[Flyboys]

The why:


A few weeks ago, I got involved with SBR when I became aware that there was a possibility that a scamdicapper that I had helped to "out" elsewhere had shown up here under a different handle. Although no vet would've been naive enough to fall for his song-and-dance, he wasn't out for those people. He had a specific MO previously used, really targeted newbies, and after a few days here we verified who it was and dealt with it. Unfortunately a few got hit--if not with purchases, but by following and losing.


While sports gambling can be an interesting, if usually losing, proposition, sports investing is a unique diversion and can prove to be quite profitable. Back in the 90s, I was a naive young kid with too much money and not enough sense and got burned not once but twice by big names. Was about to happen again until I was literally sat down by an individual who showed me the reality of such marketers...but he did much more. He helped explain concepts and methods that had been foreign to me, all the while allowing me to discover things over the course of time on my own. Some of these things I could have just been told, but they were so much more valuable to discover on my own...to have an "a-ha" moment--he also stuck his neck out for me to help me out of a huge hole. I like to look out for these people who remind me of me twenty years ago. I honestly can't say I am paying anything forward, because with what was done for me to allow me the success I have had, I can probably never "pay it back" ...


Today it is even tougher as a new sports better. Any hack can set up a website. There is twitter. There are forums like these. With all that was done for me in days of naiveté, trying to expose scams and trying to offer advice is paying back a debt for a grateful service. Exposing "cashmyticket" and being involved in calling out this Gorilla George garbage is something I enjoy almost as much as beating Vegas.


It was during that time where I noticed some oddities and I began examining Doc's. I do not believe they are a non-existent scam...but I do believe they are much more a sales and marketing outfit than they are cappers. They clearly use deception in their tactics...post false records...and the tracking services (and trackers here) show they simply aren't very good.


What I will present is for your use as you wish. I particularly became involved in this process looking at an interesting orange play in late January, followed by another "top play" a few days later that I knew was very suspicious...I then saw an abundance of top plays coming out that were disproportionate to other service's releases, ramped up marketing, "50% off" sales. It just so happened that this "marketing blitz" of big plays literally began within a day of RAS going dark...so I researched a bit more. I certainly am aware of the video that was taken down in December where IC admitted that Doc made him "step out" more often than he would like. However, as Doc's is not included in the very short list of cappers whose analysis I consider, it did take just a little investigation to realize that the number of plays that are released as "top" for independent verification are FAR fewer than the released top plays...in other words, all of these orange and red games that are marketed for sale are not actually rated that high in reality. Sure a few wise ones had openly wondered and sought to warn others. Now, however, the verification was unquestionable and from an independent source.


My original intent was to track Doc's orange/red. That will be the primary focus on a day-to-day basis. Doc's orange/red records as a whole and individual big game records since they began this marketing blitz will be posted. Over the course of today, I will make a post about each capper, and will list the specific game information where my records were derived from. Following these initial posts, I will update daily. Information from independent sources will also be used to help show records prior.


From the start, the point of this is never was to track all bets, just the big plays. One person I suspect has ties to the service in question has already demanded complete season records, and you won't get those from me. I will tell you in advance--because I have seen it happen--that the shills will push back on this. Heck, even when I provided season numbers on Doc himself, one shill already jumped on me a few days ago, and quoted a profit figure right from Doc's site.


However, I don't think season numbers are as important as the shills will insist they are and in some respects I believe not openly disclosing everything is beneficial. Why? As stated above, many years ago I was educated, not just told. I don't want you to just listen to me. I also don't think it wise to just listen to the shills that will try to muddy the waters with minutia...I want you to investigate for yourselves. With the big play information I will present, along with an abundance of additional information, I won't have just laid the foundation. The foundation will have been laid, the frame will be up, the electrical in, and the drywall on. You need just slap a few coats of paint on the walls and lay some carpet.


What this will provide is an opportunity to do something any capper should be doing...use their math skills. When you see the records on "big plays" for most of the marketers, at Doc's, it will only take a little algebra and freshman statistics to calculate how outrageous the win percentage on the presumably weaker blue and green plays would have to be for these salesman to even break even, let alone post the profits they claim.


At times I have included some overall records, but not because I expect the shills to demand it. While my primary intent is to expose their big play marketing scheme for what it is, it certainly lends credence to any argument when we have solid, monitored data that conflicts with the puffed up records they advertise.


***
Now I apologize to those that have PM'd me asking "where is it?" I had promised this information by yesterday morning. One shill has even taken the opportunity to imply I turned tail. The delay has been valid and for a number of reasons. My standard PM answer has essentially been based on #1, below, but here is why:


1) During the process of outing cashmyticket, I violated a number of rules that I was not familiar with. In different locations, links, screenshots, twitter posts, etc. are allowable, but not here. I used these during that process, and was reprimanded. I have had several PM's back and forth with admin and hope to be providing acceptable information...but the fact is, you may have to do some digging. While I may want to post certain things in their entirety, I cannot. While I may want to cut and paste garbage records direct from a site, or provide links, I cannot. I can paraphrase and I invite people to do some independent verification if they so choose. digging. Again, I don't ask you to take my word for it; I invite you to verify it.


2) I have acquired much information, the sheer volume of which is amazing in the story it tells. As I began to investigate records more closely, it became more apparent that spending time dissecting games to produce winners was not weighted as heavily by Doc's as touting their service with false records was. There is an abundance of verifiable numbers from monitors or posters that are way off from what Doc's claims. At that point, it was fully decided that this was going to be more than just tracking a poor service...it also became exposing fraud.


That said, the more ammo the better. I was waiting for the return of more specific data--had contacted Ruth--and that information takes time. One of the monitoring services only updates weekly, was due to have an update NLT this yesterday AM, but the NBA did not come out until this AM and the NCAAB late afternoon.


