1. #211
    newguy
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    Quote Originally Posted by muldoon View Post
    Farm subsidies?
    Most expensive farm bill ever, and one in place through 2013 was voted and put in place in 2008. Bush vetoed and the democratic congress overrode. So that's a democratic handout.

  2. #212
    muldoon
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    Quote Originally Posted by newguy View Post
    Most expensive farm bill ever, and one in place through 2013 was voted and put in place in 2008. Bush vetoed and the democratic congress overrode. So that's a democratic handout.
    Farm subsidies have only occurred in the last couple years? Interesting.

    They've occurred, and have been supported by both parties.

    You wanted an example of a corporate handout/welfare.

  3. #213
    newguy
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    Quote Originally Posted by muldoon View Post
    Farm subsidies have only occurred in the last couple years? Interesting.

    They've occurred, and have been supported by both parties.

    You wanted an example of a corporate handout/welfare.
    Very fair. Did more research. Seems both parties love and hate them.

  4. #214
    Mr KLC
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Mayan View Post
    So these job creators never made money of the government(handouts)... Roads, bridges, railroad, government funded innovation, etc.. please corporations take more than anybody else..
    The job creators actually chipped in, and helped pay for those roads and bridges through the gas tax. That's the tax that everybody that needs gas pays.

  5. #215
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    When I have an hour to spare, I'm gonna read this thread

  6. #216
    newguy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr KLC View Post
    The job creators actually chipped in, and helped pay for those roads and bridges through the gas tax. That's the tax that everybody that needs gas pays.
    Not to mention the taxes on profits, payroll taxes, income taxes paid by individuals who have a job because of that company, the sales tax on everything bought with the money earned by those folks. Goes on and on.

  7. #217
    GunShard
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    Increase of minimum wage is correlated with the increase of unemployment.

  8. #218
    jose21_us
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    I would like to see it go back down $4.75 an hour.

  9. #219
    stevenash
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Mayan View Post
    I think it was tax cuts for middle class folks.. Fukk them only rich silver spoon brats deserve tax cuts... Limbaugh says so..
    Would you like to debate this with me?
    No perjoratives, no jokes, just facts.

    The wealthiest 10 percent pay a little over 70 percent of the federal income tax collected.
    In 1986, when Ronnie was in office, it was 55 percent.

    The other 90 percent, that is pretty much all of us on these here boards paid a little under 30 percent of all federal income taxes collected




    And 47 percent paid nothing, or next to nothing.
    But let's hang Mitt by his neck for bringing this up.

    FACT: The rich pay a higher rate than the poor.

    Tax codes are different now than in 1986 though.
    Under Ronnie in '86, there were just two tax brackets.

    15 percent - that was pretty much what the working stiffs paid.
    28 percent - pretty much what the doctors and lawyers and the other six and seven figured annual salaried person paid.

    Now there are seven talx brackets, low 10 percent - pretty much what the entry level factory grunt pays - up to 39 percent

    Stop it with the poor don't get any breaks, child care incentive, and income tax credit for the poor are at an all time high under Obama.

    Just like the poor, the corporations get tax breaks too.
    Most of the poor don't cheat, most of the rich don't cheat, they take advantage of the tax breaks and incentives given to them.

    Factoring state and local taxes, the top percent pay half, almost, 48 percent.
    Caluculating tax burden as a percent of income, the top ten percent accounted for 30 percent of the federal taxes collected last year.
    The bottom 90 percent, accounted for 25 percent of the taxes paid.
    Ask Mitt about the other percentage that accounts for nothing paid.

    You can to spin it anyway you want, and the Obama liberals are really really good at spinning, but no matter how you spin it, bottom line, rich pay more. Don't argue this, it is a stone...cold...fact!

    Where are those 7 million new jobs Obama promised when he ran for office the first time in 2008.
    He swore he would create 7 million jobs.
    1) Not even close to 7 million.
    2) The jobs he created were not even full time, and a lot of them additons to make up for previous layoffs, and those additions came at a lower price.

