1. #1
    magyarsvensk
    magyarsvensk's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 07-25-14
    Posts: 193
    Betpoints: 378

    You vs. the Books: Different Jobs, Different Tools

    Since this forum is kinda dead anyway, I thought I would share some thoughts on the difference between us and the books and what that means for a bettor's strategy.

    Maybe at this point it isn't a secret that I am not a fan of using statistics to develop betting strategies. I will admit that I've only taken one statistics class in my life, but if I took at least one useful thing from it, it would be this: statistics theories assume a static environment. It was developed to describe what we can know about an evenly distributed population from a random sample with a certain degree of confidence.

    A great example of this is the exit polls of presidential elections versus the periodic phone polls that are taken in the months leading up to the election. The phone polls use a sample of "likely voters" (what if they don't vote?) and measure who they "think" they are going to vote for (what if they change their minds?). The exit polls are always right because that is statistics the way it was meant to be used -- to infer the distribution of a population from the distribution of a sample. You are asking people who definitely did vote exactly whom they voted for.

    Statistics does not work with populations that are not evenly distributed. It also doesn't work with populations and samples whose sizes and components are in constant flux. Finally, there is no statistical theory that says that what happened in the past will happen in the future. This is a good anecdote to live by and certainly has some degree of truth, but how much and to what extent?

    So the first thing we can throw out the window as bettors is all the crap about what makes a good sample size and what degree of confidence you can have based on a certain sample size, mean, standard deviation and all of that other theoretical stuff. Those theories were developed because mathematicians want to develop theories that can be applied universally to a static axiomatic system. Sports betting is neither static nor axiomatic. I believe it is best not to use statistics just because you feel you should, but to understand what these statistical measurements actually mean and develop your own equivalents for the precise situation that you need them.

    Do the books use statistics? Sure, and one of the reasons is because their job is a hell of a lot easier than yours. Their job is to adjust the lines such that on average across all reasonably large samples of games given major variables, the difference between the results and the predictions fits within plus or minus the vig. They just need to make it so that if you bet a certain way on all home teams or all away teams or all favorites or all underdogs or all home teams coming off of a travel day, you will lose money in the long run. Once they have done that, they win at the game of statistics, because they know that once the cross-sections of games gets small enough (e.g. left-handed pitchers in Coors Field on a full moon with six days of rest), the sample size will be such that you cannot make a reliable prediction. It also doesn't hurt that their bankroll is infinite. So while you would be agonizing over a 10-game losing streak, your 10-game winning streak is a blip on the radar for the books. You cannot beat them at their own game.

    Your job as a bettor is harder, but not impossible. You already know that the lines are a decent representation of most easy to procure variables -- you know what not to do, because the books already have a monopoly on that. Your job is to find a way to slice the data that produces consistent and reliable results despite that. It is possible to do so, but it requires a more diabolical approach. Your job is not to imitate the books -- your job is not to accurately represent sports games via regression modeling. That wouldn't be efficient. Your goal is to find a chink in the armor -- a system that thrives in the environment that the books create. That environment is well-suited to take the money of bettors chasing five- ten- and twenty-game "trends." If you can find a formula that makes as few assumptions as possible and remains profitable over thousands of games -- and preferably one that adapts over time to changing environments -- then you've got a winner.
    Nomination(s):
    This post was nominated 1 time . To view the nominated thread please click here. People who nominated: TheCentaur

  2. #2
    Ralphie Halves
    Ralphie Halves's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 12-13-09
    Posts: 4,506
    Betpoints: 15072

    Sadly, I think your well thought out post is going to be lost on most people here. The majority here like to parlay, chase, go all-in, and talk about roosters.

    You might like the book "The Predictioneer's Game" by Bruce Bueno De Mosquita, based on what you just wrote. Really interesting angle he approaches it all from.

  3. #3
    boomer62
    boomer62's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 09-10-11
    Posts: 1,500
    Betpoints: 102

    Wow, thank you so much for the education LMAO

  4. #4
    TheCentaur
    TheCentaur's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 06-28-11
    Posts: 8,108
    Betpoints: 68

    I frikkin love Hungarian goulash

  5. #5
    Bostongambler
    Bostongambler's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 02-01-08
    Posts: 35,930
    Betpoints: 14320

    They should make tennis a contact sport.