3) As those of us with experience have always done, there is behind the scenes..and this takes time. Despite the voluminous information you will soon see, a good 25% of it is in my back pocket...Why? There are "defenders" here. Anytime a member of Doc's would get called out, several will pounce. Every time a line is questioned, most of the same will insist that they got the posted line. They were examined and previous posts reviewed. From previous experience, we have found this to be very beneficial, if time consuming.


It is common practice to plant shills in forums. Jimmy Feist and his "Inner Circle" , Jimmy Hurley, and the Chimberes/Vaccaro/Warren trio were famous for it in the not-so-distant past when forums such as these began. Most of those guys are so known now that they are brushed off by serious sports investors and they have to focus their marketing efforts on new blood.


That said, the methods they used remain. As I researched it became clear that the same tactics like we used to see across the street are prevalent here concerning one particular service, Doc's. Clearly there are people who are here daily and do little else on SBR other than log in and monitor Doc threads a few times a day. They will ask if anyone has bought the crew's plays, post positive comments, and jump on anyone critical.


If a bigger threat/argument against Doc's comes along, there are others that come out of the woodwork. This is classic practice. When people dare get critical of Doc's on SBR, you find people who have been members for 1-2-3 years but have only posted 25/50/100 times just happen to SUDDENLY appear with comments either defending Doc's or attacking the poster. Odd how they only show up at those times, eh?


Now these guys are not idiots anymore. The daily shills might sprinkle in a tepid comment now and again. Looking at the history of those rare posters (probably same guy different account) we can see they sprinkle in a little comment here or there on another subject but almost all posts defend a particular service. Give em credit... They are not like the idiots like those involved with touting cashmyticket or gorilla. Doc's woodwork defenders did not join the day they begin commenting/touting. They have seasoned registrations they access for very times such as these. These people want business for the service they represent, so it is always best to have an ace in the hole when they attack. However, our last efforts across the street produced something unique from the touts and shills. After a token effort, they chose to completely ignore. I can only wish for such, but am not hopeful. I can tell you often times they try to debate/intellectually contest statements, but when that fails, the posts become less about reason and more about personal attacks. In the three days since announcing my intention to do this, it has even happened to me with two different people. Start the smear campaign before the message gets out.


***


There are several facts I will present that are irrefutable. For a reasonable person, such data can do nothing but allow for negative conclusions about this service...


There is other information that is clearly fact, not opinion, but different people may draw a different conclusion than I do. For instance, the deception/ lies/ sales pitch. For example, the information presented as far as deceptive tactics is uncontestable. This alone might be enough for some, regsrdless of record. They may say to themselves, "if a service lies about X, I can't trust them about Y?"...others may say, "who cares if they lie as long as they win?" This is the area I ultimately believe the shills will make their stand. In fact, that has been said to me, to which I contend a dishonest capper won't change it's stripes. Eventually they will do things like release plays rated "orange" or "red" that really aren't that good (IC's removed video, anyone?). Integrity does matter to me, but even if you don't care, wouldn't you think if someone was really winning they wouldn't need to deceive--or outright lie--on their website as part of the marketing scheme?


This group is a marketing machine. Since RAS went dark, they have gone crazy. We have seen 30+ top plays from this single service of 7 cappers in three weeks. We see lots of service plays here at SBR, from many more cappers than just the seven at Doc's. Of course much more detail can be seen across the street, but I have found only one "known" commodity with even four top plays. Kelso, who went 0-3-1 on these marketing plays. There is one other "capper" who releases some big plays, good ol Leinenkugel. Although they are not color coded here, they would be considered big from the rating across the street. However, I am not sure about including him, because unlike light blue to bold red, the difference in his colors would be closer to , how shall I say it...Pluto for low and inside the sun for big. It's bogus, but even if we include him, Doc's is releasing so many more big plays per capper than anyone else combined over this period...and even more since mid-Jan then they since the start of the year.


You may do with the information what you please. After this initial series of posts over today, I will continue with the Orange/red update. I will respond to all reasonable posts, but won't be offering any responses until all my posts intended for today are up. It's also Valentine's day, and my priority will not be anything sports related after about 6pm, so some responses may come tomorrow.


You will also see some sports investing recommendations from me. The insight may not be as valuable for a seasoned vet set in his ways, but novice cappers should find benefit. I do not "use" a service, but there are a few I "follow". I use them as an adjunct to my own capping, not to make plays. I may increase a bet I already planned or decrease a bet I already planned based on their commentary. This is for full disclosure. So as not to be accused of shilling myself, these services will not be named.


I wish any real capper or aspiring sports investor the best of luck!

[Britton333]

First off, I appreciate you taking the time and putting this all together and I look forward to seeing all the results of your research.

I do want to ask you a quick question and hope you give me a sincere response. I feel like you've labeled me as a shill and referenced me a couple times, albeit unnamed. In all your RESEARCH, did you not see my DOC'S BEWARE thread where I smash on them for their shoddy customer-service and lying about their records using selective manipulating endpoints. Did you not see the large argument MattyGPA and I had on RF's Miami GAME OF THE YEAR, where I actually got a LOSS and he was bragging about RF winning? Did you not see me outing Doc's NBA horrific season and even start a tracking thread so we can get exact truth (even in as limited to that sport). I've smashed on different Doc's cappers time and again, and then there have been times I've defended them in some aspects against generalizations. I do think a couple of those guys have a decent grasp on a couple of sports. I'm simply trying to find them since, for the most part, they are posted here free of charge, and secondly, I really don't know who else is consistently good out there aside from RAS.

I hope no one ever gives one cent to Doc's.

[PuckIt]

Whoa, cliff notes?

Doing a quick skim it seems you're trying to establish that Docs uses crafty and deceptive marketing tactics to make their numbers look way better than they really are...right?

