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Lou- voodoo's is valid. Fishhead knows voodoo so he's just tagging along and telling tales.
voodoo got a check from Heritage and the written amount on the check didn't agree with the numbers. voodoo tried to correct the situation but it's taken a little over 50 days so far.
edit- didn't realize that Tuckman explained what happened.
Last edited by raiders72001; 10-13-12 at 11:42 PM.
So it sounds like Lou was just caught in a lie...of course protecting a sponsor. Whether FH's complaint is valid or not (which i believe it is) and whether Heritage has 1 slow pay out there or 100, to announce to the forum that Heritage has no slow pays or stiffs is a complete joke.
If Fishhead were being slow paid, he would have already filed a complaint. voodoo probably isn't familiar with SBR. Lou doesn't read other forums so he was unaware of voodoo's case.
You owe someone in this thread an apology.Originally Posted by SBR Lou
Just because YOU'VE never heard of any slow-pays doesn't mean they don't exist.
An apology is not going to happen...Its easy to turn a blind eye to what you don't want to see. Sad.
If being wrong required an apology, you'd be given them 24/7.
No doubt and thanks for clearing that up, I should have in fact used a Ouija board instead of speak from first-hand knowledge of actual SBR submitted claims. How silly of me, but in all seriousness, if anyone writes in a dispute analyst will assist.
SBR Lou, do you bet?
You could always ask the person about the allegations rather than assume that you have all of the facts beforehand.
Just a thought.
Of course, someone must have an agenda to speak the truth. Is that why you've neglected to apologize?
Well one example of claim I did this with other books and then tune changes: I was friendly with them but they had financial problems and I knew it. I gave warnings. I even said they were probably going to be fine but I had to deal with 250 of their affiliates attacking me and slinging mud all over both evidence to consider and purely factual information. I'm human and I get worked up on occasion. When the company raised cash and the risks were removed, a little while later we laughed it off together, I wasn't interested in doing so because I had already moved on and had no issues with them but we were friendly before and they felt the need to. Whatever no big deal. I don't hold grudges. I actually hate discussing stuff like this in forums and prefer much more to be an anonymous leak of leaks but that's not possible a lot of the time.
In this thread I said Heritage was scummy. These type of posts are made about books all the time. Example JJGold makes short ones quite often. I used him just as known example, there are many one offs from various posters too. I was asked why and gave a few words. I have several posts on this exact board explaining why in more detail on a variety of issues. I had a back and forth post Heritage Insider where pretty sure I told him I think he has a lot of people fooled and said what I thought about them. I view them as a dishonest and scummy. Are Others Reasons but the Large Contributing Reasons:
1) Attempted bullying on a player with a dispute - I addressed this in two threads.
2) Misrepresented facts in same dispute - I addressed this in one thread and head on with them.
3) Rules that allow them to steal - I addressed this in a few threads but in one of them twice in great detail.
4) Evidence that Suggests Multiple slow pays to large winners - I've reworded here for now and will let others post, I probably shouldn't even of said it. I won't discuss that one further without details. Reasons why can be inferred multiple ways, but in short, I concede to your point on that one.
5) What appear to be multiple incentivized posters bumping this books reputation at every chance, and making personal attacks against those who disagree. I addressed this though I'm not outright calling everyone a shill, That's not logical. There's two I stated the specific reasons why. And even here maybe they're acting on their own and just want to last longer there or have leverage for a future dispute. Maybe they're not sent here direct. But these are clearly agenda posts not mine.
Heritage probably does settle disputes that come in through SBR promptly It would be foolish not to because SBR sends them many players. Heritage probably works extra hard to keep the SBR player side happy and jumps on it if a player from SBR has an issue. This makes sense it's smart business even before when most their reputation was forum built because SBR readers are the type of players they have long serviced prior to getting BetJam and TheGreek. Before they were a private book dealing with hand picked losing players: how often will they have complaints?
There are many posters who have said Heritage is a much different company now and has gone down hill since growing so large. Many saying this also still say they're fine. Me personally I view it as several of their spots have now started to show. That's my read anyway. I think they have a ton of people fooled. I've addressed this: I believe they've acted very dishonest in certain exchanges. There's additional issues people have a problem with I don't care so much about. Odds gouging or whatever, some people have an issue with I think it's just a shitty part of the industry but same way a player can offer any bet he wants to a friend, I think I can book can offer the same to a client and if they want to change it up, it's their business. But there are other small issues that others have a problem with I don't as much.
