1. #36
    jahpoker
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    Quote Originally Posted by wantitall4moi View Post

    As for the other question, I dont bet teasers, and in a sport like the NBA where the scoring system is so volatile it is a waste. Free throws can kill anything even teasers. But guys think teasers are free throw insurance, but not when you generally only get 4 points on NBA teasers.

    Thank you

  2. #37
    mbs4
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  3. #38
    BMoreBird
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    when i see the public is heavy on a team (lets use steelers @ titans as example)... i think 80% of america was on pittsburgh -7. the line went down to -6.5 (despite everyone already being on it).. and the value increased from -110 to +100. then it dropped to -6. same story. by game time it might have even been at 5.5 and people jsut kept pounding them. i didnt really understand why i was putting my money on the titans but i did it based on this movement. also because it was a home dog on prime time. i did this with carolina vs washington last week as well. and i will do it with carolina vs denver today again. good luck.

  4. #39
    BMoreBird
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    oh and with new orleans today. theyve gone from +1 to pick. from +120 on moneyline, to no moneyline (all since this morning).

  5. #40
    Duff85
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoulihansTX View Post
    BTCL is a myth
    You're a myth.

  6. #41
    MeatWad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeatWad View Post
    I play soo many mostly for the same amount. Among the ones I have that haven't started: Org St, S Ala, Wym, Mary, Wash U, TCU, Tulsa, Vandy, over in Okl and Ok St games, A force, Nev, Tex St., and I added WVU +10 late when the number went up, thought 7-7.5 was correct.
    Look at the 14 picks I posted and you can see how it matters. I went 8-6 slightly below my yearly average % win rate in NCAAF.

    In one game the spread factored in, the Oregon St-Stanford win. I got +5.5 opening, but if you got +4, you go 7-6-1. For a dime bettor at -105 vig, this is the difference between winning $1700 vs only $700.

    This really adds up when you are betting 1000's of games a year. It matters even more when you are a professional and rely on the money to pay bills.

  7. #42
    Duff85
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeatWad View Post
    Look at the 14 picks I posted and you can see how it matters. I went 8-6 slightly below my yearly average % win rate in NCAAF.

    In one game the spread factored in, the Oregon St-Stanford win. I got +5.5 opening, but if you got +4, you go 7-6-1. For a dime bettor at -105 vig, this is the difference between winning $1700 vs only $700.

    This really adds up when you are betting 1000's of games a year. It matters even more when you are a professional and rely on the money to pay bills.
    Reasonably certain that the OP just wants to make himself feel better about betting into terrible numbers. Hence the reason he has ignored any post in this thread that has said that it is pivotal.

  8. #43
    wantitall4moi
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeatWad View Post
    Look at the 14 picks I posted and you can see how it matters. I went 8-6 slightly below my yearly average % win rate in NCAAF.

    In one game the spread factored in, the Oregon St-Stanford win. I got +5.5 opening, but if you got +4, you go 7-6-1. For a dime bettor at -105 vig, this is the difference between winning $1700 vs only $700.

    This really adds up when you are betting 1000's of games a year. It matters even more when you are a professional and rely on the money to pay bills.
    the opposite is true actually, the more you do it the fewer those games will matter. If youre consistently getting beat because of a 'bad' number then youre probably not a professional and shouldnt be relying on it to pay the bills.

    I did it for 12 years plus every day all year, it was the only source of income I had, so I know what I am talking about. I said it back then and got laughed at, I say it now and get laughed at. The difference? Now I have 12 years worth of data to prove I was right. while all the so called know it alls and their theories are dead ass broke or living off welfare.

  9. #44
    Duff85
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    Quote Originally Posted by wantitall4moi View Post
    while all the so called know it alls and their theories are dead ass broke or living off welfare.
    You know this for sure? Because I have three years worth of data that says you're wrong and probably broke living off the welfare.

    That said - you talk about how it doesn't matter and then in your thread you mention getting the best number because it makes sense. I honestly believe that you intentionally mislead posters on these forums.

  10. #45
    wantitall4moi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duff85 View Post
    You know this for sure? Because I have three years worth of data that says you're wrong and probably broke living off the welfare.

    That said - you talk about how it doesn't matter and then in your thread you mention getting the best number because it makes sense. I honestly believe that you intentionally mislead posters on these forums.
    you always want to get the best number, but it doesnt mean its imperative, just trying is usually good enough to avoid most of the pitfalls.