  6. #6
    jjgold
    jjgold's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 07-20-05
    Posts: 388,190
    Betpoints: 10

    What a clown

    It's all about getting the best number throw out every other gambling theory there is in the world

    If the line you bet is not close or better than the closer you have no chance of ever winning

  7. #7
    Darkside Magick
    Black Box Algorithm
    Darkside Magick's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 05-28-10
    Posts: 12,586
    Betpoints: 1258

    Quote Originally Posted by jjgold View Post
    What a clown

    It's all about getting the best number throw out every other gambling theory there is in the world

    If the line you bet is not close or better than the closer you have no chance of ever winning

    Gold..stop with the garbage...beating the closing number mumbo jumbo is propaganda.

    People taking simple stuff and making it complicated ....pick a side ..win...collect...Repeat!

  8. #8
    rkelly110
    rkelly110's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 10-05-09
    Posts: 39,172
    Betpoints: 10576

    Nice write up newfella, but you told us what again? Be contrarian?

    How do you think the books make odds? They use stats.

    Betting against the public is a great way to make money in sports. Using consensus data, pick the team that is
    in the 30% range. Great odds and you don't have to hit at a high percent to make money. Contrarian.

  9. #9
    magyarsvensk
    magyarsvensk's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 07-25-14
    Posts: 193
    Betpoints: 378

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Halves View Post
    Sadly, I think your well thought out post is going to be lost on most people here. The majority here like to parlay, chase, go all-in, and talk about roosters.

    You might like the book "The Predictioneer's Game" by Bruce Bueno De Mosquita, based on what you just wrote. Really interesting angle he approaches it all from.
    Never heard of it. Thanks, I will check it out.

  10. #10
    magyarsvensk
    magyarsvensk's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 07-25-14
    Posts: 193
    Betpoints: 378

    Quote Originally Posted by jjgold View Post
    What a clown

    It's all about getting the best number throw out every other gambling theory there is in the world

    If the line you bet is not close or better than the closer you have no chance of ever winning
    Not only is this wrong, it is the exact approach that would not work. The vig would protect the books from movement even if their lines were perfect, but their lines are not perfect anyway. You are basically like the old lady at the casino playing the 98% slots because they are better than the 97% slots.

  11. #11
    jjgold
    jjgold's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 07-20-05
    Posts: 388,190
    Betpoints: 10

    mags good material but I disagree

    If you cannot beat closers on a consistent basis you have no shot to win

  12. #12
    magyarsvensk
    magyarsvensk's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 07-25-14
    Posts: 193
    Betpoints: 378

    Why would it be necessary to beat the closing odds to have a chance of winning?

    Trying to beat the closing odds by a statistically significant amount would necessarily imply that you are not trying to pick winners. And last time I checked, winning was the best way to win.

  13. #13
    TheCentaur
    TheCentaur's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 06-28-11
    Posts: 8,108
    Betpoints: 68

    Magyar r u from Budapest? This is important

  14. #14
    magyarsvensk
    magyarsvensk's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 07-25-14
    Posts: 193
    Betpoints: 378

    My grandfather was.

  15. #15
    James Marques
    James Marques's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 03-04-14
    Posts: 1,605
    Betpoints: 3692

    If you're not quantifying your hunches, that's all they are. I don't understand why people think exploring statistics is stupid. You don't have to play what the numbers say. You still have your intuitions. It literally does nothing but help you, but some of you guys treat it like cancer.

    Yes, traditional statistics does not help you in sports betting. All it does is tell you what already happened. Just like following trends, by the way. But INFERENTIAL statistics, specifically conditional probability and Bayes' Theorem, definitely is a useful tool. You'll notice I used the word tool there. It's not a crystal ball. You can't quantify when some scrub on the mound ate his Wheaties that morning and has a great day. So if you happen to notice that every time you bet against this guy cuz some stats keep telling you so he wins, you change the bet. It's that simple. If you see your stats tell you to swallow the juice and bet on Kazmir, but then you remember he pitched 120 pitches last time out... lay off. But most importantly, you track everything. Everything. Every whim, every assumption, every stat of predictive value. If the numbers are right more often than your hunches, bet on the numbers. If not, go with your hunches. But I got to be honest, if you are using no numbers whatsoever, I don't see how you can possibly quantify what you're betting on. And that, to me, is a guess.