Lou I hope you understand I don't mean disrespect with this post. It's a response to a comment made about me. As far as "your tune usually changes", I'm not sure you noticed extent or not but I did the exact same thing with you. I disagreed with several of your posts in a short time frame on two major issues: $65K issue with the poker room of a book and a rigged craps game issue. I thought players were being harmed. I got worked up, and suddenly I'm disagreeing more often on others. When these issues were resolved I'm left recalling: "Lou got this player paid time X, man time Y was amazing how does he get that shitty book to pay. Plus he makes some damn funny one line posts. Lou's an okay guy, issues are resolved, acknowledge I got worked up let me go back across the web and make some edits". I'm stating this to say I don't have an agenda just sometimes issues involving books not paying or covering the risk, or padding their reputations gets me worked up. Later when I'm not so worked up the tune changes because I prefer to joke and laugh than to carry trivial issues on my back.
Lou- You deal with these complaints daily but somehow Monkey thinks that he knows more than you. Monkey's very smart when it comes to numbers. Outside of that, he has no idea what he's talking about. It's amazing that people buy into his bullshit.
All the lifetime losers play at Heritage, it's why they were invited to begin with.
This is over the top funny.
So are you stating as fact that Heritage doesn't deal multi-lines? You seem to disagree with what the OP stated.
Pay no attention to Raiders, he's pining for a job over here,*will say whatever he thinks the potential employer wants to hear.
Heritage deals two lines. Some books deal 5 lines. Greek accounts were moved to Heritage and many of those players are lifetime winners. voodoo is one of the sharpest posters on the forums.
Last edited by raiders72001; 10-14-12 at 10:47 AM.
Did you say.... "lifetime winners?"
update10-14-12 11:35 AM
Voodoo
EOG Member
- Join Date
- Oct 11, 2005
- Location
- Las Vegas
- Posts
- 97
Re: Heritage payouts suck
UPDATE: Heritage contacted me to explain the problems they had and how unacceptable
they considered the whole thing. Steps have been taken to shore up the withdraw process
I was told. The extra communication that resulted from the problem I believe will be good
in the long run and I hope that it goes well from here on out. I think it will and have tracking
info for the current withdrawal. I believe that voicing the issue here helped the cause.
Will post final update once I have cash in hand.
Congratulations to all the members who have stuck together, when battling the Books, after they are found to be out of line! Hey, this is probably the damnedest sport to win[Football], with million dollar computers [including duels lines]dominating; handicappers, hunch players, and midd'lers. Add another, almost, unbeatable obstacle; Pigskins flying wildly at a record pace!
WE DESERVE A BREAK!
And sticking together, will ensure we will at least get what we deserve; hope and a prayer./
*Added note: I do not believe Heritage is presently using two lines. If not, there will be no need to file a legitimate complaint with SBR.
Any member believing otherwise, please let me know?
Hi Prop,
Thank you for taking the time to voice your concerns. I'll try to address each point as best I can.
Cory dispute
Regarding the Cory dispute: I was originally dealing with it, and Cory himself phoned Heritage asking for the case to be transferred to Justin. He preferred him for the comprehensive job he did representing him on a prior dispute against another sportsbook; he also believes I dislike him. Justin was assigned the case and spent days speaking with Cory's mom and Heritage, piecing together the time-line as best he could with what he had to work with. Ultimately, Cory's mom was unwilling to provide information considered vital to establishing her innocence. Fast-forwarding, Cory was unhappy with Justin's decision. He asked Heritage to go to another arbitration.
There's simply no basis with which to suggest Heritage unfairly treated Cory or as you put it, "bullied". Cory was advised they were in fact open to another arbitration, but asked him to stop using the forum to mislead the public while the dispute was yet again reopened. Also, as many have commented, Cory actually hurt himself by accidentally implicating himself on more than one occasion when this whole deal was supposed to be his mother playing. Heritage is fully open to SBR John's suggestion of binding arbitration with a licensed service in the UK or elsewhere --- there's really no way to conclude that a sportsbook could have been more open, patient, or thorough in putting a player in a position to receive an unbiased, fair decision on an alleged breach of house rules. Many wouldn't have given Cory the time of day in light of his industry rap sheet, if you will.
