[Deuce]

No coin, no one is disagreeing that he was great. He should be recognized and will be for generations. There is no reason for the constant three ring circus and media hoopla. It's tired and old. Stop being pissed off at the world and have an open mind for once.

[No coincidences]

So closers are apparently overvalued and don't matter now -- especially when it comes to the postseason.

I suppose kickers are expendable as well, because that is what we're talking here in virtual equivalent terms. Anyone can be plugged into a ninth inning save situation and get the job done, right? And anyone can make a field goal with the game on the line, right?

Unreal. I wonder sometimes if you guys even watch sports. MLB didn't force these teams to send Mo out like this. There's a reason they're all appreciating him for what he did and giving him due respect. Because they are the ones who know -- not some anonymous jerkoffs on a gambling message board.

Can't believe I've had to defend a Yankee of all people as much as I have today.

[No coincidences]

No coin, no one is disagreeing that he was great. He should be recognized and will be for generations. There is no reason for the constant three ring circus and media hoopla. It's tired and old. Stop being pissed off at the world and have an open mind for once.

So let me get this straight: you're sick of the "constant three ring circus and media hoopla," yet I'm the one who's "mad at the world"? Does that make any sense to you?

I hate the Yankees with a passion. Always have. But again, this isn't something MLB is forcing teams, fans, players to do. Think about that for a minute. If you've never seen anything like this before in MLB among peers and other professionals for a guy who is retiring, and you're wondering what the fuss is all about, shouldn't that tell you something?

And BTW, you said "no one is disagreeing he was great." Might want to re-read the thread.

[ZetaPsi808]

So let me get this straight: you're sick of the "constant three ring circus and media hoopla," yet I'm the one who's "mad at the world"? Does that make any sense to you?

I hate the Yankees with a passion. Always have. But again, this isn't something MLB is forcing teams, fans, players to do. Think about that for a minute. If you've never seen anything like this before in MLB among peers and other professionals for a guy who is retiring, and you're wondering what the fuss is all about, shouldn't that tell you something?

And BTW, you said "no one is disagreeing he was great." Might want to re-read the thread.

no coiner wins thread here

[Delicious]

So closers are apparently overvalued and don't matter now -- especially when it comes to the postseason.

I suppose kickers are expendable as well, because that is what we're talking here in virtual equivalent terms. Anyone can be plugged into a ninth inning save situation and get the job done, right? And anyone can make a field goal with the game on the line, right?

Unreal. I wonder sometimes if you guys even watch sports. MLB didn't force these teams to send Mo out like this. There's a reason they're all appreciating him for what he did and giving him due respect. Because they are the ones who know -- not some anonymous jerkoffs on a gambling message board.

Can't believe I've had to defend a Yankee of all people as much as I have today.

They are overvalued. If you want some proof compare SF giants bullpen era before Brian Wilson and after. Not only did they not miss a beat their Era actually went down. But, the guy was silly and had a funny beard that's all people remember The stats Rivera's apologists keep parroting are skewed as has been proven in this thread. If put in context it's kind of a head scratcher why people making such a big deal if his career. He was great at what he did and was a great teammate. but worthy of all this?? What kind of sendoff did Pedro Martinez receive? His numbers also during steroids were beyond impressive. He did a hell of a lot more than some closer. Where is his parade?

[ZetaPsi808]

if the red sox think highly enough of rivera to have a ceremony for him in fenway park then i think the attention is warranted

i would take the red sox front office's opinion and judgment over any sbr poster's opinion

[RudyRuetigger]

one more time::::

Teams leading by one run after eight innings have gone on to win 85.7 percent of the time. That number goes up to 93.7 percent when leading by two runs, and 97.5 percent when leading by three runs.
Mull that over, and then please tell me why Rivera is so amazing for having an 89.1 percent career save rate (which, by the way, is lower than Joe Nathan's). Because, basically, Rivera was not used except in games the Yankees were going to win 88 percent of the time anyway. Actually, the percentages were usually higher than that. According to Elias, of Rivera's 652 career saves, just under a third (210) were with a one-run lead when he took the mound while 216 were with a two-run lead, 180 with a three-run lead and 46 with a lead of at least four runs.

[Deuce]

So let me get this straight: you're sick of the "constant three ring circus and media hoopla," yet I'm the one who's "mad at the world"? Does that make any sense to you?

I hate the Yankees with a passion. Always have. But again, this isn't something MLB is forcing teams, fans, players to do. Think about that for a minute. If you've never seen anything like this before in MLB among peers and other professionals for a guy who is retiring, and you're wondering what the fuss is all about, shouldn't that tell you something?

And BTW, you said "no one is disagreeing he was great." Might want to re-read the thread.

Re read my original post.