I think that's been established for quite some time. They don't lie, but they don't tell you the whole truth either. Their numbers are available, but not easy to add up. They are masters in the art of selective marketing and honestly it's kinda impressive.

[Kubie217]

what happened to secisgreat. He disappeared. He was prob a docs shill. Looking forward to seeing your discoverings and I def agree wit u that they are a marketing machine more then cappers All they do is just throw out all these big plays wit no care in the world They hope out of their seven guys a couple of their orange/red dart throwing plays stick and their on forefront of docs page saying how they made all kinds of money for clients. It's a real shame people lost all kinds of money on their deception

[Shanefalco13]

Good post. Only got about half way through since im at work. Reading the rest later but from what I read, you are on point.

[Kubie217]

I think there marketing team is incredible. They should get paid millions how they spin records and tell half truths. Ur right totally correct in what u say. They don't flat out lie but don't come out wit entire truth. That's why I have a lot of respect for ras and there full disclosure Also sbr might as well be called docs. There shills are all over. All there plays are consistently all over board. The got this place on lock

[PuckIt]

I don't see the problem following one of their cappers if they're doing well. If you follow one of them and document their results for the season, there is full disclosure. Without a place like this we would have to rely on their website to get stats, which is obviously not the best place to get the WHOLE truth.

They would make great resume writers, though. Able to put a positive spin on anything!

[Ilv2gambol]

I don't see the problem following one of their cappers if they're doing well. If you follow one of them and document their results for the season, there is full disclosure. Without a place like this we would have to rely on their website to get stats, which is obviously not the best place to get the WHOLE truth.

They would make great resume writers, though. Able to put a positive spin on anything!

Hmm wonder how much they would charge me to do mine? My resume could use some spicing up.

[tjfny]

what happened to secisgreat. He disappeared. He was prob a docs shill. Looking forward to seeing your discoverings and i def agree wit u that they are a marketing machine more then cappers all they do is just throw out all these big plays wit no care in the world they hope out of their seven guys a couple of their orange/red dart throwing plays stick and their on forefront of docs page saying how they made all kinds of money for clients. It's a real shame people lost all kinds of money on their deception

sec=indian cowboy

[Ilv2gambol]

The why:


A few weeks ago, I got involved with SBR when I became aware that there was a possibility that a scamdicapper that I had helped to "out" elsewhere had shown up here under a different handle. Although no vet would've been naive enough to fall for his song-and-dance, he wasn't out for those people. He had a specific MO previously used, really targeted newbies, and after a few days here we verified who it was and dealt with it. Unfortunately a few got hit--if not with purchases, but by following and losing.


While sports gambling can be an interesting, if usually losing, proposition, sports investing is a unique diversion and can prove to be quite profitable. Back in the 90s, I was a naive young kid with too much money and not enough sense and got burned not once but twice by big names. Was about to happen again until I was literally sat down by an individual who showed me the reality of such marketers...but he did much more. He helped explain concepts and methods that had been foreign to me, all the while allowing me to discover things over the course of time on my own. Some of these things I could have just been told, but they were so much more valuable to discover on my own...to have an "a-ha" moment--he also stuck his neck out for me to help me out of a huge hole. I like to look out for these people who remind me of me twenty years ago. I honestly can't say I am paying anything forward, because with what was done for me to allow me the success I have had, I can probably never "pay it back" ...


Today it is even tougher as a new sports better. Any hack can set up a website. There is twitter. There are forums like these. With all that was done for me in days of naiveté, trying to expose scams and trying to offer advice is paying back a debt for a grateful service. Exposing "cashmyticket" and being involved in calling out this Gorilla George garbage is something I enjoy almost as much as beating Vegas.


It was during that time where I noticed some oddities and I began examining Doc's. I do not believe they are a non-existent scam...but I do believe they are much more a sales and marketing outfit than they are cappers. They clearly use deception in their tactics...post false records...and the tracking services (and trackers here) show they simply aren't very good.


What I will present is for your use as you wish. I particularly became involved in this process looking at an interesting orange play in late January, followed by another "top play" a few days later that I knew was very suspicious...I then saw an abundance of top plays coming out that were disproportionate to other service's releases, ramped up marketing, "50% off" sales. It just so happened that this "marketing blitz" of big plays literally began within a day of RAS going dark...so I researched a bit more. I certainly am aware of the video that was taken down in December where IC admitted that Doc made him "step out" more often than he would like. However, as Doc's is not included in the very short list of cappers whose analysis I consider, it did take just a little investigation to realize that the number of plays that are released as "top" for independent verification are FAR fewer than the released top plays...in other words, all of these orange and red games that are marketed for sale are not actually rated that high in reality. Sure a few wise ones had openly wondered and sought to warn others. Now, however, the verification was unquestionable and from an independent source.


My original intent was to track Doc's orange/red. That will be the primary focus on a day-to-day basis. Doc's orange/red records as a whole and individual big game records since they began this marketing blitz will be posted. Over the course of today, I will make a post about each capper, and will list the specific game information where my records were derived from. Following these initial posts, I will update daily. Information from independent sources will also be used to help show records prior.


From the start, the point of this is never was to track all bets, just the big plays. One person I suspect has ties to the service in question has already demanded complete season records, and you won't get those from me. I will tell you in advance--because I have seen it happen--that the shills will push back on this. Heck, even when I provided season numbers on Doc himself, one shill already jumped on me a few days ago, and quoted a profit figure right from Doc's site.


However, I don't think season numbers are as important as the shills will insist they are and in some respects I believe not openly disclosing everything is beneficial. Why? As stated above, many years ago I was educated, not just told. I don't want you to just listen to me. I also don't think it wise to just listen to the shills that will try to muddy the waters with minutia...I want you to investigate for yourselves. With the big play information I will present, along with an abundance of additional information, I won't have just laid the foundation. The foundation will have been laid, the frame will be up, the electrical in, and the drywall on. You need just slap a few coats of paint on the walls and lay some carpet.