"Slow-pays"
I missed the mark earlier in this thread when I spoke of Heritage payouts, I realized that after taking a step back and considering the opinions voiced in here. I hope this will clear any confusion up. The words "slow-pay" can be used literally to describe a sportsbook not meeting their advertised time-frame... but, many seasoned players and folks intimately aware of this industry will tell you that a "slow-pay" book refers to one with chronic payout issues, one that deliberately stalls withdrawals. Heritage prides itself on its withdrawals, I think the fact that we're discussing few isolated cases in relation to their volume now (particularly after more than doubling its size) is a testament to their efficiency in this regard. Heritage is most certainly not a "slow-pay" shop; there have been instances where due to their own errors, they've not delivered within the usual time. If they wanted to be like other shops, they could blame third-party processors, but that's not what they do. Heritage doesn't make excuses, and they shoulder the blame for any instance where a payout isn't in a player's hands as fast as it ought to be.
Rules designed to protect them
This is a simple one. Every book has a rule designed to protect themselves from being exposed to fraud, but not every book expresses the following: "Heritage Sports has always considered common sense and good judgment in accessing all client interactions questions and claims. We have included the following rules for consideration and as a guide to decision making."
I'd say that agreeing to yet another third-party (binding) review of the case you seem most troubled by is an example that this book cares about getting it right - they're not ruling with a closed fist.
"Shilling"
Lastly, you maintain the belief that there are multiple users who are financially rewarded to post about Heritage. I'd challenge you to name them, unless you're suggesting everyone who helped vote them tied for third in the SBR users poll is on the take?
Back when Heritage was invite-only, they asked one of their vocal players who has an account with SBR to tone down his constant posting, because it looked like some nut on the payroll or selling his forum soul for a freeplay. What's more, unbeknownst to many forum users, there are guys that try to extort books in exchange for posting, people who threaten to smear or post hot air. We actually saw evidence of this with another book in the last month. The reason I asked you to speak in specifics is the same as I'd ask anyone - because I have seen how far desperation has taken some gamblers.
Heritage management reads the forum because they care about what people say about them. They pride themselves on their business and have never in their history cheated a player. Their manager would even like to chat with you if you're up for it.
Everytime ive had a problem with heritage ive been taken care of with quickness. ive only had a couple of problems and they really didnt fall on heritage but they took care of me. But this problem you have to me is pretty simple to fix add another book to play with so you can compare lines and take the line that fits you. no reason to bash a book over 1/2 a point. ive lost to half a point so many times but ive also so won by 1/2. Sounds like you were on tilt and went all in and lost.
I disagree completely. I am a great client. I do not recall ever winning at Heritage throughout a whole sports season, be it football or basketball?
Then, you start another year of football with them and are have a terrible time winning close games. Losing freaky ways. Losing against sound logic. Then, with some help from outside, I understand I have been chosen to be one of those special customers. Special, meaning I'll not get the chance to see pointspreads I would define as :juicy-lines."
Then you call and see if these special lines are actually being posted with other clientele, and two supervisiors go into denial mode. However, and to your stunned amazement, after some investigations and SBR members stating they do have duel lines, yes indeed, it appears they do run at least two lines.
Sports betters are probably the biggest suckers on the planet? They use all kinds of methods, especially the # 1 culprit, their ego, and try and try to convince themselves that winning and winning big, is one big hit away. Maybe that 3 to 10k parlay hit? My experienced math tells me that only 1 in 40 gamblers will get through the season and still have their head above water.
So Tatommack, why should I be a victim of deceit by some rich Book, a Book that is winning hand over fist? Why not give me an honest chance, instead of focusing on double-teaming me?
It's much like marking cards in a deck of cards! I want that equal chance and I deserve it! The point you seem to be missing is, IT'S UNETHICAL!
Now, Tato, I have no reason as of today to bitch any further about them. They seemed to have cleaned up their act, at least with me?
There's only point worth logging back in to comment on but I might as well as make it well with more word:
I'm not at all convinced of guilt. I've read every word posted on this case many times, I've made phone calls and heavily investigated both Cory and his Mom to the best of my ability. At one point Cory did contact me with a question and this short conversation ended with at this time I can't discuss this in private with him. Had I started doing so I would have to disclose this. I wished to maintain the position of an outsider looking at the evidence anyone can uncover.