    Like you today worried about taking 13 instead of 13.5 in the SF game, thats just dumb. the chances of a game that is lined 13/13.5 landing on 13 are less than 1%, I could look it up but I bet it hasnt happened once, and in the end it didnt matter one bit. Just like every other move today.

    In the NFL it is almost meaningless if you get away from games around the 3. The only spot I was ever concerned was NCAA hoops totals, and as I mentioned they have made those so that you can not worry too much about them these days. But you'll have to pay heavier vig. So six of one half a dozen of the other I suppose.

    Also when I am talking about price it is primarily ML odds, because getting +134 instead of +129 on a ML dog is MUCH MORE important than getting -7.5 instead of -8.5 or even -9.

    OK I looked it up, one game in 49 has pushed on -13. But that was also the very worst number available as it was 14 forever and even sat at 13.5 for awhile so if you got 13 it was your own damn fault. But there have also been 46 games closing at -13.5 none of them had a 13 point differential, and only 1 of them had a 14 point differential (the 'key' number most would be looking to avoid not 13 obviously)

  11. #46
    MeatWad
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    Quote Originally Posted by wantitall4moi View Post
    the opposite is true actually, the more you do it the fewer those games will matter. If youre consistently getting beat because of a 'bad' number then youre probably not a professional and shouldnt be relying on it to pay the bills.

    I did it for 12 years plus every day all year, it was the only source of income I had, so I know what I am talking about. I said it back then and got laughed at, I say it now and get laughed at. The difference? Now I have 12 years worth of data to prove I was right. while all the so called know it alls and their theories are dead ass broke or living off welfare.
    I have never had a job, unless you count a 1 day, 4 hour stint at UPS during college. I have gambled successfully for over 25 years.

    The difference is subtle but it adds up. I seldom get beat because of a bad number because I get bad numbers less frequently. Professional bettors beat the closing line by betting openers and usually getting better numbers than the closing lines.

    The same principle applies in poker, good players put less bad beats on their opponents generally because they are not getting their money in bad ( rare exteme cases of having tremendous fold equity, usually in short handed games, sometimes make getting money in bad +EV long term).

    Generally we get beat less because of bad numbers than the number of times we win by getting good numbers. Of the 14 games I listed, I had way more good numbers than bad ones, betting the openers in all but one case. It was this good number on Oregon St that gave me a win instead of a tie.

  12. #47
    wantitall4moi
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeatWad View Post
    I have never had a job, unless you count a 1 day, 4 hour stint at UPS during college. I have gambled successfully for over 25 years.

    The difference is subtle but it adds up. I seldom get beat because of a bad number because I get bad numbers less frequently. Professional bettors beat the closing line by betting openers and usually getting better numbers than the closing lines.

    The same principle applies in poker, good players put less bad beats on their opponents generally because they are not getting their money in bad ( rare exteme cases of having tremendous fold equity, usually in short handed games, sometimes make getting money in bad +EV long term).

    Generally we get beat less because of bad numbers than the number of times we win by getting good numbers. Of the 14 games I listed, I had way more good numbers than bad ones, betting the openers in all but one case. It was this good number on Oregon St that gave me a win instead of a tie.
    if you track them then you know that openers arent the 'best' option more than 25% of the time, just like the closer isnt the best option 80% of the time, the 'best' numbers come somewhere in between the vast majority of the time, but like I said it doesnt matter that much. You go by anecdotal evidence, while I look at over all moves and results.


    If I told you the number of middles or sides that have hit in the NFL since 1998 you probably wouldnt believe it because it is so small, and in most of those you were looking to have to lay more than -115 in more than half of them, and over -120 in quite a few of those.

    NCAA is different, its nearly double what NFL is, so you had one game in 14, you should go 40 more without seeing another one. But you wont notice until it comes up and bites you in the ass. Thats how it works when you try and track these. I dont have any personal interest in my results I just do a search and it spits out an answer.

    While it doesnt do any good on predicting winners (I have other stuff for that) it lets me have the right info when questions and debates like these pop up.

