[BIGDAY]

Well. If this passes, I guess the church will be charging $10k per wedding and funeral as they will be looked at as a business and controlled by the government.

[Blondie]

Are you kidding me? There are two where I vote, and I've never seen more than 10 people in there at a time.

That's how it is here right now. Lunch time, 3pm when the kids are dismissed and after are swamped though

[BIGDAY]

Heading out hunting now. Hoping for that big buck.

[lyon804]

The irony seems to be completely lost on that generation as a whole.

The way they see it: they put in their time and deserve it so programs like Medicare and Social Security are OK, but if it's not directly benefiting them, it's "socialism" or "communism."

True, my father and I use to joke with my grandfather on him colecting his "big government check" every month.. He always said "I worked for that money" Bless his soul, he was as good and as a decent man you would find. He lived to be 89 and reaped an unbelievable amount of money from SS. He collected for 27 years. Unreal. As a rule all old people think they should get there medicine for free and that there SS money they get is not enough. They are liberal when it comes to there wants and needs, but very conservative when it comes to others.

[No coincidences]

True, my father and I use to joke with my grandfather on him colecting his "big government check" every month.. He always said "I worked for that money" Bless his soul, he was as good and as a decent man you would find. He lived to be 89 and reaped an unbelievable amount of money from SS. He collected for 27 years. Unreal. As a rule all old people think they should get there medicine for free and that there SS money they get is not enough. They are liberal when it comes to there wants and needs, but very conservative when it comes to others.

Exactly. I've still never been able to have a coherent conversation with any of the older people I come across when it comes to explaining how this isn't "socialism" by their standards -- my relatives included. And I'm OK with it too -- just don't talk about how this country is going to hell in a handbasket because of the same philosophies that you are personally taking advantage of.

[Chi_archie]

it may be a form of socialism, that those old folks don't recognize

but in their eyes can you see the difference? it may just be a splitting of 100,000 hrs worth of hairs in semantics but.

but still very different from a welfare mom that did nothing but get pregnant at 16 and not stop spitting out babies

and a guy that worked a blue collar job for 30-40 years and PAID INTO SSI and paid taxes

they may be similar in some vague ways but they aren't the same by a long shot

[No coincidences]

it may be a form of socialism, that those old folks don't recognize

but in their eyes can you see the difference? it may just be a splitting of 100,000 hrs worth of hairs in semantics but.

but still very different from a welfare mom that did nothing but get pregnant at 16 and not stop spitting out babies

and a guy that worked a blue collar job for 30-40 years and PAID INTO SSI and paid taxes

they may be similar in some vague ways but they aren't the same by a long shot

You and I are paying into SS Arch and I have been for 20 years (with more to come) -- you think I'm going to see a dime of that when I retire? Doubt it.

I have no problem with SS or Medicare. None. I do have a problem with the "socialism" hyperbole from people who are a part of the process themselves, though. They may not be suckling at the government teet the way a young welfare mom is, but they're not exactly turning away those checks either. So quit your bitchin', curmudgeons.

[Chi_archie]

in the above example with gramps

we aren't talking about you and I paying in.

we are talking about HIM having PAID in, and now receiving the the benefits

maybe not apples and oranges. but different types of apples ( ours is rotten)

[Sam Odom]

If the good Lord is willing... Sammy will be adding SS to his income in a few short yrs - will be a triple-dipper then

But I dont expect my children to see their SS as we know it

[No coincidences]

in the above example with gramps

we aren't talking about you and I paying in.

we are talking about HIM having PAID in, and now receiving the the benefits

maybe not apples and oranges. but different types of apples ( ours is rotten)

No, I know he paid in and deserves that check.

I'm just saying that we've been paying in and will for the rest of our lives, and probably won't see a dime.

[No coincidences]

If the good Lord is willing... Sammy will be adding SS to his income in a few short yrs - will be a triple-dipper then

But I dont expect my children to see their SS as we know it

OK, I'll bite: how can you define SS and Medicare as something other than "socialism" by today's hyperbolic definition? In other words, how/why is it OK for these people to bitch about government programs when they are a part of it themselves?

[Chi_archie]

No, I know he paid in and deserves that check.

