[poochiecollins]

You think scoring a TD with 59 mins to go in the game is the same as scoring a TD with 1 min to go?

7 points is 7 points.

Then I guess Rodgers and the other 30 QBs that have thrown a TD in the 1st QT should be mentioned in the same breath as Montana, Elway and Brady then.

Rodgers has been playing for how long? I'm not arguing that Rodgers is a better QB than Favre is btw, even at the moment; only that it was the right decision for GB to let him go.

Where did you read that teams leading after 1QT win 75% of the time? Cite it. I seriously doubt such data exists (otherwise u would have cited it). If it does, I guarantee leading after the 3QT has a higher win% than 1QT.

It couldn't have been that I've read said statistic in some article years ago and have no idea what to search. Of course leading after 3Q is better than after 1Q, but neither of this is important because of what I'm about to explain.

The real question is, when is it more important to play at your best; early in the game or late? Early on, most of the playbook is open, so most instances when a QB passes, it will be easier to throw down the field than late. More scores actually occur late because of more forced plays, which doesn't change this argument. It's logical. In baseball, you'd rather hit your best early than have to do so against the other team's best short-term pitcher (closer).

[poochiecollins]

These are the facts and they are not in dispute: Since Brett left GB: 17 wins - 8 losses (and that's including the last two months of the season last year after he hurt his shoulder) Since Rodgers took over as starting QB in GB 10 wins - 14 losses And Brett is 2 - 0 against Rodgers and the Packers since he left... Doc

This means mostly nothing. Robert Horry has 7 rings, so is he better than almost everyone else who's played in the NBA?

[poochiecollins]

Rodgers could play behind an all-pro line and he'd still be sacked. The problem is he holds onto the ball too damn long.

Despite my pro-Rodgers arguing, I get the impression that this is true, though I don't see and know what Rodgers and the Packers do.

I'm going to emphasize to the Rodgers haters two points I mentioned on the first page: Rodgers' rushing yards might completely make up for the extra sacks he takes, and Rodgers costs less. In fact, up until this year, Rodgers cost a small fraction of what Favre did. Another thing is that Favre wasn't even supposed to be playing now.

[daggerkobe]

7 points is 7 points.

Lets say a team is leading 21-0 (7 FGs) and scores a TD with a min left in the game. Does their TD have the same importance & value to you as a team down 21-17 and scoring the TD? 7 is 7, correct?


Rodgers has been playing for how long? I'm not arguing that Rodgers is a better QB than Favre is btw, even at the moment; only that it was the right decision for GB to let him go.

Yet you compare him to Favre.


It couldn't have been that I've read said statistic in some article years ago and have no idea what to search. Of course leading after 3Q is better than after 1Q, but neither of this is important because of what I'm about to explain.

If you cant cite it, why even bring it up then? It just makes it look like an attempt to win an argument with BS stats.



The real question is, when is it more important to play at your best; early in the game or late? Early on, most of the playbook is open, so most instances when a QB passes, it will be easier to throw down the field than late. More scores actually occur late because of more forced plays, which doesn't change this argument. It's logical. In baseball, you'd rather hit your best early than have to do so against the other team's best short-term pitcher (closer).

Of course a team would rather be up 28-0 in the first qt and not be down late in the game. But to say a QB is good at the end of games because he has to force things is ridiculous. If its easy why dont every QB do it? Why have there been only handful of QBs that have been able to do it? Because it's alot harder. There's more pressure, the defense knows you must throw every down so they come after you, and the clock is against you.

Its the same in baseball. Why is Reggie Jackson called Mr October and not Mr April? And why is David Ortiz considered one of the best hitters in history? Is it due to all his 1st inning HRs or does it have to do with his 20+ walk off hits as a Red Sox?

[daggerkobe]

This means mostly nothing. Robert Horry has 7 rings, so is he better than almost everyone else who's played in the NBA?

Horry is considered one of the clutchest shooters of all time. The fact is, his teams wouldnt have won those 7 rings without him. We're not talking about Adam Morrison here who got a ring with the Lakers contributing about as much as u and I.