    Who said this?
    "We can put people back to work....if we've got bold leadership in the White House"

  10. #220
    stevenash
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    Data extracted on: February 16, 2014 (9:58:06 AM)
    Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey


    Series Id: LNS12300000
    Seasonally Adjusted
    Series title: (Seas) Employment-Population Ratio
    Labor force status: Employment-population ratio
    Type of data: Percent or rate
    Age: 16 years and over



  11. #221
    brooks85
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    Speaking of roads, that isn't job creation as much as it is job security controlled by unions, such as, pavers of America. There has been a new type of layer you can put on top of the roads for decades. It's just like the track you run on at high school or the chopped material you see at a kids playground. All the tires from cars sitting around this country can be used in this material instead of just decaying in a field. It can stretch and close like rubber so the main culprit of potholes is greatly reduced so the need to repair the road is reduced. Plus, when it comes time to repair it requires far less man power.

    And, that is exactly why unions have shut it down and we drive on shitty roads that break down like clock work. So they have a "job."

  12. #222
    pavyracer
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    Quote Originally Posted by brooks85 View Post
    Speaking of roads, that isn't job creation as much as it is job security controlled by unions, such as, pavers of America. There has been a new type of layer you can put on top of the roads for decades. It's just like the track you run on at high school or the chopped material you see at a kids playground. All the tires from cars sitting around this country can be used in this material instead of just decaying in a field. It can stretch and close like rubber so the main culprit of potholes is greatly reduced so the need to repair the road is reduced. Plus, when it comes time to repair it requires far less man power.

    And, that is exactly why unions have shut it down and we drive on shitty roads that break down like clock work. So they have a "job."
    Do you work for the Department Of Transportation or have any kind of degree or professional registration to support your claims?

  13. #223
    brooks85
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavyracer View Post
    Do you work for the Department Of Transportation or have any kind of degree or professional registration to support your claims?
    lol thanks for the laugh

    And, yes science backs up my claims on polymers. Very basic stuff. I thought you were an engineer also? Apparently not, stop lying on internet forums you loser.
    Last edited by brooks85; 02-16-14 at 10:08 AM.

  14. #224
    brooks85
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    Also, the new layer has already been used to build a highway California many years ago due to the remoteness of the highway.

  15. #225
    itchypickle
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    Quote Originally Posted by brooks85 View Post
    Also, the new layer has already been used to build a highway California many years ago due to the remoteness of the highway.

    The RAC (Rubberized Asphalt Concrete) stuff right?

  16. #226
    King Mayan
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenash View Post
    Would you like to debate this with me?
    No perjoratives, no jokes, just facts.

    The wealthiest 10 percent pay a little over 70 percent of the federal income tax collected.
    In 1986, when Ronnie was in office, it was 55 percent.

    The other 90 percent, that is pretty much all of us on these here boards paid a little under 30 percent of all federal income taxes collected




    And 47 percent paid nothing, or next to nothing.
    But let's hang Mitt by his neck for bringing this up.

    FACT: The rich pay a higher rate than the poor.

    Tax codes are different now than in 1986 though.
    Under Ronnie in '86, there were just two tax brackets.

    15 percent - that was pretty much what the working stiffs paid.
    28 percent - pretty much what the doctors and lawyers and the other six and seven figured annual salaried person paid.

    Now there are seven talx brackets, low 10 percent - pretty much what the entry level factory grunt pays - up to 39 percent

    Stop it with the poor don't get any breaks, child care incentive, and income tax credit for the poor are at an all time high under Obama.

    Just like the poor, the corporations get tax breaks too.
    Most of the poor don't cheat, most of the rich don't cheat, they take advantage of the tax breaks and incentives given to them.

    Factoring state and local taxes, the top percent pay half, almost, 48 percent.
    Caluculating tax burden as a percent of income, the top ten percent accounted for 30 percent of the federal taxes collected last year.
    The bottom 90 percent, accounted for 25 percent of the taxes paid.
    Ask Mitt about the other percentage that accounts for nothing paid.

    You can to spin it anyway you want, and the Obama liberals are really really good at spinning, but no matter how you spin it, bottom line, rich pay more. Don't argue this, it is a stone...cold...fact!

    Where are those 7 million new jobs Obama promised when he ran for office the first time in 2008.
    He swore he would create 7 million jobs.
    1) Not even close to 7 million.
    2) The jobs he created were not even full time, and a lot of them additons to make up for previous layoffs, and those additions came at a lower price.

