. Only thing that keeps us civilized.
    karl marx would agree with you.

    unfortunately, you're both completely wrong.

    the only thing that keeps us civilized is the law. using government to subvert the law by plundering from one individual to give to another is not civilized, it's tyranny.

    read my sig:
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."
    Frederic Bastiat

  2. #177
    big0mar
    SINGLE-DECK BLACKJACK
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    Quote Originally Posted by losturmarbles View Post
    karl marx would agree with you. unfortunately, you're both completely wrong. the only thing that keeps us civilized is the law. using government to subvert the law by plundering from one individual to give to another is not civilized, it's tyranny. read my sig: "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."
    Frederic Bastia
    Good luck using anecdotal quotes to try to solve real world problems.

    The fact of the matter is, the USA has been socialist ever since its inception. We have socialized schools, hospitals, fire stations, and the biggest industry in the entire world - defense - is socialized.

    But if you can find me one country that has ever survived without any form of socialization, please get back to me.

  3. #178
    losturmarbles
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mar View Post
    I got 100 betpoints that says the final bill has no public option.
    why would I bet a lose/lose proposition?

  4. #179
    losturmarbles
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mar View Post
    Good luck using anecdotal quotes to try to solve real world problems.

    The fact of the matter is, the USA has been socialist ever since its inception. We have socialized schools, hospitals, fire stations, and the biggest industry in the entire world - defense - is socialized.

    But if you can find me one country that has ever survived without any form of socialization, please get back to me.
    anecdotal huh? you really shouldn't use words you don't know the meaning of.
    here's some more "anecdotal" quotes for ya:

    "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

    "What experience and history teach is this -- that people and governments never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles."

    "We learn from history that we learn nothing from history."


    The fact of the matter is you don't know what a fact is. the US didn't become a socialist country until it passed an income tax in 1861 to fund the war (ironic since the war was about federal expansion of power). it was a temporary tax only lasting about 4 years. but they brought it back at a time of peace in 1894 and the supreme court ruled a tax on income was unconstitutional. but of course they got around it being unconstitutional by just adding an amendment to the constitution in 1913. and every expansion of government since then, that has been done out of the pretext of serving the greater good, has done nothing but cause more harm to those it claims to be helping.

  5. #180
    Chuck Sims
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    The healthcare bill is unconstitutional on many grounds.

    Making law that makes states pay another state for medicaid? WTF is that? Thats definitely unconstitutional.

    The govn't making law that says buy health insurance from a private health company or go to jail . Again, unconstitutional.

    Making law that says the bill cannot be changed by another congress. That kind of law requires 2/3 vote.

    This bill even if it is passed and signed into law, will be tied up in the courts for years.

  6. #181
    reno cool
    the meaning of harm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Sims View Post
    The healthcare bill is unconstitutional on many grounds.

    Making law that makes states pay another state for medicaid? WTF is that? Thats definitely unconstitutional.

    The govn't making law that says buy health insurance from a private health company or go to jail . Again, unconstitutional.

    Making law that says the bill cannot be changed by another congress. That kind of law requires 2/3 vote.

    This bill even if it is passed and signed into law, will be tied up in the courts for years.

    That's ridiculous. I wonder who benefits once again. These bastards have no shame. I'm all for providing medicine for everyone who needs it, but it's obvious from this that no one in government or business gives a flying shit about the public. Their only interest in the masses is how to fleece the public as much as possible.

  7. #182
    Mr KLC
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    Quote Originally Posted by andywend View Post
    Hello Dwight,
    Someone from the republican party needs to put the democrats on record regarding this socialized health care legislation.

    They need to go on the public airwaves and ask Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama the following question:

    Will you promise the American people you will NOT exempt yourselves and your families from this legislation?

    Of course, these lying hypocrite bastard democrats will try and skirt around the question without answering it so its important the pressure is kept on them.

    It then should be said that if this wonderful plan is good enough for American citizens, then it should be good enough for you and your family?

    If enough pressure is put on these filthy bastard democrats, perhaps they might rethink what they are doing as you know they have no plans of subjecting their loved ones to the low quality medical care their plan is sure to provide.
    Arlen Specter was asked this question a few months ago, and he answered it by saying that all of the politicians will have the same plan, trying half heartingly to make it sound like it will be the same plan as the people, but actually meaning that the Congress will all have their own plan.