There is nothing I know about this dispute that can't be found making a few phone calls, looking in phone book, doing some Google searching, querying some records and reading all that's been written. Nothing that has been shared so far justifies not paying the win. I could go on and on here but if you want to get picky over wording he also at one point says the wrong books name when referring to Heritage and corrects it when asked. It would be ridiculous to claim that this slip ads credibility to the claim it was his Mom, but sure I could say that unfairly if that was my train of thought.
He's heated and has had to deal with other books robbing him and believes there was collusion. This is what he suspects and there's an indication Justin was delivered hands from his play at EZStreet by Heritage. True or not I don't know but this indication appears to exist.
Cory says he was banned by Heritage over the situation with EZStreet. Player feels colluded against has been robbed etc. So at some point he says I instead of she in a heated and frustrating debate when he feels he's dealing with a team that robbed him and his mom. Said something like this and it is taken as admission of his guilt? Heritage is insistent about his guilt already. Call logs probably show this, but their own words posted on forums show it as well. They are so convinced of guilt they are not interested in acting fair IMO (more on that in a minute).
The issues about rules etc, Icovered already elsewhere. I would say rules should be there to protect both the player and the book equally as is the case with example Pinnacle and Bookmaker. The issues about posters I've covered. The issue about dishonest spin I've covered. I wrote so much about them; find that in other posts.
I have not talked to Cory nor his Mom other than what I mentioned and I don't know him or her. I had no dealings with Heritage either or much opinion about them All this was just me, someone looking at all I could uncover and thinking wow this doesn't add up. I have a lot respect for Justin7 and really some of his posts before he stopped responding didn't add up too. I sent him a long email a while into this and after some responses figured okay fair enough. But this was a "default ruling" that's all.
There is evidence released that the player was already highly sceptical of the mediation. They "dropped out" of the process... that's all that happened. It was spun as arbitrator of own choice. Heritage so nice to agree etc. Weeks after reading this stuff I'm out at Sizzlers with my family and I'm just freaking consumed with the details. Posts are running through my head about the way this was all handled... is there something I'm missing here etc.
The only reason for interest in this case is how freaked up it's been handled. You can spin anyway you want and say how great of a company they have been... BUT... they are insistent on "their way!" I suggested this and called him out on it weeks ago. Get with the player and come to a common ground on an arbitration process BOTH sides can agree are FAIR..
I don't even care about the results at that point. That's it. Their only offer is to subject the player to more mediation/arbitration the player does not agree is fair why spinning it how more than fair they've been. Why? I don't know perhaps 1) they've been looking to mug him/her this entire time or 2) They are just so sure of his guilt but can't prove that they can't risk going to "fair" resolution process. The second is more likely than the first but I don't know I'm sure there are other possible reasons as well.
In getting consumed with this case I read more and more about Heritage. I had direct debate with them. I didn't have it out for them. I learned to strongly strongly dislike them - but this was also on more uncovered and other interactions and never have been saying they should pay up. They should offer the player who lost $20,000 to $30,000 in their casino they wouldn't of got back had they not won back these losses a means of arbitration that they and the player come to terms on in agreeing it is FAIR - instead of going on about non disclosed charities, already had arbitrator of own choice, we're more than fair look at me we're great spins etc. Other than this they should also fix their rules (Correlated betting rule could strongly use some rewording clarification). not sure what more there is to discuss.
I can't speak for others but I joined SBRForum.com because I'm passionate about fair gambling and loved what this site has done over the years. Recently though I've been given infractions twice, lifetime banned once, put on slow server, 6000 second post timer, been accused of playing games, been on post moderation and more. Forgive me for losing my interested in discussing this further here. The only reason logging back in is to say I hope Heritage if they are the honest company they claim to be can take a step back, look at this and consider giving this player a fair means for resolution that both sides mutually agree is fair and binding.
Last edited by prop; 10-15-12 at 12:09 PM.
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in response to a question whether Cory was banned for "using a bot" , heritage said that he was only banned because of the EZ Street situation and that they didn't feel comfortable taking his action.