    Who said this?
    "We can put people back to work....if we've got bold leadership in the White House"
    All that shit you wrote(fox talking points) and I'll ask you one question back... How much of the wealth in this country does the top 10% own??

  17. #227
    itchypickle
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Mayan View Post
    All that shit you wrote(fox talking points) and I'll ask you one question back... How much of the wealth in this country does the top 10% own??
    Remember that the next time you benefit from the taxes they pay to have things run, or the 'greedy investors' who are the backers for your favorite casino or hell even the commercial property where your coveted gym resides was most likely funded through them Mayan.

    Thats the bottom line on the argument....whats your concern over how much someone else makes as long as you reap the benefits from their efforts?

  18. #228
    stevenash
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Mayan View Post
    All that shit you wrote(fox talking points) and I'll ask you one question back... How much of the wealth in this country does the top 10% own??
    Facts are facts. Talking points are based off of facts.
    What are Obama talking points?

    I like you Mayan, don't make me take you to the back by the woodshed and take you to school, I will have to if you make me though.

    Let's see, JP Morgan owns a shitload of this country, now look up how much money JP Morgan donates to people that need it.
    Look it up, I can wait, I can give you the answer, but I won't.
    The top ten percent does a lot for the bottom 90 percent.
    Last edited by stevenash; 02-16-14 at 10:56 AM.

  19. #229
    King Mayan
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    So the top 10% pay 70% of federal taxes but how much of the the wealth to they own?? It better be 70%...

  20. #230
    King Mayan
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    Quote Originally Posted by itchypickle View Post
    Remember that the next time you benefit from the taxes they pay to have things run, or the 'greedy investors' who are the backers for your favorite casino or hell even the commercial property where your coveted gym resides was most likely funded through them Mayan.

    Thats the bottom line on the argument....whats your concern over how much someone else makes as long as you reap the benefits from their efforts?
    Ok? So they invest and make money of it?? And I should think about their silver spoon ass, Why?

  21. #231
    itchypickle
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Mayan View Post
    Ok? So they invest and make money of it?? And I should think about their silver spoon ass, Why?
    You should really look at the bios of the mega rich and see where they all got their start from Mayan....not talking about the walton grandchildren but the actual wealth generators themselves. Start with George Mitchell in the shale gas boom and go from there.

  22. #232
    Optional
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    Quote Originally Posted by brooks85 View Post
    take a look at this list, see if you're intelligent enough to admit you're wrong. Have fun with your top "10" rankings

    http://www.businessinsider.com/most-...ts-2013-6?op=1

    USA's highest city is only 46th on the list. You can search this list over and over, results are always the same when it comes to USA cities.
    Did you notice that most of those most expensive cities are in Japan, Scandinavia and Australia?

    Places with high minimum wages and high quality of life. Who cares what things cost if most people can afford them? Is that the case in the USA? Or are 1/3 of your population living below the poverty line on food stamps?

    Do you see cities like Detroit devastated by the GFC in any of those countries where the cost of living and minimum wage are high?

    USA is probably near the richest country per head in the world based on GDP. Why don't you 'invest' in the population like other rich countries do?

    Sure things become more expensive, but what does that matter if it improves everybody's quality of life?

    Why are Americans so tight ass they think it's fine to pay your lowest paid workers less than just about any other first world nation?

    Why do so many refuse to see raising the minimum wage is the fastest/easiest way to close the income gap between poor and middle class, which in turn is the most effective way to reduce crime and increases consumption.

    It's like a bunch of ostriches with your heads jammed in a philosophical pile of sand yelling 'liberal commie bastards want to give all my taxes away' without a moments thought about how self destructive you are being.

  23. #233
    Sdotbold
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavyracer View Post
    Exactly. Small businesses don't even pay minimum wage. It's cheaper for them to pay the illegals cash under the table than having SS and pay all the taxes associated with a payroll.

    The problem with minimum wage is not small business. The problem is the big corporations like Walmart, McDonald's. The investors in these companies which are publicly traded look for profits. So their goal is to sell the most by using the least amount of workers and pay them the minimum they could under current laws without providing any benefits. It's the modern version of slavery. From where the products are manufactured to where the products are sold people are used as slaves.
    they could always get another job right? at least in america anyway. who works cooking burgers at mcdonalds as a career? if they did wouldnt they become a manager? or try to work in the corporate or accounting offices? you dont always need degrees to do that either.