I'm just saying that we've been paying in and will for the rest of our lives, and probably won't see a dime.

you ARE saying that now

the Original argument said that it was hard to convince old people that is WAS socialism, as if they didn't deserve it

[Sam Odom]

You can put your toe in the lake but you dont have to jump in

[No coincidences]

you ARE saying that now

the Original argument said that it was hard to convince old people that is WAS socialism, as if they didn't deserve it

Again, I don't have a problem with SS or Medicare at all.

I do have a problem with people bitching about our government's "socialist" agenda while taking advantage of said government programs themselves. Who's to say where the "deserve" line is drawn?

[Chi_archie]

I do have a problem with people bitching about our government's "socialist" agenda while taking advantage of said government programs themselves. Who's to say where the "deserve" line is drawn?

I'd start with retired age SSI and Medicare as a LINE, when they worked for it and maybe even fought a war for it.

I have no problem with any American bitching about anything at all.

that's why I love our country, our constitution.

to bitch about people bitching when it comes to our government and the freedom it bestows on us is a bit oxymoronic to begin with when you look at the big picture

[No coincidences]

You can put your toe in the lake but you dont have to jump in

Agree wholeheartedly.

It doesn't give you the right to complain about the water being cold, though.

[No coincidences]

to bitch about people bitching when it comes to our government and the freedom it bestows on us is a bit oxymoronic to begin with when you look at the big picture

I can't argue with that. I just find the whole thing more than a little hypocritical. After all, a government program is still a government program.

[Chi_archie]

I can't argue with that. I just find the whole thing more than a little hypocritical. After all, a government program is still a government program.

I hear ya

like I said above I think it is a semantical argument.

there are ALOT of "governmental programs" we benefit from.

I'm glad for FEMA in NYC right now and I bet alot of republicans were too

[lyon804]

The argument I was making in respect to my grandfather was he collected a shit ton more than he paid in. Yes he earned it I guess by working his job everyday and he also was a WW2 vet, but make no mistake SS was a huge benefit for him. Call it an investment or whatever, but he reaped waaaaay more than he paid in. I think when he retired from the pipe mill he was making $400 a week. Many years way less than that and he collected nearly $1500 a month forever. All old people think they "earned" whatever benefit they get. They think we owe it to them. I love to get behind an old lady or man at fast food joint, well not really old maybe 60 and they ask cashier, "did you give me my senior discount for my cofee"? Jesusfukkingchrist............. Most old people own all the land, have no bills because they have paid for housing and no children to support and want to make sure they save 10 fukking cents on cofee. And they want that medicine to be FREE. You know what I say, Fuk them! They are running this country dry. The senior mob is what they are and policians give them what they want because they know them bastards will vote.

[No coincidences]

I hear ya

like I said above I think it is a semantical argument.

there are ALOT of "governmental programs" we benefit from.

I'm glad for FEMA in NYC right now and I bet alot of republicans were too

Absolutely.

I shouldn't say people don't have the right to bitch about it -- I just don't understand why they do so vehemently.

I suppose it's all a part of toeing a party line, something I've never been able to come even remotely close to doing on either side. I find both staunch Republicans and Democrats to be ignorant, narrow-minded and borderline intolerable these days.

[No coincidences]

The argument I was making in respect to my grandfather was he collected a shit ton more than he paid in. Yes he earned it I guess by working his job everyday and he also was a WW2 vet, but make no mistake SS was a huge benefit for him. Call it an investment or whatever, but he reaped waaaaay more than he paid in. I think when he retired from the pipe mill he was making $400 a week. Many years way less than that and he collected nearly $1500 a month forever. All old people think they "earned" whatever benefit they get. They think we owe it to them. I love to get behind an old lady or man at fast food joint, well not really old maybe 60 and they ask cashier, "did you give me my senior discount for my cofee"? Jesusfukkingchrist............. Most old people own all the land, have no bills because they have paid for housing and no children to support and want to make sure they save 10 fukking cents on cofee. And they want that medicine to be FREE. You know what I say, Fuk them! They are running this country dry. The senior mob is what they are and policians give them what they want because they know them bastards will vote.

The selfish mentality of this country and the concentration on the dollar above all else is why we're in trouble in the first place. And that discrimination knows no age. I can make an argument for the WWII'ers (ones still around) being a drain on our country, the Baby Boomers and their me-first greedy ways, the Gen-X'ers and Y'ers with their apathy and lack of sense of community....add it all up, and that's a big reason why we're fvcked.