  13. #48
    MeatWad
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    Quote Originally Posted by wantitall4moi View Post
    if you track them then you know that openers arent the 'best' option more than 25% of the time, just like the closer isnt the best option 80% of the time, the 'best' numbers come somewhere in between the vast majority of the time, but like I said it doesnt matter that much. You go by anecdotal evidence, while I look at over all moves and results.


    If I told you the number of middles or sides that have hit in the NFL since 1998 you probably wouldnt believe it because it is so small, and in most of those you were looking to have to lay more than -115 in more than half of them, and over -120 in quite a few of those.

    NCAA is different, its nearly double what NFL is, so you had one game in 14, you should go 40 more without seeing another one. But you wont notice until it comes up and bites you in the ass. Thats how it works when you try and track these. I dont have any personal interest in my results I just do a search and it spits out an answer.

    While it doesnt do any good on predicting winners (I have other stuff for that) it lets me have the right info when questions and debates like these pop up.
    Is the % of their occurrence a function of time?( Do you see more or less as the season progresses.) I would suspect the early season to have bigger absolute line movements, but the smaller movements later in the season to be more meaningful because the spreads have greater predictive value?

    I feel a little detached if I am not giving qualitative input to my picks. I realize people have mathematical/computer based predictive models that work well, but I hopefully add a slightly higher win rate with my subjective analysis/handicapping.

    Also I think alot of guys probably bet games they like before the lines go over critical numbers and wait on lines that may move in their favor over a critical number. I never really aim to middle a game as I think the juice neutralizes the value of small middles that you can expect to get. But I do think I can look at a early line and know it is likely better than what it will be before closing. Or conversely when I may lean towards a team but expect any potential line movement to have an overall +EV effect if I wait to bet it, as with games hovering around critical numbers.

    I agree that the edge is small. But the small edges do add up to help you significantly long term. To use a poker analogy I think most games are beatable using an ABC approach and not sweating small edges. You can make a living off this style. But when you sweat your opponents' nuances and the slight edges in given spots they differentiate you from your competition and allow you to play bigger games where the units won become significant.
    Last edited by MeatWad; 11-11-12 at 11:42 PM.

  14. #49
    raydog
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    goddamn wanti...you are the dumbest fukk here...if any of you kids believe any of the stupid shit this clown is spitting, you deserve to lose...

    its not an act like jj or btj...the guy is actually this fukking stupid... and whats worse, he has told the same stupid ass lies and idiotic ideas about betting that he might really think its true... it is not

    fwiw, ganch was making well over 100k when he left here...you think he is making nothing at heritage??? you would, again, be wrong...

  15. #50
    rm18
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    Saved me 3 times this weekend

    Oregon St. +4.5 closed at 4(lost by 4)
    Brooklyn -6.5 -130 closed 8 but i would of bet at 8 if I would of bet at 8 if could not get 7.5( won by 8)
    Rams 2nd half +7 closed at 6(lost 2nd half by 7)

  16. #51
    RogueScholar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoulihansTX View Post
    BTCL is a myth
    Quote Originally Posted by Duff85 View Post
    You're a myth.
    LOL, you beat me to it.

    Addressing the OP's question, my response is always the same in these matters: consult your own data. None of the get rich quick guys (yes, you, Patty) ever bother tracking their wagers in Excel, dooming themselves to what can only be described as a Sisyphean gambling existence.



    Keep a spreadsheet of your wagers (Excel, not SBR). When you grade them, take two seconds to also record the outcome. Now, when you have questions like this about the worth of a half-point or what reduced juice could do to your bottom line, the cold, hard facts are a few keystrokes away. Only when you see your balance at the bottom turn from a negative number to a positive one will you truly believe what any intelligent gambler will tell you:

    An extra half point on every play can turn a losing gambler into a break-even one. A full point can make you a bona fide winner. The same can be said for reduced juice, provided you can avoid obvious pitfalls that most gamblers can't. (These are generalizations, of course. Some gamblers are so stupid that they couldn't win with yesterday's newspaper, and most of those post on SBR. I'm looking at you, wantitallformoi...)

    If you can't be bothered to make your own Excel spreadsheet, visit this thread: http://www.sportsbookreview.com/forum/players-ta...l#post16261658

    If, after all this, you still don't track your wagers, I thank you in advance for your donations to the market. Your sacrifice doesn't go unnoticed when sharps across the globe book their next month-long vacation.