    What for profit business doesnt work in the same fashion as you stated? get the most productivity out of the least amount of man hours at the best labor rate possible.

    dont say all small businesses hire illegals. i think it is wrong for the ones that do. it hurts lower wage americans driving wages down.

  24. #234
    Andy117
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavyracer View Post
    Exactly. Small businesses don't even pay minimum wage. It's cheaper for them to pay the illegals cash under the table than having SS and pay all the taxes associated with a payroll.
    Easiest way to fix our immigration issue is to heavily fine any business that hires illegals.

  25. #235
    Thor4140
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    This is typical of far right greedy Tea Bag philosophy. So in essence the huge farms get a ton of money so they can basically walmart the small farms. Now with the poor if they make ten dollars it cuts back their social money. Rich make more they get more. Poor make more they get less. The complete opposite. Only in America can u find shitbags that would agree with this. Just give the rich guy more money and do the complete opposite with the poor guy. This min wage debate is hysterical cause not one of these assholes ever created a job or would have to pay that min wage. They are somehow worried about small business now like they are now worried about the deficit LMFAO. When Walmart comes to town and crushes the small business they are okay with that. When Rich farmers get more help than poorer farmers they are okay with that. Now with raising the min wage these guys are all Small Business supporters. Pathetic hypocritical shitbags really. Just sayin

    Farm Subsidies

    However, the largest fraction of corporate welfare spending, about 40%, went through the Department of Agriculture, most of it in the form of farm subsidies. (Edwards, Corporate Welfare, 2003) Well, that sounds OK. Someone’s got to help struggling family farms stay afloat, right? But in reality, farm subsidies actually tilt the cotton field in favor of the largest industrial farming operations. When it comes to deciding how to dole out the money, the agricultural subsidy system utilizes a process that is essentially the opposite of that used in the social welfare system’s welfare system. In the corporate welfare system, the more money and assets you have, the more government assistance you get. Conversely, social welfare programs are set up so that the more money and assets you have, the less government assistance you get. The result is that the absolute largest 7% of corporate farming operations receive 45% of all subsidies. (Edwards, Downsizing the Federal Government, 2004) So instead of protecting family farms, these subsidies actually enhance the ability of large industrial operations to shut them out of the market.

  26. #236
    pavyracer
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    Quote Originally Posted by brooks85 View Post
    lol thanks for the laugh

    And, yes science backs up my claims on polymers. Very basic stuff. I thought you were an engineer also? Apparently not, stop lying on internet forums you loser.
    Ah calling me names to counteract the fact that you have no degree or have any license about the subject you are talking about. Because apparently to build a road you only need paving materials!

  27. #237
    stevenash
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Mayan View Post
    So the top 10% pay 70% of federal taxes but how much of the the wealth to they own?? It better be 70%...
    Bottom line, rich pay more than poor.

    What you want is two classes, non owning workers, and non working owners, right?
    You want workers to enjoy the fruits of their labor as long as it isn't in a capitalist society, right?

    Guess what pal? History proves it doesn't work.

    Like it or not, the poor need the rich.
    Welfare is largely funded by income tax.
    The rich pay more income tax than the middle class and below.

    WTF is your problem man?

  28. #238
    stevenash
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor4140 View Post
    This is typical of far right greedy Tea Bag philosophy. So in essence the huge farms get a ton of money so they can basically walmart the small farms. Now with the poor if they make ten dollars it cuts back their social money. Rich make more they get more. Poor make more they get less. The complete opposite. Only in America can u find shitbags that would agree with this. Just give the rich guy more money and do the complete opposite with the poor guy. This min wage debate is hysterical cause not one of these assholes ever created a job or would have to pay that min wage. They are somehow worried about small business now like they are now worried about the deficit LMFAO. When Walmart comes to town and crushes the small business they are okay with that. When Rich farmers get more help than poorer farmers they are okay with that. Now with raising the min wage these guys are all Small Business supporters. Pathetic hypocritical shitbags really. Just sayin