[lyon804]

The selfish mentality of this country and the concentration on the dollar above all else is why we're in trouble in the first place. And that discrimination knows no age. I can make an argument for the WWII'ers (ones still around) being a drain on our country, the Baby Boomers and their me-first greedy ways, the Gen-X'ers and Y'ers with their apathy and lack of sense of community....add it all up, and that's a big reason why we're fvcked.

Yeah, very true.

[No coincidences]

The argument I was making in respect to my grandfather was he collected a shit ton more than he paid in. Yes he earned it I guess by working his job everyday and he also was a WW2 vet, but make no mistake SS was a huge benefit for him. Call it an investment or whatever, but he reaped waaaaay more than he paid in. I think when he retired from the pipe mill he was making $400 a week. Many years way less than that and he collected nearly $1500 a month forever. All old people think they "earned" whatever benefit they get. They think we owe it to them. I love to get behind an old lady or man at fast food joint, well not really old maybe 60 and they ask cashier, "did you give me my senior discount for my cofee"? Jesusfukkingchrist............. Most old people own all the land, have no bills because they have paid for housing and no children to support and want to make sure they save 10 fukking cents on cofee. And they want that medicine to be FREE. You know what I say, Fuk them! They are running this country dry. The senior mob is what they are and policians give them what they want because they know them bastards will vote.

And BTW, lyon, I've come across so many of what I've bolded with family, friends, acquaintances, etc. that it makes my head spin. I respect what the older generation did for this country, but that doesn't mean they should take my respect and tell me to spit-shine their shoes. There is a happy medium that no one seems to be happy with, so it doesn't exist.

[lyon804]

And BTW, lyon, I've come across so many of what I've bolded with family, friends, acquaintances, etc. that it makes my head spin. I respect what the older generation did for this country, but that doesn't mean they should take my respect and tell me to spit-shine their shoes. There is a happy medium that no one seems to be happy with, so it doesn't exist.

Sure I was talking mainly about my own family, etc.. My grandmother is on medicare and has untold amount of medications and she is always bitching at what it cost and she is reimbursed 80%? Obviously I am biased towards old people because I don't really like them because most are just burdens on the economy and the families that have to see to there shit. Maybe I am just an ass, but many of the people I am talking about have out lived there usefulness.

[No coincidences]

Sure I was talking mainly about my own family, etc.. My grandmother is on medicare and has untold amount of medications and she is always bitching at what it cost and she is reimbursed 80%? Obviously I am biased towards old people because I don't really like them because most are just burdens on the economy and the families that have to see to there shit. Maybe I am just an ass, but many of the people I am talking about have out lived there usefulness.

We as a country weren't really equipped or prepared to handle the life expectancy increase.

I had two grandmothers live to 90. They were on every medication imaginable, and continued to draw from social security and their generous retirement packages (both were Michigan teachers). Like you said, they made way more in the last 30 years of their lives thanks to that than they ever did actually working. That's great for them, but it's those situations that can definitely be a drain on the economy -- especially when they're around for 20-25 years longer than the generation before them.

[borednaz]

You know in a past life, I studied & become a christian pastor through seminary school. I'm pretty sure I'm still Ordained actually. Why did I not practice? Because of people like BigDay. People who interpret the bible in the way they see fit not the way it was written. Jesus would not turn his back on Gays. He would view what they are doing as wrong of course, but he would not refuse them nor would he not break bread with them.

It's ridiculous that so many religions formed around this caring, tolerant and compassionate man only to practice none of those traits. ...That is one sin I wish that his sacrifice could of washed away permanently.

[Sam Odom]

Jesus would not turn his back on Gays.

of course not... but He wouldnt give them His blessing to continue on with their sin

John 8:11 - She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."

[No coincidences]

It's ridiculous that so many religions formed around this caring, tolerant and compassionate man only to practice none of those traits. ...That is one sin I wish that his sacrifice could of washed away permanently.

Well said.

[Chi_archie]

You know in a past life, I studied & become a christian pastor through seminary school. I'm pretty sure I'm still Ordained actually. Why did I not practice? Because of people like BigDay. People who interpret the bible in the way they see fit not the way it was written. Jesus would not turn his back on Gays. He would view what they are doing as wrong of course, but he would not refuse them nor would he not break bread with them.

It's ridiculous that so many religions formed around this caring, tolerant and compassionate man only to practice none of those traits. ...That is one sin I wish that his sacrifice could of washed away permanently.