  17. #52
    rm18
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    Happened again I bet Oregon St. -8.5 closed at 9 or 9.5? won by 9

  18. #53
    rm18
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    I bet under 192 in Lakers game I pushed because I did not get the closing number, sick beat there

  19. #54
    wantitall4moi
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    Quote Originally Posted by raydog View Post
    goddamn wanti...you are the dumbest fukk here...if any of you kids believe any of the stupid shit this clown is spitting, you deserve to lose...

    its not an act like jj or btj...the guy is actually this fukking stupid... and whats worse, he has told the same stupid ass lies and idiotic ideas about betting that he might really think its true... it is not

    fwiw, ganch was making well over 100k when he left here...you think he is making nothing at heritage??? you would, again, be wrong...
    LMAO more stupidity from the usual suspects. How do you know what Ganch made? because he said so? I do know what guys that work for these books make because I have been around long enough and know enough people, they dont make shit.

    Guys can cherry pick lines all you want it doesnt change the fact it doesnt matter, guy cites three examples, there were probably 400 (if you start counting half time lines it was closer to 1000)different lines posted this weekend alone between NFL, NBA, and NCAA sides and totals, I would say 300 (every half time line will move) of them moved enough to be 'significant'. So a guy could find 3 times out of a thousand posted lines where the spread came into effect, it should be ten times that actually, and it probably was across all 4 major sports but that also means that in the other 900 times the line moved it didnt matter. You guys can slice it anyway you want.

    My examples given were strictly full game SIDE. I could look up the other stuff but I am not going to waste my time.

    Like I have said repeatedly, you always want to get the best line you can, but it isnt life or death. If you lose a game by a half point then thats a bad beat, thee isnt anyone that will avoid every one of those no matter what, so you take them as they come. If you lose by a full point then it might be your fault, especially if the 'better' number was available for any length of time. But it is still a bad beat IMO. But generally hose end up being pushes and not full on losses.

    I made over 30K bets on full game sides and totals and I havent actually gone over each and every one, but I would say that I had less than 200 games where I lost due to a 'bad' number. That number is so insignificantly small it doesnt even register. Maybe I am just better at avoiding those games than other people, but I dont think that is it, at least not from what I can see. Its the nature of the beast, but it doesnt hold near the significance that many people want to give it.

    If you cant win because of a few bad beats get a different hobby. If youre a pro then you should also understand it comes with the business and is the price of doing that business. Its like anything else, you always want the best price, but you dont sacrifice the whole for one little part.

    I am done talking about this because I have said more than enough about it, when you guys all get a database that goes back a decade or more with openers, closers, and moves and can run a scan to see what happened then you can try and make some statements of fact, but going off what you think you know because of what you remember or some other blow hard told you isnt going to cut it. I can look it up. Thats really the main reason I had the thing made, because I got tired of the stupid arguments like this one from so called experts sayiing how important it was, well ten years later I am still right and theyre all still wrong, or dead.

  20. #55
    wantitall4moi
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogueScholar View Post
    LOL, you beat me to it.



    Keep a spreadsheet of your wagers (Excel, not SBR). When you grade them, take two seconds to also record the outcome. Now, when you have questions like this about the worth of a half-point or what reduced juice could do to your bottom line, the cold, hard facts are a few keystrokes away. Only when you see your balance at the bottom turn from a negative number to a positive one will you truly believe what any intelligent gambler will tell you:

    An extra half point on every play can turn a losing gambler into a break-even one. A full point can make you a bona fide winner. The same can be said for reduced juice, provided you can avoid obvious pitfalls that most gamblers can't. (These are generalizations, of course. Some gamblers are so stupid that they couldn't win with yesterday's newspaper, and most of those post on SBR. I'm looking at you, wantitallformoi...)

    If you can't be bothered to make your own Excel spreadsheet, visit this thread: http://www.sportsbookreview.com/forum/players-ta...l#post16261658

    If, after all this, you still don't track your wagers, I thank you in advance for your donations to the market. Your sacrifice doesn't go unnoticed when sharps across the globe book their next month-long vacation.
    that is just not true and you know it. Again I can run the numbers and I can tell you that there arent enough game results close to the ATS results to make this even remotely accurate, another know it all that doesnt know shit. The average difference in the NFL is over 11 points differential, so getting even a full point isnt going to matter.