    Farm Subsidies

    However, the largest fraction of corporate welfare spending, about 40%, went through the Department of Agriculture, most of it in the form of farm subsidies. (Edwards, Corporate Welfare, 2003) Well, that sounds OK. Someone’s got to help struggling family farms stay afloat, right? But in reality, farm subsidies actually tilt the cotton field in favor of the largest industrial farming operations. When it comes to deciding how to dole out the money, the agricultural subsidy system utilizes a process that is essentially the opposite of that used in the social welfare system’s welfare system. In the corporate welfare system, the more money and assets you have, the more government assistance you get. Conversely, social welfare programs are set up so that the more money and assets you have, the less government assistance you get. The result is that the absolute largest 7% of corporate farming operations receive 45% of all subsidies. (Edwards, Downsizing the Federal Government, 2004) So instead of protecting family farms, these subsidies actually enhance the ability of large industrial operations to shut them out of the market.
    Sounds like you have a beef with Obama's buddy Tom Vilsack, take it up with him.

    I wonder how many of the Koch boys billions are donated to agriculture?

  29. #239
    Thor4140
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenash View Post
    Sounds like you have a beef with Obama's buddy Tom Vilsack, take it up with him.

    I wonder how many of the Koch boys billions are donated to agriculture?
    How about stop bringing up Obama or any other politician for this problem and deal with the problem

  30. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    No one makes you pay the luxury of cable television. You're buying it as a luxury you mutt.
    oh really slick. It is all i am offered. Comcast or nothing douchey

  31. #241
    Thor4140
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    Quote Originally Posted by newguy View Post
    You didn't answer my question. What handout are you referring to? Tell me exactly what the oil company gets in the form of handout. The poor get welfare checks. I can tell you exactly what handout they get. Describe the handout oil companies get. Don't just say they get them. Prove it to me. I honestly don't know.
    really u don't know they get billions in handouts aka subsidy's. Really?

  32. #242
    King Mayan
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenash View Post
    Bottom line, rich pay more than poor.

    What you want is two classes, non owning workers, and non working owners, right?
    You want workers to enjoy the fruits of their labor as long as it isn't in a capitalist society, right?

    Guess what pal? History proves it doesn't work.

    Like it or not, the poor need the rich.
    Welfare is largely funded by income tax.
    The rich pay more income tax than the middle class and below.

    WTF is your problem man?
    the poor need the rich

    You're in a fukking bubble

  33. #243
    Thor4140
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenash View Post
    Let's break down your post shall we.
    Since you asked, I will spew some more history

    1) The parties switched beliefs twice.
    Remember the history I spewed about Andrew Jackson a few posts back.
    In the 1820's democrats could not run away fast enough from Andrew Jackson and his ways.
    That was the main reason for that party turn, kind of like what democrats are doing now with Obama, you know the ones, the ones that are pleading, "please don't lump me in with Obamacare..."

    The second time was in the 1960's
    Bassically New England and California went red to blue
    Miss/Ala those southern states went blue to red.

    2) My boys?
    Who exactly are my boys?
    Sure I am a regisgtered republican, I have said this several times on these here boards, I do not vote uip and down the party line.
    If the democratic party trotted out a candidate that lined up with me on several key issues, and is the better candidate, I will vote the democrat.
    I have voted democrat several times here in the locals and states.
    While I am on the subject of voting up and down the party line, if they kept such statistics, I bet more democrats do that then republuicans.
    I know a shitload of democrats that would vote Hitler if he had a (D) next to his name on the ballot.

    3) I think I hit a nerve when I had to give Thor a little history lesson regarding dirty politics in American history.
    Sure the republicans have had their fair share of dirty doings, but how could Thor sit there with a straight face say the democrats are cleaner.
    Shut him up and down real fast. History is history, sorry if the truth hurts.

    4) You understand I want to be like who? Who is them?
    I don't want to be just like any politician, I want to be just like me.
    The only person I ever wanted to be like, and if this sounds hoaky, so be it, I wanted to be, and I think I am, just like my dad.
    He was one of the finest military engineers that ever lived (and a whole lot of other things) and, by the way, one of the biggest democrats the ever lived, but I get it, the party thinking changed some when he was young adult then it is now. He was the only person I ever put on a pedestal, and will be the last person.