I hear where you are coming from, but lets not be so quick to lump one poster in with all the people that didn't interpret the Bible the way you did.

a) you don't know him, he may have a gay brother, lots of gay friends, a gay dad that he loves and accepts! who knows. All he said was he didn't think it was fair for the government to tell an established faith community that they have to perform gay marriages or lose long established tax privs

b) you are also interpreting the Bible one way YOU SEE FIT when you read it and then assume that Jesus would accept Gays, I tend to agree with your intrepretation, in general in so much as breaking bread not refusing ect.... but is is stretch to jump to changing sacraments and refusing marriage. but yeah in general establish churches have more "pharisee types in them these days but you can't just CONDEM folks with convictions in earnest. That is also being judgmental and a slippery slope.

again I see this issue not as a personal belief issue, or Bible issue, but a separation of church and state issue. its important for all religions and not just judeo-christians

[borednaz]

I hear where you are coming from, but lets not be so quick to lump one poster in with all the people that didn't interpret the Bible the way you did.

a) you don't know him, he may have a gay brother, lots of gay friends, a gay dad that he loves and accepts! who knows. All he said was he didn't think it was fair for the government to tell an established faith community that they have to perform gay marriages or lose long established tax privs

b) you are also interpreting the Bible one way YOU SEE FIT when you read it and then assume that Jesus would accept Gays, I tend to agree with your intrepretation, in general in so much as breaking bread not refusing ect.... but is is stretch to jump to changing sacraments and refusing marriage. but yeah in general establish churches have more "pharisee types in them these days but you can't just CONDEM folks with convictions in earnest. That is also being judgmental and a slippery slope.

again I see this issue not as a personal belief issue, or Bible issue, but a separation of church and state issue. its important for all religions and not just judeo-christians

Chi, He openly say's he does not accept gays. I actually do not believe a church should be forced to preform a gay marriage, nor can a Church do it if they wanted against the wishes of their mother church. ( A house divided can not stand). I also believe there should be a whole lot more separation of church and state.

Heck The less government in any matter the better. But I find it funny those who cry the loudest for less government cry the loudest to restrict the rights of other who do things they don't view as right. More laws for them, less for me. Hypocritical much?

And this is the problem with text on a computer Tone can not be conveyed. I do not feel Jesus would offer marriage to gays. Despite his tolerance of them and love for them (In the sense of love all men/women in spite of themselves)I'm sure the man could not go against a very core belief he held about man/woman and god's design.

I do not judge or at least try in earnest not to. We all do it, but when I catch myself I admit my fault and try to remember why one shouldn't judge. Even those who are closed minded have their own influences which caused them to be dead in the heart to the cries of those they oppose so much. I don't wear but one piece of jewelry a ring with the lords prayer stamped into it.

I wake up everyday to look at it. Not for the prayers sake, but to remind me that every person on this planet wants/deserves their daily bread and a safe place for them/their family to rest their heads. I only wish others especially politicians could do the same.

[BiffTFinancial]

I hear where you are coming from, but lets not be so quick to lump one poster in with all the people that didn't interpret the Bible the way you did.

a) you don't know him, he may have a gay brother, lots of gay friends, a gay dad that he loves and accepts! who knows. All he said was he didn't think it was fair for the government to tell an established faith community that they have to perform gay marriages or lose long established tax privs

b) you are also interpreting the Bible one way YOU SEE FIT when you read it and then assume that Jesus would accept Gays, I tend to agree with your intrepretation, in general in so much as breaking bread not refusing ect.... but is is stretch to jump to changing sacraments and refusing marriage. but yeah in general establish churches have more "pharisee types in them these days but you can't just CONDEM folks with convictions in earnest. That is also being judgmental and a slippery slope.

again I see this issue not as a personal belief issue, or Bible issue, but a separation of church and state issue. its important for all religions and not just judeo-christians

perhaps we should consider doing away with such ill-conceived tax privileges altogether.

[Sam Odom]

Black Churches in the USA are historically the rallying point for social & political change for African Americans with their minsters leading the charge - They , Black Churches , are still serving that purpose and to a lessor degree 'white' churches

So...

Do NOT expect a change in tax status or receiving a blind eye from the DoJ or IRS for all churches

[Shafted69]

Hey Sammy you should call this number after they announce Obama the winner:

1-800-273-8255