    As far as the congressmen changing their mind about this plan, it'll never happen. The only way for a House/Senate compromise bill not to pass is if enough House democrats go against the Senate bill because there is no public option.

  8. #183
    nobull
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    Boogedy Boogedy!

  9. #184
    Chuck Sims
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    This Obamacare bill has an exemption for all of Congress not to be a part of it. Nice. At least they know this bill is crap.

  10. #185
    Cappy
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    I've heard good things for the most part. Not perfect, but a definite improvement

  11. #186
    DwightShrute
    I don't believe you ... please continue
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    While trying to escape through Pakistan , Osama Bin Laden found a bottle on the sand and picked it up.

    Suddenly, a female genie rose from the bottle and with a smile said, "Master, may I grant you one wish?"

    Osama responded," You ignorant, unworthy daughter-of-a-dog! Don't you know who I am? I don't need any
    common woman giving me anything."

    The shocked genie said, "Please, I must grant you a wish or I will be returned to that bottle forever."

    Osama thought a moment, then grumbled about the impertinence of the woman and said, "Very well, I want to awaken in the morning with three American women in my bed. So just do it and be off with you.

    The annoyed genie said, "So be it!" and disappeared.


    The next morning Bin Laden woke up in bed with Lorena Bobbitt, Tonya Harding and Nancy Pelosi at his side.His penis was gone, his knees were broken, and he had no health insurance.

    God is good
    .

  12. #187
    Mr KLC
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    Quote Originally Posted by DwightShrute View Post
    While trying to escape through Pakistan , Osama Bin Laden found a bottle on the sand and picked it up.

    Suddenly, a female genie rose from the bottle and with a smile said, "Master, may I grant you one wish?"

    Osama responded," You ignorant, unworthy daughter-of-a-dog! Don't you know who I am? I don't need any
    common woman giving me anything."

    The shocked genie said, "Please, I must grant you a wish or I will be returned to that bottle forever."

    Osama thought a moment, then grumbled about the impertinence of the woman and said, "Very well, I want to awaken in the morning with three American women in my bed. So just do it and be off with you.

    The annoyed genie said, "So be it!" and disappeared.


    The next morning Bin Laden woke up in bed with Lorena Bobbitt, Tonya Harding and Nancy Pelosi at his side.His penis was gone, his knees were broken, and he had no health insurance.

    God is good
    .
    LOL!!!

  13. #188
    dimewinner
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    Just another opportunity for insurance companies to get wealthier...

  14. #189
    porterkid69
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    A email I received

    For those who support the senate health care bill this is the take of a doctor who actually read the bill, unlike those who voted on it.


    An Indianapolis doctor's letter to Sen. Bayh about the Bill (Note: Dr. Stephen E.. Frazer, MD practices as an anesthesiologist in Indianapolis , IN )

    Senator Bayh,

    As a practicing physician I have major concerns with the health care bill before Congress. I actually have read the bill and am shocked by the brazenness of the government's proposed involvement in the patient-physician relationship. The very idea that the government will dictate and ration patient care is dangerous and certainly not helpful in designing a health care system that works for all. Every physician I work with agrees that we need to fix our health care system, but the proposed bills currently making their way through congress will be a disaster if passed.

    I ask you respectfully and as a patriotic American to look at the following troubling lines that I have read in the bill. You cannot possibly believe that these proposals are in the best interests of the country and our fellow citizens.

    Page 22 of the HC Bill: Mandates that the Govt will audit books of all employers that self-insure!!

    Page 30 Sec 123 of HC Bill: THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get.

    Page 29 lines 4-16 in the HC Bill: YOUR HEALTH CARE IS RATIONED!!!

    Page 42 of HC Bill: The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC benefits for you. You have no choice!

    Page 50 Section 152 in HC Bill: HC will be provided to ALL non-US citizens, illegal or otherwise.

    Page 58 HC Bill: Govt will have real-time access to individuals' finances & a 'National ID Health card' will be issued!

    Page 59 HC Bill lines 21-24: Govt will have direct access to your bank accounts for elective funds transfer.

    Page 65 Sec 164: Is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions & community organizations: (ACORN).

    Page 84 Sec 203 HC Bill: Govt mandates ALL benefit packages for private HC plans in the 'Exchange.'

    Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels for Plans -- The Govt will ration your health care!

    Page 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill: Govt mandates linguistic appropriate services. (Translation: illegal aliens.)

    Page 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18: The Govt will use groups (i.e. ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Govt HC plan.

    Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels for Plans. (AARP members - your health care WILL be rationed!)

    Page 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill: Medicaid eligible individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. (No choice.)

    Page 12 4 lines 24-25 HC Bill: No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt monopoly.

    Page 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill: Doctors/ American Medical Association - The Govt will tell YOU what salary you can make.

    Page 145 Line 15-17 HC Bill: An Employer MUST auto-enroll employees into public option plan. (NO choice!)

    Page 126 Lines 22-25 HC Bill: Employers MUST pay for HC for part-time employees AND their families. (Employees shouldn't get excited about this as employers will be forced to reduce its work force, benefits, and wages/salaries to cover such a huge expense..)

    Page 149 Lines 16-24 HC Bill: ANY Employer with payroll 401k & above who does not provide public option will pay 8% tax on all payroll! (See the last comment in parenthesis.)

    Page 150 Lines 9-13 HC Bill: A business with payroll between $251K & $401K who doesn't provide public option will pay 2-6% tax on all payroll.

    Page 167 Lines 18-23 HC Bill: ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable HC according to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income.

    Page 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill: Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay.)

    Page 195 HC Bill: Officers & employees of the GOVT HC Admin... will have access to ALL Americans' finances and personal records.

    Page 203 Line 14-15 HC Bill: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." (Yes, it really says that!)

    Page 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill: Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid Seniors.. (Low-income and the poor are affected.)

    Page 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill: Doctors: It doesn't matter what specialty you have trained yourself in -- you will all be paid the same! (Just TRY to tell me that's not Socialism!)

    Page 253 Line 10-18 HC Bill: The Govt sets the value of a doctor's time, profession, judgment, etc. (Literally-- the value of humans.)

    Page 265 Sec 1131 HC Bill: The Govt mandates and controls productivity for "private" HC industries.

    Page 268 Sec 1141 HC Bill: The federal Govt regulates the rental and purchase of power driven wheelchairs.

    Page 272 SEC. 1145 HC Bill: TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!

    Page 280 Sec 1151 HC Bill: The Govt will penalize hospitals for whatever the Govt deems preventable (i.e....re-admissions).

    Page 298 Lines 9-11 HC Bill: Doctors: If you treat a patient during initial admission that results in a re-admission -- the Govt will penalize you.

    Page 317 L 13-20 HC Bill: PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. (The Govt tells doctors what and how much they can own!)

    Page 317-318 lines 21-25, 1-3 HC Bill: PROHIBITION on expansion. (The Govt is mandating that hospitals cannot expand.)

    Page 321 2-13 HC Bill: Hospitals have the opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input is required. (Can you say ACORN?)

    Page 335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 HC Bill: The Govt mandates establishment of=2 outcome-based measures. (HC the way they want -- rationing.)

    Page 341 Lines 3-9 HC Bill: The Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advance Plans, HMOs, etc. (Forcing people into the Govt plan)

    Page 354 Sec 1177 HC Bill: The Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of 'special needs people!' Unbelievable!

    Page 379 Sec 1191 HC Bill: The Govt creates more bureaucracy via a "Tele-Health Advisory Committee." (Can you say HC by phone?)

    Page 425 Lines 4-12: HC Bill: The Govt mandates "Advance-Care Planning Consult." (Think senior citizens end-of-life patients.)

    Page 425 Lines 17-19 HC Bill: The Govt will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. (And it's mandatory!)

    Page 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 HC Bill: The Govt provides an "approved" list of end-of-life resources; & nbsp; guiding you in death. (Also called 'assisted suicide.')

    Page 427 Lines 15-24 HC Bill: The Govt mandates a program for orders on "end-of-life." (The Govt has a say in how your life ends!)

    Page 429 Lines 1-9 HC Bill: An "advanced-care planning consultant" will be used frequently as a patient's health deteriorates.

    Page 429 Lines 10-12 HC Bill: An "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. (AN ORDER TO DIE FROM THE GOVERNMENT?!?)

    Page 429 Lines 13-25 HC Bill: The GOVT will specify which doctors can write an end-of-life order. (I wouldn't want to stand before God after getting paid for THAT job!)

    Page 430 Lines 11-15 HC Bill: The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end-of-life! (Again -- no choice!)

    Page 469 HC Bill: Community-Based Home Medical Services = Non-Profit Organizations. (Hello? ACORN Medical Services here!?!)