[Scorpion]

Favre is 95x the QB Rodgers why sink your own organization, hell if Favre wants to come back let him come back at least hes not throwin 2 yrd wide open incompletes on 4th and goal

If you were dating a supermodel and fukin her every night then she said she wanted to breakup and you start dating a fukin hog would you tell her to fuk off when she wants to come back a month later bc youve gotten used to the hog

Rodgers killed GB today

Rodgers = SHIT, and he knows it too

[daggerkobe]

Despite my pro-Rodgers arguing, I get the impression that this is true, though I don't see and know what Rodgers and the Packers do.

I'm going to emphasize to the Rodgers haters two points I mentioned on the first page: Rodgers' rushing yards might completely make up for the extra sacks he takes, and Rodgers costs less. In fact, up until this year, Rodgers cost a small fraction of what Favre did. Another thing is that Favre wasn't even supposed to be playing now.

What good is 6-10 record and missing the playoffs every season?

Their loud booing of Rodgers in their game against the Vikings show their true feelings. They would take Favre back in a heartbeat.

[daneblazer]

that's what the Packers get for drafting Scott Stapp to be their Qb of the future

[bettilimbroke999]

Despite my pro-Rodgers arguing, I get the impression that this is true, though I don't see and know what Rodgers and the Packers do.

I'm going to emphasize to the Rodgers haters two points I mentioned on the first page: Rodgers' rushing yards might completely make up for the extra sacks he takes, and Rodgers costs less. In fact, up until this year, Rodgers cost a small fraction of what Favre did. Another thing is that Favre wasn't even supposed to be playing now.

What an argument, your mom will get pissed if your on the computer past ur bedtime

You could pay nothin and have terrible players that doesn't make them as good as hall of famers just bc u paid less

[lakerboy]

When a great QB leaves it is always hard to replace hiom. Look at SF and Mia

[jsmithj88]

if favre was on this team are they even a superbowl contender?
i dont think so
their defense isnt that good

[Doc JS]

This means mostly nothing. Robert Horry has 7 rings, so is he better than almost everyone else who's played in the NBA?

Means a lot more than "mostly nothing"...

The comparison is between two guys who play the same position and played for the same team...the GM Ted Thompson decided to "go in another direction"...the question the is: Which QB has been "better" since the split...wins and losses are how you answer that question in the NFL...and the answer, as I said, is: these are the facts and they are not in dispute...

But thanks for playing!!!

Doc

[yisman]

wins and losses are not how you answer the question, unless you think the quarterback is solely responsible for whether the team wins or loses.

Oh wait, some uninformed fans do think that...

[poochiecollins]

7 points is 7 points. Lets say a team is leading 21-0 (7 FGs) and scores a TD with a min left in the game. Does their TD have the same importance & value to you as a team down 21-17 and scoring the TD? 7 is 7, correct?

I meant in the context you said, early verses late in the game. Don't play lawyer.

Yet you compare him to Favre.

For reasons I've gone over in detail in this thread. Don't play lawyer.

If you cant cite it, why even bring it up then? It just makes it look like an attempt to win an argument with BS stats.

You've never told someone information based on something you've read or merely heard somewhere? It's rhetorical, because of course you have. Everyone has. Don't play lawyer!

Of course a team would rather be up 28-0 in the first qt and not be down late in the game. But to say a QB is good at the end of games because he has to force things is ridiculous. If its easy why dont every QB do it? Why have there been only handful of QBs that have been able to do it? Because it's alot harder. There's more pressure, the defense knows you must throw every down so they come after you, and the clock is against you. Its the same in baseball. Why is Reggie Jackson called Mr October and not Mr April? And why is David Ortiz considered one of the best hitters in history? Is it due to all his 1st inning HRs or does it have to do with his 20+ walk off hits as a Red Sox?

A lot of this doesn't have anything to do with what I said. I was talking about the time frame in a game, and the time. Of course if it's late and tight, the outcome of plays are more important than other random points, but if team trying to come from behind scored more early, they wouldn't be in that situation to begin with. If two players have equal stats, the one who has higher numbers in "clutch" situations is the most valuable player, yes. This isn't a time-of-the-game issue; it's how well one plays when the game's competitive. Playoff games are more important than regular season games, no kidding. Ortiz is hardly one of the best hitters ever. He's one of the best "clutch" hitters ever.

[poochiecollins]

Horry is considered one of the clutchest shooters of all time. The fact is, his teams wouldnt have won those 7 rings without him. We're not talking about Adam Morrison here who got a ring with the Lakers contributing about as much as u and I.