What this will provide is an opportunity to do something any capper should be doing...use their math skills. When you see the records on "big plays" for most of the marketers, at Doc's, it will only take a little algebra and freshman statistics to calculate how outrageous the win percentage on the presumably weaker blue and green plays would have to be for these salesman to even break even, let alone post the profits they claim.


At times I have included some overall records, but not because I expect the shills to demand it. While my primary intent is to expose their big play marketing scheme for what it is, it certainly lends credence to any argument when we have solid, monitored data that conflicts with the puffed up records they advertise.


***
Now I apologize to those that have PM'd me asking "where is it?" I had promised this information by yesterday morning. One shill has even taken the opportunity to imply I turned tail. The delay has been valid and for a number of reasons. My standard PM answer has essentially been based on #1, below, but here is why:


1) During the process of outing cashmyticket, I violated a number of rules that I was not familiar with. In different locations, links, screenshots, twitter posts, etc. are allowable, but not here. I used these during that process, and was reprimanded. I have had several PM's back and forth with admin and hope to be providing acceptable information...but the fact is, you may have to do some digging. While I may want to post certain things in their entirety, I cannot. While I may want to cut and paste garbage records direct from a site, or provide links, I cannot. I can paraphrase and I invite people to do some independent verification if they so choose. digging. Again, I don't ask you to take my word for it; I invite you to verify it.


2) I have acquired much information, the sheer volume of which is amazing in the story it tells. As I began to investigate records more closely, it became more apparent that spending time dissecting games to produce winners was not weighted as heavily by Doc's as touting their service with false records was. There is an abundance of verifiable numbers from monitors or posters that are way off from what Doc's claims. At that point, it was fully decided that this was going to be more than just tracking a poor service...it also became exposing fraud.


That said, the more ammo the better. I was waiting for the return of more specific data--had contacted Ruth--and that information takes time. One of the monitoring services only updates weekly, was due to have an update NLT this yesterday AM, but the NBA did not come out until this AM and the NCAAB late afternoon.


3) As those of us with experience have always done, there is behind the scenes..and this takes time. Despite the voluminous information you will soon see, a good 25% of it is in my back pocket...Why? There are "defenders" here. Anytime a member of Doc's would get called out, several will pounce. Every time a line is questioned, most of the same will insist that they got the posted line. They were examined and previous posts reviewed. From previous experience, we have found this to be very beneficial, if time consuming.


It is common practice to plant shills in forums. Jimmy Feist and his "Inner Circle" , Jimmy Hurley, and the Chimberes/Vaccaro/Warren trio were famous for it in the not-so-distant past when forums such as these began. Most of those guys are so known now that they are brushed off by serious sports investors and they have to focus their marketing efforts on new blood.


That said, the methods they used remain. As I researched it became clear that the same tactics like we used to see across the street are prevalent here concerning one particular service, Doc's. Clearly there are people who are here daily and do little else on SBR other than log in and monitor Doc threads a few times a day. They will ask if anyone has bought the crew's plays, post positive comments, and jump on anyone critical.


If a bigger threat/argument against Doc's comes along, there are others that come out of the woodwork. This is classic practice. When people dare get critical of Doc's on SBR, you find people who have been members for 1-2-3 years but have only posted 25/50/100 times just happen to SUDDENLY appear with comments either defending Doc's or attacking the poster. Odd how they only show up at those times, eh?


Now these guys are not idiots anymore. The daily shills might sprinkle in a tepid comment now and again. Looking at the history of those rare posters (probably same guy different account) we can see they sprinkle in a little comment here or there on another subject but almost all posts defend a particular service. Give em credit... They are not like the idiots like those involved with touting cashmyticket or gorilla. Doc's woodwork defenders did not join the day they begin commenting/touting. They have seasoned registrations they access for very times such as these. These people want business for the service they represent, so it is always best to have an ace in the hole when they attack. However, our last efforts across the street produced something unique from the touts and shills. After a token effort, they chose to completely ignore. I can only wish for such, but am not hopeful. I can tell you often times they try to debate/intellectually contest statements, but when that fails, the posts become less about reason and more about personal attacks. In the three days since announcing my intention to do this, it has even happened to me with two different people. Start the smear campaign before the message gets out.


***


There are several facts I will present that are irrefutable. For a reasonable person, such data can do nothing but allow for negative conclusions about this service...


There is other information that is clearly fact, not opinion, but different people may draw a different conclusion than I do. For instance, the deception/ lies/ sales pitch. For example, the information presented as far as deceptive tactics is uncontestable. This alone might be enough for some, regsrdless of record. They may say to themselves, "if a service lies about X, I can't trust them about Y?"...others may say, "who cares if they lie as long as they win?" This is the area I ultimately believe the shills will make their stand. In fact, that has been said to me, to which I contend a dishonest capper won't change it's stripes. Eventually they will do things like release plays rated "orange" or "red" that really aren't that good (IC's removed video, anyone?). Integrity does matter to me, but even if you don't care, wouldn't you think if someone was really winning they wouldn't need to deceive--or outright lie--on their website as part of the marketing scheme?


This group is a marketing machine. Since RAS went dark, they have gone crazy. We have seen 30+ top plays from this single service of 7 cappers in three weeks. We see lots of service plays here at SBR, from many more cappers than just the seven at Doc's. Of course much more detail can be seen across the street, but I have found only one "known" commodity with even four top plays. Kelso, who went 0-3-1 on these marketing plays. There is one other "capper" who releases some big plays, good ol Leinenkugel. Although they are not color coded here, they would be considered big from the rating across the street. However, I am not sure about including him, because unlike light blue to bold red, the difference in his colors would be closer to , how shall I say it...Pluto for low and inside the sun for big. It's bogus, but even if we include him, Doc's is releasing so many more big plays per capper than anyone else combined over this period...and even more since mid-Jan then they since the start of the year.