  16. #16
    jjgold
    jjgold's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 07-20-05
    Posts: 388,190
    Betpoints: 10

    Mags do you realize most spreads are random outcomes??

    I would think money lines not as random

    Totals are also random

    So how do you handicap randomness?

  17. #17
    magyarsvensk
    magyarsvensk's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 07-25-14
    Posts: 193
    Betpoints: 378

    Of course there is an element of randomness to everything in this world. No one could have predicted with any amount of certainty Soriano's epic breakdown last night. Likewise, those kinds of things are always risks, and if you try to avoid every possible risk, you end up not placing any bets at all.

    It is impossible to know what will happen. There is no such thing as a lock. But as long as there is a pattern of behavior that books abide by, there is a strategy to break it. It is just like poker or chess or any other game. Know your opponent, design your strategy to best your opponent, win.

    If it feels like the books are playing against you, that is because you are playing their game. That is what they want. Play a different game: filter out all of the stuff that they do best, and then whatever is left is your game. That game can be won.

  18. #18
    jjgold
    jjgold's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 07-20-05
    Posts: 388,190
    Betpoints: 10

    Mags I will study everything you wrote and see if I can pick up some good tips

  19. #19
    ItsMeMrMattE
    puttin 2 cents in for 3 out
    ItsMeMrMattE's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 08-30-10
    Posts: 5,294
    Betpoints: 1079

    good post op. whether people agree with you or not isn't important. you're smarter than most on here. keep posts like this coming.

  20. #20
    ohdecas
    ohdecas's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 06-12-13
    Posts: 539
    Betpoints: 744

    upp

  21. #21
    Big Bear
    Love your neighbor
    Big Bear's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 11-01-11
    Posts: 43,253
    Betpoints: 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Halves View Post
    Sadly, I think your well thought out post is going to be lost on most people here. The majority here like to parlay, chase, go all-in, and talk about roosters.

    You might like the book "The Predictioneer's Game" by Bruce Bueno De Mosquita, based on what you just wrote. Really interesting angle he approaches it all from.
    sold at barnes and noble?

  22. #22
    magyarsvensk
    magyarsvensk's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 07-25-14
    Posts: 193
    Betpoints: 378

    Quote Originally Posted by James Marques View Post
    If you're not quantifying your hunches, that's all they are.

    Yes, traditional statistics does not help you in sports betting. All it does is tell you what already happened. Just like following trends, by the way. But INFERENTIAL statistics, specifically conditional probability and Bayes' Theorem, definitely is a useful tool.
    I am not arguing against quantification. I use an algorithm for all of my picks, but the algorithm doesn't use any statistics. It's a game playing algorithm -- finds the optimal path to victory.

  23. #23
    Big Bear
    Love your neighbor
    Big Bear's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 11-01-11
    Posts: 43,253
    Betpoints: 14

    Quote Originally Posted by magyarsvensk View Post
    Since this forum is kinda dead anyway, I thought I would share some thoughts on the difference between us and the books and what that means for a bettor's strategy.

    Maybe at this point it isn't a secret that I am not a fan of using statistics to develop betting strategies. I will admit that I've only taken one statistics class in my life, but if I took at least one useful thing from it, it would be this: statistics theories assume a static environment. It was developed to describe what we can know about an evenly distributed population from a random sample with a certain degree of confidence.

    A great example of this is the exit polls of presidential elections versus the periodic phone polls that are taken in the months leading up to the election. The phone polls use a sample of "likely voters" (what if they don't vote?) and measure who they "think" they are going to vote for (what if they change their minds?). The exit polls are always right because that is statistics the way it was meant to be used -- to infer the distribution of a population from the distribution of a sample. You are asking people who definitely did vote exactly whom they voted for.

    Statistics does not work with populations that are not evenly distributed. It also doesn't work with populations and samples whose sizes and components are in constant flux. Finally, there is no statistical theory that says that what happened in the past will happen in the future. This is a good anecdote to live by and certainly has some degree of truth, but how much and to what extent?