[wagerjunkie]

Because they are just closers.

i was quoting him.

he said if Rivera is so good how come he never won a Cy Young.

weather agree or disagree with this thread.. I think we can all agree that has gotta be one of the dumbest comments, cause like you said hes a closer. rarely do you ever see a closer win a cy young

[wagerjunkie]

They are overvalued. If you want some proof compare SF giants bullpen era before Brian Wilson and after. Not only did they not miss a beat their Era actually went down. But, the guy was silly and had a funny beard that's all people remember The stats Rivera's apologists keep parroting are skewed as has been proven in this thread. If put in context it's kind of a head scratcher why people making such a big deal if his career. He was great at what he did and was a great teammate. but worthy of all this?? What kind of sendoff did Pedro Martinez receive? His numbers also during steroids were beyond impressive. He did a hell of a lot more than some closer. Where is his parade?

Pedro Martinez didn't have 5 World Series rings.

Pedro Martinez didnt pitch for the same team virtually his entire career for pracitcally biggest franchise in all of sports.

Pedro Martinez ended his career as Met. if he did in Boston, in his glory days, than perhaps he would have.

[747planes]

I realize he is a class act and human being. The story is great. Trevor Hoffman played on a dog shit team for ages and played one less year and has 51 less saves. I have never seen this parade of bullshit for a guy retiring. Yes, I realize he is great but so are many others that didn't have a circus when they left.

Playing for shit teams gives you more save opportunities because almost all their wins are not blow out. But that doesn't matter, even if Rivera had 50 less saves than hoffman, he would still have the same legacy because of his character.

[wagerjunkie]

i think what you guys simply can't grasp the concept of is this is a story of a man who came up and was nearly cut from the Majors and picked up off waivers and went on to be the best closer of all time. that is why everyone making such a big deal.

its a Rocky story.

its not like he had filthy 9 pitch Yu Darvish stuff where he simply over powered you or out crafted either

again I know its been crammed down everyones throats but yous obviously dont get the significance of it. the guy threw ONE PITCH. and hitters knew it was coming. ANY OTHER PITCHER THAT THROWS ONE PITCH AND HITTERS KNOW ITS COMING, they aren't lasting a month in the major leagues, let alone winning 5 world series rings and go along to be considered the best closer of all time.

you tip a major league hitter off a say fastball coming inside part of the plate..70% of the time they are going to drill the ball. with MO, no matter what that ball always rode in on the hitters hands they could do nothing about it except beat the ball into the ground over and over for years.

appreciate it for what it is. its a story a man went on to achieve greatness from busting his ass, never giving up and hard work. like I said. a true Rocky under dog story.

[wagerjunkie]

Playing for shit teams gives you more save opportunities because almost all their wins are not blow out. But that doesn't matter, even if Rivera had 50 less saves than hoffman, he would still have the same legacy because of his character.

exactly.

shit teams score less so they are more often involved in lower scoring games/tighter games or 1 run games.

[RudyRuetigger]

rivera is there for his head (mental ability in playoffs) and body (longevity of career). period. not for being a great pitcher.

you can argue he only threw one pitch and still got guys out. i can argue whos fault is that he only had one pitch? it is about getting guys out, and saving the fukkin game.....and i hate to break it to you, he was average at that.

[No coincidences]

rivera is there for his head (mental ability in playoffs) and body (longevity of career). period. not for being a great pitcher.

And that doesn't make him a great pitcher?

[No coincidences]

and i hate to break it to you, he was average at that.

And in the postseason? When it matters most?

I'm finding it hard to believe this is you posting right now, RR. So Rivera was "average" at saving games?

[MoneyLineDawg]

rivera is there for his head (mental ability in playoffs) and body (longevity of career). period. not for being a great pitcher.

you can argue he only threw one pitch and still got guys out. i can argue whos fault is that he only had one pitch? it is about getting guys out, and saving the fukkin game.....and i hate to break it to you, he was average at that.

Rivera's career ERA and WHIP, especially in the playoffs where it fukkin matters a hell of a lot more, is amazing

Average at getting guys out....GTFO

He has the BEST ERA and 3rd best WHIP in playoff history.....(13th and 3rd respectively in the regular season all-time)

How come no other closers come close to his playoff stats??

[wagerjunkie]

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that anyone saying Rivera is "average" has either got to be 19 and under

or some super stat nerd that never stepped foot on a field before or thrown a baseball in their life who looks at WAR as the ultimate stat.

[bigtymer56]

rivera is there for his head (mental ability in playoffs) and body (longevity of career). period. not for being a great pitcher.

you can argue he only threw one pitch and still got guys out. i can argue whos fault is that he only had one pitch? it is about getting guys out, and saving the fukkin game.....and i hate to break it to you, he was average at that.

If he was just average, who the hell would you classify as above average?

[No coincidences]

I'm going to make one more post and then let the dead dog lie, because when it comes down to it, we're talking about opinions and perspective here.

I used to make this exact same argument re: Phil Jackson. I've always thought he was an opportunistic glory hound who rode the right coattails to greatness, and got a lot more credit than he deserves in the process.

Problem is, other than Auerbach, I really couldn't base my take in fact because I always ran into the "well then compare him to xxxx" dead end. No matter how he got there in which year for which team, the bottom line is that he won a shitload of titles and no one else has ever really matched his greatness on paper.

If Rivera is "average" or "overvalued" or "overrated" or "expendable," then why don't other pitchers/closers do what he does for as long as he's done it? Why can't we compare his success -- both individual and team-wise -- to others, especially in the postseason?