You may do with the information what you please. After this initial series of posts over today, I will continue with the Orange/red update. I will respond to all reasonable posts, but won't be offering any responses until all my posts intended for today are up. It's also Valentine's day, and my priority will not be anything sports related after about 6pm, so some responses may come tomorrow.


You will also see some sports investing recommendations from me. The insight may not be as valuable for a seasoned vet set in his ways, but novice cappers should find benefit. I do not "use" a service, but there are a few I "follow". I use them as an adjunct to my own capping, not to make plays. I may increase a bet I already planned or decrease a bet I already planned based on their commentary. This is for full disclosure. So as not to be accused of shilling myself, these services will not be named.


I wish any real capper or aspiring sports investor the best of luck!

Subtle brag...

[sunzal]

ok...but with all the research- where are the numbers....what did i miss? i guess i did skim it fast, but i want to see numbers....this is sportsbetting, it's all about the bottom line

while records aren't important, obvioulsy units won are...can someone explain to me why ANYTHING besides units won matters at all? i'm being serious....people spend so much time analyzing cappers- but why should i care about anything but whether they win or lose over a statistically significant period of time....i get called a shill for RF all the time, but all i do is ask for the numbers....if he goes 6-1 on the 2 unit plats and 0-1 on the 7 unit plat---guess what? he's up...and everyone bashes him and says he sucks...but he's up...and i have money in my pocket- and for some reason i'm supposed to accept the fact that he sucks?

the numbers i do care about is how often the lines released by doc's are available at the time they are released...as the year has gone on this has turned into a BIG problem...it was a tiny problem early one- but they seem to have gotten real sketchy recently...as we all know, if you give a stale line of a point on one play a day, in the end it will be a HUGE difference....those are numbers my friend, not things you call "research" but comes out being just a subjective analysis...

enough things in this world are subjective...the beauty of sportbetting is we can make it objective...

[Kubie217]

Sunzal. If u really his post he said he will be putting out numbers later on today to back up his claims. I know it's hard to read wit rf's c o c k in ur mouth. Just take it out for a second and read whole post made by this gentleman

[Britton333]

"It's also Valentine's day, and my priority will not be anything sports related after about 6pm, so some responses may come tomorrow."


What do you get when you cross a brown chicken with a brown cow??

BROWN-CHICKEN-BROWN-COWWWW... (say it aloud quickly)

[Renegades]

I think this is pretty obvious but Ive been around the block. Touts that are legit post their plays after released or update their record everyday win or lose. And the record is for the season. Not "im 12-2 the last 3 weeks"

[ANDTHEWINNERIS]

You can fight these marketeers all you want, and you will make no progress, that is the real lock! This is a 100% unregulated industry, and while those that frequent sports betting forums are aware of all the tricks and marketing gems, the fact is 95% of their business does not come from those in sports betting forums.

We all understand the menality of the sports bettor, just look at the requests here, it is disheartening.

EXAMPLE: "Do you have capper X's Game of the YEAR?"

Countless fraudulent handicappers thriving. WHY? because they have noone to answer to, can post streaks,big games, lie,cheat decieve etc. and no matter how much you call them out, there is someone behind you willing to believe.

I can document a well-known capper that has had 222 game of the year plays in 4 yrs. If you do the math, that is about 1 per week. You know why he has so many? Do I really need to answer that?

I know another well known capper that is down over 1000 units the last 3 years, his plays are requested here frequently, but if you go his website you'd think he was winning big.

The list is endless!

I leave you with some food for thought, if the light goes on for just 1 of you, I'll be overjoyed!

many love the hot capper, the one that is 12-1 in his last 13 picks, he is hot, will win and I'll make a fortune, or will you?

Let's say you have a rare disease, and the diagnosis of that disease is really difficult and on average it is diagosed correctly 55% of the time by the most elite doctor.

An accurate diagnosis means life, or death. You go to your doctor, and he runs tests, the best he knows how, and comes to the conclusion he has diagnosed you not having this disease. He looks at you and says, the last 15 patients I have seen i have diagnosed correctly. What you also know is his overall track record is less than 50% in 2000 previous diagnoses.

So why not believe him, he is very hot, has diagnosed 15 in a row would you trust your life to him, or go see someone that over the last 2,000 diagnoses, is the top in his field, and is correct 55% of the time?

treat your money like your life and save yourself from these idiots.

See I'm the guy that is the 55% doctor!

[Kubie217]

I love when docs sends out emails wit all their cappers and designated days they all have their game of weeks. And months and years a couple days before games. That's shows u right there it's all marketing bs. How can they know a certain lock game they love when it's 4/5 days away and no line is up on it yet ?????

[sunzal]

Sunzal. If u really his post he said he will be putting out numbers later on today to back up his claims. I know it's hard to read wit rf's c o c k in ur mouth. Just take it out for a second and read whole post made by this gentleman

nope- Rf is straight...but funny enough i did have 2 in my mouth at the time...i like it like that

[sunzal]

so let me get this straight...the idea of this thread is for tell us that he is going to print out this scathing rebuttal of Doc's site...uhhh- why not just post it? talk about being a bit dramatic...in so many ways this is the same as a game of the year pick

[Kubie217]

Again. Read his post. It's says why he can't just throw it up there. Damn bro. Ur annoying. Tell rf to read it to u since you can't comprehend the post sunzalschill

[Kubie217]

U seem very nervous and uptight about this guys findings. Are you rf or something?