    So the first thing we can throw out the window as bettors is all the crap about what makes a good sample size and what degree of confidence you can have based on a certain sample size, mean, standard deviation and all of that other theoretical stuff. Those theories were developed because mathematicians want to develop theories that can be applied universally to a static axiomatic system. Sports betting is neither static nor axiomatic. I believe it is best not to use statistics just because you feel you should, but to understand what these statistical measurements actually mean and develop your own equivalents for the precise situation that you need them.

    Do the books use statistics? Sure, and one of the reasons is because their job is a hell of a lot easier than yours. Their job is to adjust the lines such that on average across all reasonably large samples of games given major variables, the difference between the results and the predictions fits within plus or minus the vig. They just need to make it so that if you bet a certain way on all home teams or all away teams or all favorites or all underdogs or all home teams coming off of a travel day, you will lose money in the long run. Once they have done that, they win at the game of statistics, because they know that once the cross-sections of games gets small enough (e.g. left-handed pitchers in Coors Field on a full moon with six days of rest), the sample size will be such that you cannot make a reliable prediction. It also doesn't hurt that their bankroll is infinite. So while you would be agonizing over a 10-game losing streak, your 10-game winning streak is a blip on the radar for the books. You cannot beat them at their own game.

    Your job as a bettor is harder, but not impossible. You already know that the lines are a decent representation of most easy to procure variables -- you know what not to do, because the books already have a monopoly on that. Your job is to find a way to slice the data that produces consistent and reliable results despite that. It is possible to do so, but it requires a more diabolical approach. Your job is not to imitate the books -- your job is not to accurately represent sports games via regression modeling. That wouldn't be efficient. Your goal is to find a chink in the armor -- a system that thrives in the environment that the books create. That environment is well-suited to take the money of bettors chasing five- ten- and twenty-game "trends." If you can find a formula that makes as few assumptions as possible and remains profitable over thousands of games -- and preferably one that adapts over time to changing environments -- then you've got a winner.
    good stuff

  24. #24
    Pete0
    --------------------
    Pete0's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 04-09-10
    Posts: 3,849
    Betpoints: 106

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsMeMrMattE View Post
    good post op. whether people agree with you or not isn't important. you're smarter than most on here. keep posts like this coming.
    This. good post OP

  25. #25
    Ghenghis Kahn
    Best Baller on SBR
    Ghenghis Kahn's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 01-02-12
    Posts: 19,735
    Betpoints: 2261

    all jargon aside, 99% of sports bettors lose due to bankroll management. and reading books on sports betting is useless.

    let me put it to you this way, would anyone making exorbitant amounts on sports betting share their secrets and skew their numbers? of course not.

    believe it or not, sports betting isn't a huge market. no one that really has a clue will share it with the general public. basically you have to find the gold mine yourself.

    so how do you find the gold mine? well i'm still searching and when i do, i'm certainly not gonna write a book about it...

  26. #26
    I/O
    I/O's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 05-26-11
    Posts: 7,922

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghenghis Kahn View Post
    all jargon aside, 99% of sports bettors lose due to bankroll management. and reading books on sports betting is useless.

    let me put it to you this way, would anyone making exorbitant amounts on sports betting share their secrets and skew their numbers? of course not.

    believe it or not, sports betting isn't a huge market. no one that really has a clue will share it with the general public. basically you have to find the gold mine yourself.

    so how do you find the gold mine? well i'm still searching and when i do, i'm certainly not gonna write a book about it..
    .

  27. #27
    Big Bear
    Love your neighbor
    Big Bear's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 11-01-11
    Posts: 43,253
    Betpoints: 14

    i might write a book about gambling one day.

    I got alot of knowledge i'd like to share with the young guns

  28. #28
    jjgold
    jjgold's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 07-20-05
    Posts: 388,190
    Betpoints: 10

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghenghis Kahn View Post
    all jargon aside, 99% of sports bettors lose due to bankroll management. and reading books on sports betting is useless.

    let me put it to you this way, would anyone making exorbitant amounts on sports betting share their secrets and skew their numbers? of course not.

    believe it or not, sports betting isn't a huge market. no one that really has a clue will share it with the general public. basically you have to find the gold mine yourself.

    so how do you find the gold mine? well i'm still searching and when i do, i'm certainly not gonna write a book about it...
    Great post and 100% true

    Losers only write books

  29. #29
    I/O
    I/O's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 05-26-11
    Posts: 7,922

    Were those that bet SF 1st half wrong

Top