I finally had to start shutting up re: Jackson and give him his due. If Jackson isn't great, a legend, worth respecting, recognizing and admiring on a national level, then who is? If Rivera isn't, then who is?

I've seen similar posts lately about Peyton Manning, who I don't like personally either. But goddam, at some point, you have to just tip your cap to these guys, because in the grand scheme of things, being a "legend" or a "superstar" is A) relative to the time and competition around them, and B) proven through longevity.

Jackson did it. Mo Rivera did it. Manning is doing it. If you don't like these cats, fine. But it's a pretty slippery slope you're getting on if you don't think they're worth the attention. In 10, 20 or 50 years, they'll all be considered icons of their craft. So sit back, relax and appreciate what they've proven and accomplished in their overall body of work, rather than nitpicking and stat-searching to try and prove otherwise in vain.

[ZetaPsi808]

If he was just average, who the hell would you classify as above average?

[Ratpack]

didnt eric gagne win a cy being a clsoer YES he did so closers won cy youngs but the best closer of all time never won a cy young is kind of odd

[RudyRuetigger]

If he was just average, who the hell would you classify as above average?

goddamn pal, i listed the numbers for you twice that ttwarrior already posted. his save numbers are fukkin average.

era matters for starting pitching, not closing.

and if having a marble mouthed prick backing you doesnt prove my point, nothing will.

[TheMLBKing]

rivera is there for his head (mental ability in playoffs) and body (longevity of career). period. not for being a great pitcher.

you can argue he only threw one pitch and still got guys out. i can argue whos fault is that he only had one pitch? it is about getting guys out, and saving the fukkin game.....and i hate to break it to you, he was average at that.

hands down the dumbest thing I've read on this site. And that's saying something.

[EaglesPhan36]

It's more about the man than the stats, although everything is impressive.

All-Time Saves Leader. Core Four member for a dominant team during his prime.

But the man and the respect he got and gave to the game is why he got the farewell tour, probably more deservedly than Cal Ripken, Jr. who got the same treatment. Ripken got his tour for one accomplishment, longevity in a time when players don't always play every day.

[BennyBigNuts]

Deuce and Ratpack win Co- Dumbfukk of the month awards. Congrats jerkoffs.

[RudyRuetigger]

one more time::::

Teams leading by one run after eight innings have gone on to win 85.7 percent of the time. That number goes up to 93.7 percent when leading by two runs, and 97.5 percent when leading by three runs.
Mull that over, and then please tell me why Rivera is so amazing for having an 89.1 percent career save rate (which, by the way, is lower than Joe Nathan's). Because, basically, Rivera was not used except in games the Yankees were going to win 88 percent of the time anyway. Actually, the percentages were usually higher than that. According to Elias, of Rivera's 652 career saves, just under a third (210) were with a one-run lead when he took the mound while 216 were with a two-run lead, 180 with a three-run lead and 46 with a lead of at least four runs.

oh ok.

[opie1988]

one more time::::

Teams leading by one run after eight innings have gone on to win 85.7 percent of the time. That number goes up to 93.7 percent when leading by two runs, and 97.5 percent when leading by three runs.
Mull that over, and then please tell me why Rivera is so amazing for having an 89.1 percent career save rate (which, by the way, is lower than Joe Nathan's). Because, basically, Rivera was not used except in games the Yankees were going to win 88 percent of the time anyway. Actually, the percentages were usually higher than that. According to Elias, of Rivera's 652 career saves, just under a third (210) were with a one-run lead when he took the mound while 216 were with a two-run lead, 180 with a three-run lead and 46 with a lead of at least four runs.

I think what we've really learned from this thread, is that its fairly clear Joe Nathan is then greatest closer of all-time.

Way to go, Joe!

[Boner_18]

Deucer is a baseball rook. It's called a retirement tour. Been part of the game for a long time. Don't worry about it pal, you'll learn the nuances of the game as you watch more and more.

[Deuce]

Walker loves traffic and fight threads. Paycheck earned.

[Monchito]

Most career saves

[wagerjunkie]

hands down the dumbest thing I've read on this site. And that's saying something.

didnt eric gagne win a cy being a clsoer YES he did so closers won cy youngs but the best closer of all time never won a cy young is kind of odd

this might be dumber

[InTheDrink]

troll central

what a waste of time this thread became

roody is smarter than this

deudecer isnt

dedeurere is a fukkin loudmouthed douche

[InTheDrink]

think of it like this most of us havent seen bob gibson, cy young, mickey mantle, and all those other guys but we know most of their stats and people talk about them consistently. 50 years from now will our grandchildren know marianos stats like we know all those other guys now MOST LIKELY NO.

so because youre not smart enough to remember the stats make them less worthy

what a fukkin idiot

[ZetaPsi808]

goddamn pal, i listed the numbers for you twice that ttwarrior already posted. his save numbers are fukkin average.

era matters for starting pitching, not closing.


and if having a marble mouthed prick backing you doesnt prove my point, nothing will.

come at me bro

i am ready to keyboard battle with you