    You cant beat results, so if you bothered to read yesterdays newspaper you would know that youre dead wrong. There are a finite amount of games, every single one of them can be tracked, therefore you can proof it all out very easily, assuming you have the capability to look it up, which obviously no one has becaaue they keep saying the same stupid things over and over again.

    I can only assume this is mirrored in the think about it dont do anything but talk about it tank due to some of the people posting in it, so I challenge all you geniuses to run a simple search of data anyone can get off this site even, mine the last years line moves in the major sport, and then check the results and see what getting the very best number would give you for a result, then the very worst. Then factor in people's opinions on the game because there are still two sides. The way people take BOTH sides are going to be a winner if you get the best line on both of them. Thats the fatal flaw in every argument, you have to have the 'right' side in the first place. In games where the spread comes into play there was (in the end) no real 'right' side, one side just got lucky, but due to the way the business works, BOTH sides ended up being winners, that hurts the books alot more than it hurts the players in the end.

    OK now I am really done...

  21. #56
    ebbearsfb1
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    Quote Originally Posted by UntilTheNDofTimE View Post
    Someone at another forum had a local that let people bet off wednesdays lines in the paper. He bet every line that beat the line from wednesday. He kept a record of if he bet the closing line from what he was getting.

    Paper was something like +58 units. If he bet the closing line he'd be -14 units. So beating the line by 1-2 points is wrth 72 units.
    So if true.. in theory couldn't this work for nba also? If you check morning paper nets are plus 7.. 5mins before tip they are plus 8 take the plus8...granted you could be getting a lot of games each day.. or am I understanding this wrong?

  22. #57
    Big Bear
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    Ask no coin and lakerboy they are experts on this

  23. #58
    raydog
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    wanti, the "usual suspects" are the guys who are winning...getting the best numbers and not getting dogged by .5pts... just as you posted your stupid shit last night, those with -8.5 on ore st. won by .5pt... the people with a clue are the ones who keep making you look fukking stupid...you want to go over to peeps and tell steak, mf, durito and others your ideas on this stupid shit??? i didnt think so... so if you keep posting your airbet shit and ignorant theories for the kids and uneducated gamblers here, ill keep debunking the completely useless drivel you offer...

  24. #59
    Pete0
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoulihansTX View Post
    BTCL is a myth


    can you please elaborate ??

  25. #60
    smoke a bowl
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    Quote Originally Posted by unluckysob View Post
    totals hit closer to number than sides---
    False.

  26. #61
    smoke a bowl
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    Quote Originally Posted by wantitall4moi View Post
    I have posted it a million times. Spread matters in about 16-17% of the games. in the NFL anyway. In the NBA its around 20% of the time, NCAA football 24% of the time, NCAA basketball 21#of the time, on SIDES anyway.

    Which means for the most part if you can pick a SU winner youre going to cover the spread, especially in professional sports.

    In the NFL getting the VERY BEST number available versus the VERY WORST number available will raise your win percentage less than 3%. Thats looking at every game since 2000 and factoring in lines and results. In the NBA its is slightly over 4% since 2002. NCAA football its around 4%also, NCAA hoops (lots of moves, but also a lot of games) its around 4.5% difference.

    The biggest spot where line really matters is NCAA basketball totals. But mostly due to recent issues with them, but they have also been tightened up a lot the past 3 years. I wont get into it as the rate has dropped significantly since 2007.

    Good adage in the pros anyway, if you like a favorite and theyre less than 7 points (in any sport) lay the points. If you like the dog (less than 7 points) bet the ML. This year in the NFL has surely tested that rationale as the dogs have in fact been covering but not winning SU. So while dogs have been 'covering' at an historic rate they arent doing it like they have in the past, namely simply winning the game.

    Bottomline is spread is semi meaningless for the most part, and getting the very best number isnt worth nearly the worry people put into it. They just like to say it because someone who sis supposedly smart said so and they just believe it. But if they ever had the ability to look and check they would see it really doesnt matter. Only people who think the line matters are guys who are on those rare games and get bunt by a 'bad beat'. They dont bother remembering every other game they didnt get the best number and won anyway.
    Anybody who read this is officially more dumb now.