    Page 489 Sec 1308 HC Bill: The Govt will cover marriage and family therapy.. (Which means Govt will insert itself into your marriage even.)

    Page 494-498 HC Bill: Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, and rationing those services.

    Senator, I guarantee that I personally will do everything possible to inform patients and my fellow physicians about the dangers of the proposed bills you and your colleagues are debating.

    Furthermore, if you vote for a bill that enforces socialized medicine on the country and destroys the doctor-patient relationship, I will do everything in my power to make sure you lose your job in the next election.

    Respectfully,

    Stephen E. Fraser, MD


    Dear Reader,
    I urge you to use the power that you were born with (and the power that may soon be taken away) and circulate this email to as many people as you can reach. The Power of the People can stop this from happening to us, our parents, our grandparents, our children, and to following generations.

    This is CRAZY. God help us all.

  15. #190
    daggerkobe
    UCONN PK MICH PK PROVIDENCE +2
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    Join Date: 03-25-08
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    Quote Originally Posted by porterkid69 View Post
    A email I received

    For those who support the senate health care bill this is the take of a doctor who actually read the bill, unlike those who voted on it.


    An Indianapolis doctor's letter to Sen. Bayh about the Bill (Note: Dr. Stephen E.. Frazer, MD practices as an anesthesiologist in Indianapolis , IN )

    Senator Bayh,

    As a practicing physician I have major concerns with the health care bill before Congress. I actually have read the bill and am shocked by the brazenness of the government's proposed involvement in the patient-physician relationship. The very idea that the government will dictate and ration patient care is dangerous and certainly not helpful in designing a health care system that works for all. Every physician I work with agrees that we need to fix our health care system, but the proposed bills currently making their way through congress will be a disaster if passed.

    I ask you respectfully and as a patriotic American to look at the following troubling lines that I have read in the bill. You cannot possibly believe that these proposals are in the best interests of the country and our fellow citizens.

    Page 22 of the HC Bill: Mandates that the Govt will audit books of all employers that self-insure!!

    Page 30 Sec 123 of HC Bill: THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get.

    Page 29 lines 4-16 in the HC Bill: YOUR HEALTH CARE IS RATIONED!!!

    Page 42 of HC Bill: The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC benefits for you. You have no choice!

    Page 50 Section 152 in HC Bill: HC will be provided to ALL non-US citizens, illegal or otherwise.

    Page 58 HC Bill: Govt will have real-time access to individuals' finances & a 'National ID Health card' will be issued!

    Page 59 HC Bill lines 21-24: Govt will have direct access to your bank accounts for elective funds transfer.

    Page 65 Sec 164: Is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions & community organizations: (ACORN).

    Page 84 Sec 203 HC Bill: Govt mandates ALL benefit packages for private HC plans in the 'Exchange.'

    Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels for Plans -- The Govt will ration your health care!

    Page 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill: Govt mandates linguistic appropriate services. (Translation: illegal aliens.)

    Page 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18: The Govt will use groups (i.e. ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Govt HC plan.

    Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels for Plans. (AARP members - your health care WILL be rationed!)

    Page 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill: Medicaid eligible individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. (No choice.)

    Page 12 4 lines 24-25 HC Bill: No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt monopoly.

    Page 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill: Doctors/ American Medical Association - The Govt will tell YOU what salary you can make.

    Page 145 Line 15-17 HC Bill: An Employer MUST auto-enroll employees into public option plan. (NO choice!)

    Page 126 Lines 22-25 HC Bill: Employers MUST pay for HC for part-time employees AND their families. (Employees shouldn't get excited about this as employers will be forced to reduce its work force, benefits, and wages/salaries to cover such a huge expense..)

    Page 149 Lines 16-24 HC Bill: ANY Employer with payroll 401k & above who does not provide public option will pay 8% tax on all payroll! (See the last comment in parenthesis.)

    Page 150 Lines 9-13 HC Bill: A business with payroll between $251K & $401K who doesn't provide public option will pay 2-6% tax on all payroll.

    Page 167 Lines 18-23 HC Bill: ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable HC according to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income.

    Page 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill: Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay.)

    Page 195 HC Bill: Officers & employees of the GOVT HC Admin... will have access to ALL Americans' finances and personal records.

    Page 203 Line 14-15 HC Bill: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." (Yes, it really says that!)

    Page 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill: Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid Seniors.. (Low-income and the poor are affected.)