His yearly salary has been around the league average through his career. His career stats are hardly impressive. Good, clutch player for a good team, but if he had such a big hand in outcomes, he'd get offered more money. Very replaceable.

[poochiecollins]

What an argument, your mom will get pissed if your on the computer past ur bedtime You could pay nothin and have terrible players that doesn't make them as good as hall of famers just bc u paid less

So I say I think you're a kid, and you reply with an I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I type comeback? Lame. Way to still ignore all my points in this thread, even after I call you out for it. About the emoticons, you'd think you'd at least try to disguise that high likelihood you're ~15 after I say I think you're a minor.

poochiecollins: 2
bettilimbroke999: 0

[poochiecollins]

Means a lot more than "mostly nothing"... The comparison is between two guys who play the same position and played for the same team...the GM Ted Thompson decided to "go in another direction"...the question the is: Which QB has been "better" since the split...wins and losses are how you answer that question in the NFL...and the answer, as I said, is: these are the facts and they are not in dispute... But thanks for playing!!! Doc

My other posts in the thread addressed how the '07 and '08 GB teams were statistically different outside passing offense and a number of other reasons why keeping Rodgers has turned out to be the better move.

[gotemcoach1523]

farve is going to go nowhere this year. i hate all these horrible teams with good record.

[daggerkobe]

His yearly salary has been around the league average through his career. His career stats are hardly impressive. Good, clutch player for a good team, but if he had such a big hand in outcomes, he'd get offered more money. Very replaceable.

What does salary have to do with anything? There are dozens of players that are paid more but didn't have 1/100th the impact he did. Plus he was hansomely paid for a part-time player.

Btw, Horry made more money than Kareem, does that mean he was better?

[bettilimbroke999]

poochiecollins IQ: 2

No argument

[The Seer]

I think one of the intangibles that is being overlooked is that Favre elevates the play of those around him which is another reason Green Bay was better with him. He just has "it" that other good athletes don't.

[2daBank]

RODGERS REMINDS ME MORE OF JEFF GEORGE every time i see him not exactly same but like how every1 loved that guy and his cannon arm and look how his career went.. so sick of hearing what rodgers does well. lets focus on the things he sux at which happen to be the most important tools a qb needs.
he cannot process and read a d for shit it looks as if by time he plants his bak foot on his drop he still has know clue where the ball is going which leads 2 problem number 2 happy feet! blame there line all you want and sure it is weak. but no1 can block for 8 dam seconds!! this guy is terrible decision maker holds ball way to long and bottom line he is not or never will be a winner..RODGER F3KIN RABBIT ALWAYS HOPIN AROUND LIKE A DAM FOOL TRY 5 STEPS PLANT FOOT THROW BALL CAUSE THIS WHOLE 5 STEPS THAN LOOK DOWN FIELD SHIT WONT GET IT DONE IN THE NFL

[BadNina]

There are too many words in this thread for me to read but I have to say this (and it pains me) I agree with Dagger.

[daggerkobe]

I meant in the context you said, early verses late in the game. Don't play lawyer.

No one is arguing a TD is not worth 7 pts. But you can't tell me in a tied or close game, you'd rather score the TD in the first min rather than the last min of the game. A TD in the first quarter could be one of 10 TDs you score the rest of the game.

Since you seem to be a stats geek, why don't you tell me how many TDs scored in the first 5 minutes of the game ended up being the game winning score as opposed to the last 5 minutes of the game?

[b] For reasons I've gone over in detail in this thread. Don't play lawyer.

I'm not a lawyer nor play one on SBR. You compared Rodgers to Favre and said his stats were pretty much identical (except wins), did you not? Well, Rodgers' stats were better than Montana's best season... does that make him a better QB?

[b]You've never told someone information based on something you've read or merely heard somewhere? It's rhetorical, because of course you have. Everyone has. Don't play lawyer!

Hearsay is not factual. I would never use hearsay or unsubstantiated information to pass off as fact, especially when the debate revolves around stats. It's almost as bad as posting chain letters.

[b]
A lot of this doesn't have anything to do with what I said. I was talking about the time frame in a game, and the time. Of course if it's late and tight, the outcome of plays are more important than other random points, but if team trying to come from behind scored more early, they wouldn't be in that situation to begin with. If two players have equal stats, the one who has higher numbers in "clutch" situations is the most valuable player, yes. This isn't a time-of-the-game issue; it's how well one plays when the game's competitive. Playoff games are more important than regular season games, no kidding. Ortiz is hardly one of the best hitters ever. He's one of the best "clutch" hitters ever.