    My parting shot, and it's not to you Kelly, I've always been cool with you, I never got a handout, I got my first job off my scholastic transcripts.
    Then I took my entry level experience and my scholastic transcripts and got a bettert job in my field.
    Never, as in ever was I hired or promoted from nepatism. I never had an Uncle promote me for being a nephew. I never got hired because I date the recruiters daughter.
    Nobody ever gave me anything, I got where I got the old fashioned way, and yes, I have a problem giving a big portion of what I earned to some cradle to grave welfare lifer because he or she thinks they deserve it.
    Oh really Nash u shut me down lol. First time i read this post. Lets start with Gore. Gores big problem is that he is the messenger for climate change. Now this goes against the masters of the Republican party the oil companies. Any legitimate scientist out there knows this is happening but the boys and Fox news have trashed it as junk science the day they knew it might cost the oil companies a penny. Then of course u pigeons who get plucked daily run with it ad nauseam. The guy has been right since day one but like i said he was the wrong messenger for u guys. Just like when u trashed him about saying he invented the internet. Took a few words and switched them around and tried to make a fool out of the guy. Again run with it ad nauseam. I never said democrats were clean bud but when it comes to big big money corruption look no farther than a Republican. Lie us into war to profit the military complex at the risk of kids lives. They lied all thru the war with there bullshit excuses on why we went. Billions of billions of dollars. The problem with us is that i want all crooks gone. U just want democrats to go to jail. I vote for some Republicans i doubt u can say that. Heck last election i hand billed for a Republican. By the way Nash u have more misspellings in ur post than i post in a week
    Last edited by Thor4140; 02-16-14 at 02:42 PM.

  34. #244
    ZNC
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    Congress will not approve. The raise to $11 is too high. A more moderate proposed raise would have had them dog piling on it, but they can't with this, too much heat from big business.

  35. #245
    Thor4140
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    Another big Republican lie is how the Rich pay all the taxes. This doesn't include the military, income tax, sales tax, property taxes etc.., and if it is federal, federal is only 28 percent of this fake number they always shoot from their hip.




    Politics More: Taxes
    No, The Rich Do Not Pay 'All The Taxes'

    Josh Barro

    Dec. 13, 2013, 9:17 AM 22,012 60


    CNBC ran a story yesterday with the headline "The rich do not pay the most taxes, they pay ALL the taxes."
    The story has thousands of Facebook shares. And its premise is completely false.
    The article goes on to present data regarding the federal personal income tax, which is indeed paid almost entirely by people with high incomes. People with low incomes pay negative federal personal income taxes (that is, the government sends them checks) because of the earned income tax credit.
    But "taxes" are not the same thing as "federal personal income taxes." The federal personal income tax only made up 28% of all U.S. government tax collections in 2012. Federal, state and local governments collected $4 trillion in taxes last year; just $1.1 trillion of that was federal personal income tax.

    And people with low incomes who don't pay federal personal income tax do pay lots of those other taxes: payroll tax, state income tax, sales tax, property tax, excise taxes, and more. They pay other taxes indirectly: Workers bear the burden of employer-paid payroll taxes and part of the burden of corporate income taxes.

    Here's a chart I made earlier this year showing the distribution of the tax burden when you add all the taxes together. Earners in the top 1% pay about 43% of their incomes in tax. People in the middle quintile pay 25%. The poorest fifth pays 13%.

    Business Insider, data from Tax Policy Center and Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy


    Rich people do pay a lot more taxes than poor people, both in absolute terms and as a percentage of income. But the rich are not paying all the taxes. And looking just at the federal personal income tax and trying to draw conclusions about who pays "taxes" will lead you to wrong answers. P.S. While it's true that rich people pay most federal personal income taxes, to get to CNBC's claim that they pay "all" federal personal income taxes, you have to use a really expansive definition of "rich." The Congressional Budget Office finds that payments by the top 40% of the income distribution exceed the total of all net federal income tax collections. (This is because many poor people have negative federal income tax bills.) But that top 40% group includes single people with incomes as low as $51,100 and couples with incomes of $72,300. Those people aren't poor but it's a real stretch to say they're rich.
    SEE ALSO: The Chart That Eviscerates Five Terrible Talking Points About Taxes

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