    Page 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill: Doctors: It doesn't matter what specialty you have trained yourself in -- you will all be paid the same! (Just TRY to tell me that's not Socialism!)

    Page 253 Line 10-18 HC Bill: The Govt sets the value of a doctor's time, profession, judgment, etc. (Literally-- the value of humans.)

    Page 265 Sec 1131 HC Bill: The Govt mandates and controls productivity for "private" HC industries.

    Page 268 Sec 1141 HC Bill: The federal Govt regulates the rental and purchase of power driven wheelchairs.

    Page 272 SEC. 1145 HC Bill: TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!

    Page 280 Sec 1151 HC Bill: The Govt will penalize hospitals for whatever the Govt deems preventable (i.e....re-admissions).

    Page 298 Lines 9-11 HC Bill: Doctors: If you treat a patient during initial admission that results in a re-admission -- the Govt will penalize you.

    Page 317 L 13-20 HC Bill: PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. (The Govt tells doctors what and how much they can own!)

    Page 317-318 lines 21-25, 1-3 HC Bill: PROHIBITION on expansion. (The Govt is mandating that hospitals cannot expand.)

    Page 321 2-13 HC Bill: Hospitals have the opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input is required. (Can you say ACORN?)

    Page 335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 HC Bill: The Govt mandates establishment of=2 outcome-based measures. (HC the way they want -- rationing.)

    Page 341 Lines 3-9 HC Bill: The Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advance Plans, HMOs, etc. (Forcing people into the Govt plan)

    Page 354 Sec 1177 HC Bill: The Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of 'special needs people!' Unbelievable!

    Page 379 Sec 1191 HC Bill: The Govt creates more bureaucracy via a "Tele-Health Advisory Committee." (Can you say HC by phone?)

    Page 425 Lines 4-12: HC Bill: The Govt mandates "Advance-Care Planning Consult." (Think senior citizens end-of-life patients.)

    Page 425 Lines 17-19 HC Bill: The Govt will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. (And it's mandatory!)

    Page 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 HC Bill: The Govt provides an "approved" list of end-of-life resources; & nbsp; guiding you in death. (Also called 'assisted suicide.')

    Page 427 Lines 15-24 HC Bill: The Govt mandates a program for orders on "end-of-life." (The Govt has a say in how your life ends!)

    Page 429 Lines 1-9 HC Bill: An "advanced-care planning consultant" will be used frequently as a patient's health deteriorates.

    Page 429 Lines 10-12 HC Bill: An "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. (AN ORDER TO DIE FROM THE GOVERNMENT?!?)

    Page 429 Lines 13-25 HC Bill: The GOVT will specify which doctors can write an end-of-life order. (I wouldn't want to stand before God after getting paid for THAT job!)

    Page 430 Lines 11-15 HC Bill: The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end-of-life! (Again -- no choice!)

    Page 469 HC Bill: Community-Based Home Medical Services = Non-Profit Organizations. (Hello? ACORN Medical Services here!?!)

    Page 489 Sec 1308 HC Bill: The Govt will cover marriage and family therapy.. (Which means Govt will insert itself into your marriage even.)

    Page 494-498 HC Bill: Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, and rationing those services.

    Senator, I guarantee that I personally will do everything possible to inform patients and my fellow physicians about the dangers of the proposed bills you and your colleagues are debating.

    Furthermore, if you vote for a bill that enforces socialized medicine on the country and destroys the doctor-patient relationship, I will do everything in my power to make sure you lose your job in the next election.

    Respectfully,

    Stephen E. Fraser, MD


    Dear Reader,
    I urge you to use the power that you were born with (and the power that may soon be taken away) and circulate this email to as many people as you can reach. The Power of the People can stop this from happening to us, our parents, our grandparents, our children, and to following generations.

    This is CRAZY. God help us all.

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/frazer.asp


  16. #191
    jw
    jw's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 10-25-09
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    Betpoints: 4576

    I counter your copy/paste bullshit with my own copy/paste bullshit ...

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-needs-check-/

  17. #192
    daggerkobe
    UCONN PK MICH PK PROVIDENCE +2
    daggerkobe's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 03-25-08
    Posts: 10,744

    Amazing how many neo-nitwits automatically believe chain letters as fact.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-needs-check-/


    Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure! False: Section 113 of the bill requires the Health Choices commissioner to conduct a study to make sure health reform does not unintentionally create incentives for businesses to self-insure or create adverse selection in the risk pools of insured plans. There is no mandated audit.

    Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed! False: Section 122 outlines broad categories of benefits that must be included in an essential benefits package. It prohibits cost-sharing for preventive care and limits annual out-of-pocket spending to $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a family, indexed for inflation. It says nothing about rationing or limiting treatment.

    Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
    Barely True: Section 123 establishes a Health Benefits Advisory Committee that makes recommendations on what types of health insurance coverage will be defined as basic, enhanced or premium. The committee will be chaired by the surgeon general, with members appointed by the president, the comptroller general, and representatives of federal agencies. This committee makes recommendations on insurance regulations, so in that sense it does set standards for benefits. But it does not make decisions about treatments for individuals.

    Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
    Pants on Fire!: Section 142 outlines the duties of the Health Choices commissioner, who is charged with regulating insurers. The commissioner should seek insurers to offer different types of insurance, including basic, enhanced and premium. Individuals will be able to choose among competing insurers who are regulated via the exchange.

    Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free health care services.
    Pants on Fire! Section 152 includes a generic nondiscrimination clause, which says insurers may not discriminate with regard to "personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services." It says nothing about "non-US citizens" or immigrants, legal or otherwise. In fact, the legislation specifically states that undocumented aliens will not be eligible for credits to help them buy health insurance, in Section 246 on page 143.

    Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard. Barely True: Section 163 sets out goals for electronic health records. It says one goal should be real-time confirmation of which services a person qualifies for and how much they will have to pay. That could be achieved by machine-readable beneficiary cards, according to the legislative language. But the legislation does not require the cards.

    Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer. Barely True: Section 163 sets out goals for electronic health records. One of the goals is to include features that "enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation" between payment and billing. The legislative summary says the intent in the section is "to adopt standards for typical transactions" between insurance companies and health care providers. The legislation generically describes typical electronic banking transactions and does not outline any special access privileges.

    Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN) . Pants on Fire! Section 164 creates a temporary reinsurance program to help employers or employee associations pay for coverage for workers ages 55 to 64. It does not mention labor unions or community organizer groups, though presumably they could qualify for subsidies like any other employee association that previously offered health insurance. The section's point, however, is to offer subsidies to employer-based insurance programs, not unions or community organizers.

    Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange. True. Private health care plans must conform to government rules to participate in the exchange, and this page begins an explanation of exchange rules. However, the requirement that insurance companies must conform to is also presented much earlier in the bill. We spotted an earlier reference on page 15, Section 101.

    Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans) . Mostly True. Section 203 sets rules saying that plans must offer basic plans before they can offer plans with extra benefits. These extra benefits are defined as enhanced plans and premium plans. (The unstated assumption here is that enhanced and premium plans will be more profitable for the insurance companies.) But this isn't the page number that requires health plans to participate in the exchange. Technically speaking, private insurance plans are not required to participate. Rather, only insurance sold on the exchange will satisfy the mandate that people have health insurance. In effect, private health plans that want to sell to individuals will have to sell through the exchange, under the terms of the bill.

    Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens. Half True. Section 204 outlines more regulations for health insurance plans in the exchange. One of the requirements is that they provide "culturally and linguistically appropriate communication and health services." Another part of the bill mentions that this includes "effective methods for communicating in plain language." There is no mention of citizenship status.

    Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
    False. Section 205 says the Health Choices commissioner is charged with publicizing the options on the health care exchange. The legislation says the commissioner "may work with other appropriate entities to facilitate the dissemination of information." The bill does not mention ACORN or Americorps. The bill also says that the commissioner must publicize the "Exchange-participating health benefits plan options," which would include private insurance plans.

    Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter. False. This page describes people who would qualify for Medicaid, a government insurance program for people with very low incomes. It says that individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid only if they have "not elected to enroll in an Exchange-participating health benefits plan." So the auto-enrollment only happens if they have not chosen another plan.

    Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed. Barely True. Section 223 discusses how the government will pay doctors under the public option health insurance; they will pay 5 percent more than Medicare pays. It's true that this section does not set out any sort of judicial review, but it specifically states that health care providers do not have to accept patients under the public option. The bill also says that the Health Choices commissioner has the authority "to correct for payments that are excessive or deficient," taking into account "amounts paid for similar health care providers and services under other Exchange-participating health benefits plans." There may be a broader case to be made that the government can outcompete private insurers through the public option, but this section of the plan doesn't have to do with lawsuits or judicial review.

    Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages. Barely True. Section 225 discusses payments for physicians who choose to accept the public option insurance. Again, there may be a broader case to be made that the government can outcompete private insurers through the public option, but this section of the plan only applies to payments to doctors for patients who are part of the public option. The government does not set wages for doctors because doctors are free to decline to see the patients. Finally, a few words about the e-mail's origins. It appears that someone out there based it on the work of Peter Fleckenstein, who publishes commentary on the Twitter messaging service under the name Fleckman . (Some of the e-mails we receive credit him, but many do not.) Fleckenstein strongly opposes the Democratic health plan and labels most of his posts #tcot , which stands for "top conservatives on Twitter." Fleckenstein has also posted the analysis at his blog, Common Sense from a Common Man . Many of the e-mails we received have made changes to Fleckenstein's original tweets, and the e-mail we've checked here has made changes as well.

  18. #193
    Housemoney
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    I am a silent partner in a restaurant in Myrtle Beach, SC. The employer mandates in both Senate and House bills are what have us concerned. It is already tough for small business owners. My partner will be forced to close shop when this goes into effect, laying off 30+ employees. Everyone of them would rather have a job than insurance. The asst. manager is a raging liberal. It will be interesting to see how she reacts when her politics affect her directly.

    I imagine many small business owners are in similar situations.

  19. #194
    porterkid69
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    This is off the subject, but thought it was funny.

    AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR


    Last night I was talking to a young, good looking woman.




    She asked me if I liked breasts or legs.





    I told her what I really liked was a shaved snatch.





    Apparently I'm not welcome back at KFC.













    Last edited by SBR Jonelyn; 06-17-15 at 11:41 AM. Reason: image does not exist

  20. #195
    Chuck Sims
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    This crap bill that Congress voted to exempt themselves from is losing support by the day. The only people that are still in favor of it are mindless Democrat voters.

  21. #196
    Carseller4
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    Hopefully Massachusetts steps up and puts a Republican in Teddy (Swimmer) Kennedy's old seat. That would either kill the bill, or make the Democrats bribe a weak Republican to vote for it.

  22. #197
    losturmarbles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carseller4 View Post
    Hopefully Massachusetts steps up and puts a Republican in Teddy (Swimmer) Kennedy's old seat. That would either kill the bill, or make the Democrats bribe a weak Republican to vote for it.
    the fact that the race is now so tight (in massachusetts no less!) is a clear sign that people are fed up with the democrat leadership in congress. republicans are going to come out huge in november's elections.

  23. #198
    Carseller4
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    Quote Originally Posted by daggerkobe View Post
    You do realize that Snopes founders are huge Obama donors, don't you?

    Which effectively renders Snopes opinions on Obama and his detractors utterly useless.

  24. #199
    DrStale
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carseller4 View Post
    You do realize that Snopes founders are huge Obama donors, don't you? Which effectively renders Snopes opinions on Obama and his detractors utterly useless.
    Feel free to point out which part of Snopes' explanation you have an issue with.

  25. #200
    Carseller4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrStale View Post
    Feel free to point out which part of Snopes' explanation you have an issue with.
    Why would I even bother reading their explanation knowing they are huge Obamatrons? The spin would surely make me dizzy!

  26. #201
    flyingillini
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    The USA could learn a thing or two from the people of Canada.

  27. #202
    andywend
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    You do realize that Snopes founders are huge Obama donors, don't you?

    Which effectively renders Snopes opinions on Obama and his detractors utterly useless.
    CarSeller, this explains a lot as Snopes always used to be completely neutral when it came to politics but since Obama won the election, they seem to be clearly biased towards the democrats and seem especially protective about anything that might put Barack Obama in a negative light.
    Some Americans ruin it for other Americans. You know these Americans: "Oh, we're the best country on earth, and we do this better, and we do that better, and we're better at this than anybody else. Why does anyone want to kill us?" I don't understand. Cause Canadians, we're not like that. We're better than that.
    Flyingillini, are you really so foolish to believe that these Islamic terrorists like Canadians? They want to kill you just as much as they want to kill us. If you don't believe exactly as they do, then they want to kill you, plain and simple.

    The only difference between the U.S. and Canada is the U.S. is actually trying to prevent these freaks from becoming stronger while Canada does what they always do which is hide under a rock and hope the boogeyman doesn't get them.

    The USA could learn a thing or two from the people of Canada.
    Like waiting for U.S. drug patents to expire and then mass marketing generic versions for its citizens?

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