Then tell me..... why has more teams comeback from 21-0 1st quarter deficits than 21-0 4th quarter deficits? Same in baseball, I've seen numerous teams score 4 runs or more in the 1st inning only to lose. But when they score 4 runs or more in the 7th, 8th, 9th, it's usually a win.

The fact of the matter is, when you're behind late in games, Brett Favre will bring you back and win. Just like Big Papi delivers in the 9th. Anyone can score a TD in the 1st minutes of the game or hit a HR in the 1st inning. But add the extra pressure, the "prevent" defense and the expiring clock and not many QBs can do what Favre, Montana, Elway and Brady can do. Which is what seperates them from the hundreds of others that played their position.

[The Seer]

RODGERS REMINDS ME MORE OF JEFF GEORGE

definitely comparable

[The Seer]

Favre is a proven winner. Rogers is not. The Packers rolled the dice and they crapped out. Lesson here: never pass on proven ability for youth and potential. There was a coach that once said "his potential is gonna get me fired".

[2daBank]

for everything i just said bout rodger rabbit... i gotta say this also his garbage coaching staff isnt doing him any favors. i dont think there another team i watch that runs more plays that i sit back thinkin wtf is coach retarded!!! playcalling on that team is a freakin joke

[jsmithj88]

i agree with that, rodgers isnt the one running a million passing plays
wasnt tampa soft against the run to begin with?
i dunno why u dudes were against GB letting favre go
it was the rite decision to make, u cant have a QB telling u hes gonna retire every year
why is nobody ripping the jets for letting favre get out of his contract?

[Art Vandelay]

Not a doubt in the world that going with Rodgers was the right call. It was time to move on - Favre did retire, remember - and we couldn't let Rodgers sit as the backup for 5-6 years. It was a great call by Thompson. The problem is Teddy had his new franchise QB but he has done nothing to help protect him. I just hope ARod survives the season.

[2daBank]

cause favre made clear 2 the jets he only went there cause gb wasnt lettin him go to min...
ok if gb was sik of putting up w 1 of the best ever mabey they should have tried 2 find a guy instead of hanging there hat on rodger rabbit!! the guy is not a winner! i dont care how much tv ppl scouts and every1 suks him off. bottom line is if he cant process information fast enough to know where the ball going on time hit that 3rd 5th 7th step drop and fire ball on time he not ever gonna win. i mean can you honestly say you neva seen this it looks like he doesnt even start thinkin bout where the ball going until after his drop. ball should b gone and he just starting 2 pay attention next thing you know pressure has arrived cause he hasnt thrown ball oh wait now we get 2 see his happy feet(or some call it great scrambling ability) dont trust the guy how many years will pack fans suffer b4 they decide all that potential dont mean shit

[slacker00]

1. Comparing Rodgers to a slam dunk HOFer is going to make Rodgers look mortal. Yeah, no shit. Favre is great, yeah, we get that. Rodgers is going to have some growing pains, yeah, we get that.

2. The Packers' problems extend WAY beyond the QB position. With as much talent as GB has on D, the defense should be able to shut down a rookie QB. The GB offensive line is pathetic. Even special teams leaves a lot to be desired. If you want to crucify Rodgers for the Packers' woes, you're missing the point.

3. I do think the jury is out on Rodgers. He hasn't proven to be a clutch QB. The loss against the Bucs is another example of how he can't close out the tight games or engineer a game winning drive. Most of Rodgers' wins are lopsided type games. Rodgers hasn't proven to be a clutch player at all, IMHO. This is a very big problem because all of the great QBs are best known for their ability to win in the clutch. It's a very bad sign that this seems to be Rodgers' weakest characteristic.


In conclusition, the Packers' season is over. The defensive experiment is a flop, there doesn't seem to be enough chemistry with the current configuration of talent on this team. The offensive line needs to be rebuilt this offseason. Rodgers needs to cut his teeth and get over the hump of making the big plays when then game is on the line, he needs to be a better 2 minute drill QB. Even though this season is a wash, hopefully the team can continue to grow to a point to where they have something to build on for next year.