[sunzal]

Again. Read his post. It's says why he can't just throw it up there. Damn bro. Ur annoying. Tell rf to read it to u since you can't comprehend the post sunzalschill

he can't just throw it out there?? right- and i'm the annoying one...my point: yes he can just throw it out there

[sunzal]

U seem very nervous and uptight about this guys findings. Are you rf or something?

terrrified.....you're on to me....just so nervous....you really are just a characture of a role you want to play on here dude...god it was so much nicer to be on this site before you came along...and i'm sure hearing that makes your day....why do i have a feeling this guys final post will be as anticlimactic as your life

[Kubie217]

A role I play???? R u serious bro??? Not playing a role. I just dislike u. Ur annoying and ur up rf's ass. So from time to time I come on here and bust ur balls. And ur correct. I do get enjoyment out of it. Kinda like the enjoyment u get when u role play wit rf. let me guess ur character. Rf comes home from a long day of capping and says sunzal. U have been a bad boy. I'm going to punish u for giving out my plays for free. Then all docs crew walk in and run the train on u. It's ur dream come true. Eastman. Ic. Sharpe. All taking turns on u. And then rf

[funguys_2005]

I have used many services and all twist the truth or just out right lie. At least its better than the good old days before the internet and cell phones when you had to call into services and they would give one side of the game to the east coast clients and the other side to west coast.

I can remember the good old Jack Price calling one of my friends a pu$$y because he wasnt betting big enough to get out of the hole he put him in and then calling him about once a month to remind him how much of a pu$$y he was and that he needed to grab his balls and pay for some picks if he wanted to ever win anything. The best part was that when on for years.

Truth is if any service hits 55% be happy. I have bought several packages from doc in the past. Mostly IC but thankfully I gave up on him about a year ago as his write ups started making no sense and were contradicting from one night to the next. Overall I have made money with those guys (selectively taking picks) and haven't had really any problems with customer service. Many times lines would be off half a point or so and they of course would count as a victory on website but when I called and said I lost they would most of the time extend me. Then one time they didnt so I started keeping a spreadsheet of all plays and if I couldn't get that line at time of release and never had a problem after that.

Unfortunately or fortunately however you look at it most of us are breaking the law every night to put in these games. So I would rather deal with the crooks at docs then most others. If anyone has any other good recommendations for others pm me.

[Kubie217]

Here is my recommendation for this evening. Touts sucks. Want a winner. Play okc tonight. It's that simple

[funguys_2005]

Duplicate

[CrazyCarl]

"It's also Valentine's day, and my priority will not be anything sports related after about 6pm, so some responses may come tomorrow."


What do you get when you cross a brown chicken with a brown cow??

BROWN-CHICKEN-BROWN-COWWWW... (say it aloud quickly)

[Flyboys]

***thanks for the responses...and the demands...as I said I won't respond specifically until all my info is out. But for those that asked, I believe I made it fairly clear that there will be plenty of numbers on each capper...and that beyond putting all of this out, the ongoing thread will track daily performance***

***yep, lots. We have found that is usually best***

***yes I realize some of you may say 'you are aware' of Doc's and their tactics. To that I would refer you back to my initial reasons for the research. 1) A rookie may not be aware and I said some of the background information would prove more valuable to them then veteran sports investors. 2) Even if newbies hear rumblings they can still be suckered by touts if evidence isn't provided to the contrary and 3) I feel it is in the best interests of the handicapping community in general to shed light on such deceptions. Beyond that, as despite the subpar reputation the public may have concerning those who spend time in the way we do, there can be integrity in this endeavor. Anyone who is involved in a consortium / syndicate/ "gambling club" knows without integrity it doesn't work---whether you are fronting $1000 as your season stake or 25k. It is the "right" thing for any experienced sports investor to look out/warn as appropriate...particularly concerning services which, as you say, some vets may be onto. These services are the ones forced to seek out new blood. I am not necessarily talking my level of involvement, but no one with knowledge as to the credibility of a service should sit back and watch people get burned if they see someone unwittingly playing with fire***

***it is my genuine wish that each of you also enjoy Valentine's Day. ***

******

The Backup

In an effort to provide additional data, both for this season and previous, it becomes necessary to seek out additional sites. There are many tracking services and some are better than others. Many are themselves scams, advertising for cappers and pointing out the grand success of the people on their site. One such scam site has an area where you can click on "the best" and then touts Doc as "the greatest CFB handicapper"...and goes on to claim his releases "have moved lines 7 points". It then shills some more and offers a discount to sign up for a season package. Not surprisingly, Doc's own site recommends this site and states it is ran by "long-standing industry professionals".


Considering independent documentation, in 2009, Doc finished at 52.11% and made 10.1 units during the regular season. He did not make the Leaderboard for bowls that season, but lowest on the board was -2.6, so he was worse than that. For tracked plays in 2010 regular season Doc hit on 51.19%, and finished up 2.4u for the year (+18.2 total, -15.8u side)...he followed that up with -1.3 for the bowls. 2011 found Doc absent from the Leaderboard for both as he performed horrendously (and even cops to this on his own site--must've been no way to spin it!) In 2012 there is conflicting data on what appears to be a slightly profitable regular season and a losing bowl season. What is comsistent is thst in getting there, over 25% of his plays were big, yet hit at only 58.82%, not the 80%+ claims concerning top plays.


Greatest CFB handicapper? Obviously now we are dealing with basketball tracking, but this information provides information about both the depth of deception as well as serves as a warning about sites parading around as legitimate. Any of these sites accepting a bunch of ad revenue from cappers or books have a financial interest in the success of their clients. Not successful handicapping, mind you, but in the success of their clients finding paying customers.


Even the sites that are truly independent and/or do not accept advertising as are often based on "contests", making the information incomplete. Having some data is better than no data, and there are legitimate sites drawn from that have been around between 17-32 years. The best of these sites is TSM, but they only track reported plays. For our purposes, this actually helps prove the depth of deception some cappers are involved in. Prior to being tracked, there is an integrity commitment required by TSM and other reputable trackers whereby the capper must pledge that both the games and the ratings reported for tracking are the same ones given to their customers. Now, for all I know every play presented for tracking is indeed released to customers. As will become readily apparent however, this commitment does not extend both ways.