  27. #62
    smoke a bowl
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    Quote Originally Posted by wantitall4moi View Post
    I always like these arguments, yeah if youre a coin flipper. If a guy knows what lines to avoid then their difference is actually going to be less than 1%. if you simply eliminate the 2.5/3/3.5 lines (where they cross around those numbers) youre at about 1.3% in the NFL where getting the best line matters over getting the worst, in most of the time where it matters you push and do not lose. NBA the line is 4 where you have a demarcation, dont ask me why, but that is the one.

    So if a coin flipper never bet a game that was lined in or around 3 and just bet everything else he would then be a 51% capper if he got the best line every time.

    Percentages dont mean shit anyway. If a guy isnt betting the same exact amount on every single play then it doesnt matter what his win percentage is, and if a guy is using Kelly or some other make believe system to determine how much he bets due to his 'edge' and he uses point spread comparisons to determine that edge then he is a retard anyway. So if he see a game -6 and he puts his edge at 53% then it moves to -4 what does he do? Makes his edge 60% or does he think the move is 'sharp' and not bet the game?

    Its a double edged sword. I dont give a shit what the line is or what anyone else thinks, I bet games I like at the best number I thin I can get. I do more than fine. But the NFL is for suckers anyway, the only way you can make decent money is to be too much on games in the first place.

    If a guy makes 200 wagers in the NFL in a season, and to do thathe would have to be betting sides, totals, halves, and probably quarters, and is 54% that means his record is 108-92 (assuming no pushes). If he is betting 1 unit per play he is up 16 units, big frigging whoop. If he is a 100 bucks per unit guy he made less than a hundred bux a week. If he is a nickle player he made about 400 a week. And if he can afford to bet a nickle a unit, 400 a week wouldnt pay for his trouble.

    Football is a nice past time sport, throw some money on a game and watch it, it certainly isnt for making any steady income.
    And if you read this post then you are now even more dumb.

  28. #63
    smoke a bowl
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    As it turns out, reading posts by wantitall4me will turn you flat phukin retarded and flat phukin broke in this gambling market. Believe it.

  29. #64
    Pete0
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    As far as I understand ( from my very limited knowledge )

    There are two basic philosophies to being successful at this thing. There are the
    1) math guys/volume bettors who obsess over the best no. the better price, and aim to grind out a 55 % win rate.
    2) casual betters who "spot bet" teams to win by a comfortable margin and dont bother too much about no.s/prices

    IMO, the number isnt something to worry about too much, but obviously it benefits you in the long run to consistently get good numbers - to avoid those "bad beats" and also a benefit of a slight increase in total returns over time.

  30. #65
    Pete0
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogueScholar View Post
    LOL, you beat me to it.

    Addressing the OP's question, my response is always the same in these matters: consult your own data. None of the get rich quick guys (yes, you, Patty) ever bother tracking their wagers in Excel, dooming themselves to what can only be described as a Sisyphean gambling existence.



    Keep a spreadsheet of your wagers (Excel, not SBR). When you grade them, take two seconds to also record the outcome. Now, when you have questions like this about the worth of a half-point or what reduced juice could do to your bottom line, the cold, hard facts are a few keystrokes away. Only when you see your balance at the bottom turn from a negative number to a positive one will you truly believe what any intelligent gambler will tell you:

    An extra half point on every play can turn a losing gambler into a break-even one. A full point can make you a bona fide winner. The same can be said for reduced juice, provided you can avoid obvious pitfalls that most gamblers can't. (These are generalizations, of course. Some gamblers are so stupid that they couldn't win with yesterday's newspaper, and most of those post on SBR. I'm looking at you, wantitallformoi...)

    If you can't be bothered to make your own Excel spreadsheet, visit this thread: http://www.sportsbookreview.com/forum/players-ta...l#post16261658

    If, after all this, you still don't track your wagers, I thank you in advance for your donations to the market. Your sacrifice doesn't go unnoticed when sharps across the globe book their next month-long vacation.
    Good post. Thank you for link to Excel spreadsheets

  31. #66
    wantitall4moi
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    Quote Originally Posted by smoke a bowl View Post
    And if you read this post then you are now even more dumb.
    its easy enough to check, every game is there with every line move simply go look. You would rather posts dumb one liners than actually learn something.

    I could list every single game in the NFL side and total where the line has actually mattered, you could all go look for yourselves and still not believe it. thats how stupid gamblers are and why books kill people.
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