[Doc JS]

My other posts in the thread addressed how the '07 and '08 GB teams were statistically different outside passing offense and a number of other reasons why keeping Rodgers has turned out to be the better move.

Keep telling yourself that...

Since Brett left GB:
17 wins - 8 losses (and that's including the last two months of the season last year after he hurt his shoulder)

Since Rodgers took over as starting QB in GB
10 wins - 14 losses

And Brett is 2 - 0 against Rodgers and the Packers since he left...

[Mr Handicapable]

Favre would be in intensive care in Milwaukee if he was behind that O-line! Rodgers played like $hit vs Tampa and it cost most NFL bettors this week (including me) but when you're getting pounded EVERY week at some point you're going to start throwing off your back foot and making mistakes...its inevitable!
Minnesota on the other hand...has the best RB in the NFL and probably a top 3 O-line too! Not to mention a defense thats 3x better than Green Bay's defense!

[Sekrah]

This thread is still going on with clueless Rogers butt-boys?! Wow.

All of these people rambling on and on making all these excuses for Rogers are simply Favre-haters who were screaming he was washed up and they are looking dead ****ing stupid now.

Favre would be intensive car in Milwaukee behind that O-Line? What kind of ****ing idiot are you? He's the toughest QB to ever play the god damn game and anyone with an ounce of a brain knows this. He goes out there hurt, stands in the pocket and hits his WRs down the field while taking massive shots. He's done this his entire career.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/64282382.html

Green Bay - The day after the loss to the Vikings, coach Mike McCarthy clearly said quarterback Aaron Rodgers was partly to blame for some of the eight sacks the Packers had.

"There's definitely some that fell on the quarterback and the protection unit. A number of them could have been avoided, clearly."

McCarthy said the gameplan going in was to throw the ball quickly against a very good Vikings defense and in the raucous atmosphere inside the Metrodome;

"He had some plays that he's gonna wish he had back. We didn't call a lot of plays where we were holding the ball. That was part of the design. When you play up there in that noise, they're playing a little bit downhill on you when they know it's a pass. I think that's evident to everybody. Holding the ball sometimes is not what we want to do."

McCarthy even explained the progression Rodgers has on each play:

He only has three reads in the whole offense. He has what we refer to as a pure progression read, where you create a triangle with the pass concept, and I tell him exactly who 1, 2 and 3 are. You either throw it to 1, 2 or 3. The second read is the progression or an option. You throw it to 1, 2 or 3, or there's an option built in based on the coverage. And the third read is what we refer to as a PSL, pre-snap look, that tells you to work one side or the other. So when you stay in tune with that, the time clock fits, and it's tied to the protection. Those are the types of things that are very basic...They did some different things with their coverage as far as holding their safeties and things. But you have to trust the read, trust the read, and that didn't happen all the time. There's a few plays I'm sure he'll wish he had back.


Let me guess, all you Favre hating meatheads with foam coming out of your mouths know more about the Green Bay system and plays being called than the Head Coach of the team.


Favre had mediocre O-Lines most of his career. The poorer the O-Line he had, the quicker he got rid of the ball. He's not a ****ing idiot like Rogers standing back there until someone beats his brains. You think Peyton Manning is going to ****ing get sacked like Rogers is right now?

Like I said, it all comes down to the Favre-haters who can't admit they were wrong.

[jsmithj88]

cause favre made clear 2 the jets he only went there cause gb wasnt lettin him go to min... ok if gb was sik of putting up w 1 of the best ever mabey they should have tried 2 find a guy instead of hanging there hat on rodger rabbit!! the guy is not a winner! i dont care how much tv ppl scouts and every1 suks him off. bottom line is if he cant process information fast enough to know where the ball going on time hit that 3rd 5th 7th step drop and fire ball on time he not ever gonna win. i mean can you honestly say you neva seen this it looks like he doesnt even start thinkin bout where the ball going until after his drop. ball should b gone and he just starting 2 pay attention next thing you know pressure has arrived cause he hasnt thrown ball oh wait now we get 2 see his happy feet(or some call it great scrambling ability) dont trust the guy how many years will pack fans suffer b4 they decide all that potential dont mean shit

wat u really meant to say is that he told the Jets he RETIRED .......... AGAIN!
then asked to be released, and the jets were stupid enough to do it
then the vikings went after him, and he said NOOOOOO
then he changed his mind again, and here he is