In other words, every game advertised as "orange" or "red" on websites in an effort to drive sales and/or given to customers isn't necessarily reported to the tracker as being a "big play"...because it is not a big play and the capper doesn't want to risk a weak game billed to customers as strong losing and damaging his tracked big play record... But it does make it difficult for customers, as they do not know which games really are "big" and which games are only sold as being "big"...


2012 -13 statistics for each "Advisory Board Member", as Doc likes to call his crew, are not always readily available from the three trusted and independent sites I received further information from. The reasons for this vary depending on the verification site, but none of the reasons given for this are favorable to Doc's. The most common reason that performance data on a registered handicapper cannot readily be located is that the particular handicapper simply hasn't performed well enough to appear on the Leaderboard. For both NCAAB and NBA, this is the case for two Doc cappers. In the case of three different cappers in either NCAAB or NBA, they had appeared near the bottom of the Leaderboard as recently as 1/27 or 2/3 but recent poor performance knocked them off. We also have some dedicated members here who have tracked and post themselves when the shill comes.


Unfortunately, the data for past years can be more difficult as far as confirming who was registered for independent monitoring. Presently, it is difficult to independently refute/confirm claims made by some of the crew. There is nowhere that can verify 6-7 straight winning seasons as a few of them claim, or 3 straight years of +100u, etc...but we know that no trusted site can independently verify these claims.


What we do have available is partial data that you can judge for yourself. If a capper's bio claims they made large sums the previous year, but verifiable, independent data shows a 40-45% winning percentage on big plays for those individuals, you must decide for yourself which scenario is more likely. Is it more likely that a capper with a financial incentive to artificially inflate his record is telling the truth? Or...is it more likely independent sites that have been in business since 1985 and 1994 with a vested interest in reporting accurate data are telling the truth? Again, decide for yourself.


We also do have tracked data from 10-11 and 11-12 on a few members of the crew that prove a losing season...and Doc's still touts those documented losing cappers as having had multiple years in a row of consecutive winning seasons. It is not a great leap, then, to believe it is likely that they would falsify data for other crew members.

There are others like scamdicappers (premium) that track a majority, but not all, of the games of now 543 cappers (not all cappers are tracked in all sports). Although imperfect, such sites do give a snapshot to compare what monitoring services show as truth compared to what the handicapper's site claims. In the case of Doc's, it provides data on several cappers going back as far as 2009. Just another source of data that allows us to make our own determinations as to the validity of those wonderfully profitable multi-year records of all "Advisory Board Members"...


More information will continue throughout the day as final necessary details come available. As always, it is for you to decide.

...more to follow...

[GoofyGrape]

I have said I hate docs red marketing plays as much as anyone and bitch about them all the time. I hate to see newbies fall for these plays too.
But all this seems like a waste of energy to me.

I think doc runs a good business and overall is decent/ ethical.
Personally I think they should use a smaller tired system. With 3 levels of plays and no bs marketing name for the red plays if they want to be taken seriously and not get backlash like this.

Most of the guys over there provide good info but docs owners push them to use theses red plays to drive biz.
Really, guys, it comes down to personal money management of your bankroll whether playing your own picks or thier picks. 99% of sports bettors press and Mis manage thier money. Incuding myself!! I get down and press. I am sure most of you do too. It's psychology. I don't bet enough in units to really care that much but I hate to lose either way.

I'd take this dateline NBC study this guy is doing with a grain of salt.
And I don't work for docs either. I bash these plays more than anyone.

One thing I can't get over recently is how square these guys are. Huge public plays. None of them even look at that angle. I never bet a play before I see where the bets are going. The public does win but you would think pros like docs guys would use this more especially as lines get tight late in the year. Think that's betting 101.

[GoofyGrape]

Oh yeah. I remember that Jack price dude too.
I went thru that and paid for his picks in college.
They'd call me all the time giving me round robin parlays putting hundreds of dollars in the line. I lost a boatload and they called me every name in the boom telling me to bet more. Buy more picks. Calls constantly. I had to change my number!

[Britton333]

Oh yeah. I remember that Jack price dude too.
I went thru that and paid for his picks in college.
They'd call me all the time giving me round robin parlays putting hundreds of dollars in the line. I lost a boatload and they called me every name in the boom telling me to bet more. Buy more picks. Calls constantly. I had to change my number!

Hehe, when I was 20 I paid for Lang and was convinced he was going to make me millions... right around the time his movie came out. I was squarer than square in those days.

"What, the BULLS and JORDAN are 63-11 and playing the 19-55 HORNETS, and ONLY FAVORED BY 5.5.... I'M PUTTING ALL OF IT ON IT!!!!!... THIS IS THE STUPIDEST LINE EVER!!!!!"

Fast-forward several hours to me drinking away my sorrows staring at the Bulls winning by 4 or something.

Just a pure example. It's a really shady business and I haven't seen ANYONE in the business remotely legit except RAS. I was hoping Indian Cowboy had that magic with college hoops, but this year has proved he's all over the map and seems to have completely lost it.

[MattyGPA]

Some people need to get a life.

[Britton333]

Some people need to get a life.

Meh, he is being a tad overdramatic about the whole thing, but I'm hoping as a zoomie his intentions are good.

If this thread can help even a couple newbies avoid some horrible mistakes I/we made getting started, then he is doing the community a great service bringing some of these tactics to light. I'm looking forward to seeing the numbers myself. Wish I could personally track every sports from all the cappers, but I've only got IC's NBA/CBB (which I quit after a couple bad months) and the RF threads and Doc's NBA.

[Flyboys]

***again ,will respond in mass and certainly looking forward to it. I was forwarded a brief synopsis of comments and need to make clear one thing... I am presenting information in the best way possible given the posting rules. This is an enjoyable site...and quite frankly I should have frequented it sooner. I don't want to steal from a later post, but there are great places beyond the "service plays" for novice and vet alike to get different viewpoints and twists. I am being extremely careful as to the level of information divulged. As I said previously, I will have given you far more than the foundation, but there will be some dirtywork to do on your own if you care to. I believe SBR is a very reputable site, and as long as things are done correctly, they will not silence anyone. SBR dot tv has also done video interviews with members of Doc's in the recent past, but are very generous in allowing "equal time" as it were to those with differing opinions...as long as rules are followed. Two individuals are reviewing every one of these posts prior to submission to insure no infraction has occurred. Again, would I like to do as we did in the past with the Warren/Chimberes scamdicap? Sure. However, I respect the rules which govern the forum. ***




***
The Volume and the Breaking News!!


I have heard it argued that the incredible volume of "top" plays released by Doc's over the past few weeks is normal...that the number of big releases were simply a result of the large number of available choices and with seven cappers, lots of games would be expected...


I think not. In fact, coupled with the two late January plays that I had serious questions about, the sheer volume is what raised the red flag even higher.


--We have discussed the small number of reported and tracked "big" games as compared to the manufactured big games released to the public...a marketing scam that hurts the client who really is unaware what is a real money play and what isn't.


--We know about the video that poor IC was unfortunate enough to have made (but fortunate to us) that mysteriously disappeared in December...They presented a unified front to be sure, but one cannot imagine Doc was too happy behind the scenes...what with one of his own publicly declaring that he was forced to release "top" plays to the public on games that didn't truly rate that strong...


--We know that during the tracking period starting Jan 19 the day after RAS went dark and the marketing blitz began, Doc's seven cappers have released nearly twice the number of "big" plays to clients than ALL other known entities. Whether posted here on our forum or across the street, every known service whose plays are considered worth listing--a number far greater than the "crew" -- have released about half as many. For good measure, they threw in a "50% off sale" in the attempted capture of RAS clients.


And now the latest...unexpected and throwing a wrench into the works...


Hot off the presses from the marketing machine that is Doc's:

SEVEN plays over the next FOUR days from SIX cappers rating light orange to blazing red!! However, one caveat. They are not part of any plan and must be purchased as a part of the individual pick package. There are 6 cappers, so 6 individual purchases must be made...


Can this be real? Isn't this just more marketing? Can someone really know 4 days and 150 games from now that they will have a blazing red? Believe it or not, it is possible for some services and certain individuals to have great success in this manner...but whether Doc's can is another question. We saw their last blazing red announced 4 days early fall flat.

The Outlaw line--with its utility and its risks--is coming late tonight...but first and I am off Capitol For V-Day. Peace and luck to you.

[Flyboys]

***ANDTHEWINNERIS: was informed of your post, I get it, and will respond more fully later. I'd say ask Mike Warren and Chip Chimberes how things are now compared to then...and how their little website with it's scam tracking service compares to where they once were. You CAN fight and win. I was but a side-player in that battle and in no way claim anything more than a modicum of credit. I realize we may not win this war as we did back in '07-'08, but we CAN win some battles...and hopefully keep some newbies from getting burned as many did. ***

The "Good Cop" and "Bad Cop"

Same old song and dance.


You know something must be going as expected when you see the mix of reaction. The positives are appreciated, both publicly and privately...but as I knew from previous experience--and called in my initial post today--the negatives, personal attacks, and particularly the demands would come. The "bad cops" are always there--were we taken by surprise that a shill like MattyGPA or sunzal would comment like they did? My forum posts last night prior to this thread pointed to characters such as these as the reason things took awhile to get going. We weren't jumping in blind! As I also said would happen, we now have the guy who has been a member since 2009, posts about 3 times a month, only frequents Doc's threads, and his last 27 posts have primarily been defending Doc's, to the point of quoting numbers right off the Doc's site. These types are always there, but they do their job. They work to make it easier for the "good cop" shills (rational defenders who play it like they just want more information) to fly under the radar with casual requests that take the focus off where it needs to be. There is a pair quite possibly playing off each other. Not my first rodeo.


In fact some idiot felt it impressive to report a PM orange win tonight. Honestly, sweeping the ENTIRE weekend of bigs still would have them losing units when juice is considered for the tracking period.


What I am saying is this: promises made will be kept. Individual tracking records will be out--most by tomorrow and all by first-tip Sat...additionally, I will go back over this thread and address every legitimate comment, as promised, as soon as my posts are complete... but I am not going to look a gift horse in the mouth. The magnitude of the opportunity presented by Doc's coming out now with this "weekend of winners" is like a criminal walking into the police station and putting the cuffs on himself...because a service that has shown itself to be nothing more than hype has now presented me with an opportunity to discuss the Outlaw Line.


Notice I said "service", and did not mention specific individuals. Now, there is such a things as guilt by association, but one has to believe IC must have had some trepidation about what was occurring or he wouldn't have made that video...and you will see I will report numbers that show winning records for some of these cappers, just winning records that are much less impressive then the ones claimed... As I have said multiple times, research it. Taking my word for it is not what I hope to attain. Nor would letting the variety of personal attacks from shills cloud your judgement and take the focus away from the deception be good either. Prove it to yourself.


As tempting as it is for me to just post individual capper info now, I feel discussing these advance picks will better push the process, and my first post tomorrow will concentrate on that. Most people already know what that will show and and believe me the defenders already are preparing their rebuttals. I want to give them plenty of time.

The will come the individual cappers. I eagerly await the variety of ways the shills will try to defend the deception.