My 2 cents... I have also talked to a few people in the industry and this is a fact. Cory and his business is persona non gratis at quite a few services and quite a few of these places did this before Heritage and the EZ debacles. Man, never thought I would write a sentence with Heritage and EZ in it at the same time. I was also told by highly reliable sources that some of these places have this opinion for some fairly serious reasons... which include having to do with the manner in which he tried to fund accounts. That is all I will say and not disclose details... but my sources are granite rock solid and I believe every word I was told by these individuals, period. In a case like this it could take up to 90 days or more to be resolved and I dont think that is unfair considering the amount of money involved... fck around with a bank and see what happens... the larger the amount of money involved the longer it is gonna take and I cant blame Heritage from not wanting to get screwed either. I am also not supporting Heritage nor am I supporting Cory... but Karma is a bich either way.
PS... if in fact the mother of Cory opened that account and played all those casino hands and let her son use it just one time, and I mean one time for just one hand then that is that. The whole mess smells bad... and with vpn and proxy servers and cloakers and the nature of extreme gamblers, which Cory is by the nature and volume of his action, makes this a very difficult case which also means it will take some time before any large amounts of money being paid is resolved.
as a company owner myself i choose who i want to do business with. some races slow pay or dont pay and i have a family to feed. when they call i just hang up on them. heritage can run their operation how ever they want. i dont see to many complaints on here about them so thats pretty much a good thing in my book. ive seen them take care of stupid players when the player is clearly in the wrong. no other sportsbook would do that. unless they are dealing lines like betus 5 -10 points which ive seen first hand a 1/2 is nothing to bitch about. id be the first to try and destroy a book if i felt i was being taken advantage of. i go outa my way to bash betus. good luck
RIGHT... a business is a business. You technically can choose your customers. If your sharp you can be limited in many ways and this has always been the case with booking. You are not entitled to a bonus... a bonus originally was maybe 10% or even 20% for really bad players and the book just wanted to help stretch their funds and show their appreciation, like a small comp. Then the marketing geniuses blew that whole system to hell in the offshore industry over the last 7 years. Sharps can also have their limits reduced and if a service can offer reduced juice then they can offer slightly higher juice to wiseguy accounts. Also, like tatommack says, a half point or so is nothing, part of the business... not like it is 5 or 10... and if it was extreme, play the other side. It is the customer playing against the house or head linesman, which in this case is a well known numbers guy that used to post on SBR... so if you think you can beat em, play. If not, find a service with softer lines and that has not already profiled you as sharp and willing to throw you a big bonus because they dont know any better yet. Oh, by the way... your a sharp if the house says you are... the end.
Also, if you are profiled a sharp and you insist on looking at the public line then your the joke, not the jokes on you... you know better. The only problem would be if your logged into your account and you choose a line and when you confirm it has changed... if you are shown the line while logged in thats what you should get. Also, tiny delays for steam chasers is also acceptable... common practice. You may not like it but there are many services to choose from, find another that does not know you.
Last edited by touchback; 10-15-12 at 03:30 PM.
These two non-pros above seem really, really dumb?
Hmmmm, well... it is unfortunate that this could not be continued using such things as the continuum of validaty with the underlying principles of forensic debate originating from the first great Greek Republic with such famous debaters as Korax and Tisias, which is where the saying Heads I Win and Tales You Lose comes from so I will play along... UR MOMMAThese two non-pros above seem really, really dumb?
Last edited by touchback; 10-15-12 at 07:28 PM.
I have an unwritten rule Touchback: Don't read or post on my threads when it's a serious topic, unless you have reached my over/under total of 1000 posts..
It's okay to post on my joke threads, though.
See you in 2 years.
abe ive been scammed out 6k by 2 different books. im sorry but 1/2 a point seems pointless. now betus give me 5-10 spreads compared to a buddy of mine. if they were doing that then i could see making multiple threads about this. but your only talking half a point it wouldnt be worth it if they closed your account over half a point. i really hope everything works out for you. we only have a few books worth a crap to play at where our money is safe. if everyone comes on here bitching about every little thing then heritage might say screw it and not take care of us with our other issues. best of luck to you id tread lightly they know theres only a few options for us US players and once people figure out the books are scams heritage will have plenty of customers and wont have to go out of there way to keep us happy.
Okay Tato. Everyone has an opinion, but you still seem to miss the point, plus, millions and even billions of loot have been won or lost by that little ol' 1/2 you take so nonchalantly.
The main point [did you see where I still gave them an A+?]you are not taking serious; I was likely being taken advantage of, and probably many other clients, too? And, was I lied to?
I have already forgiven them as of now, but hopefully they will not have two sports lines anymore? Keep in mind though, they have not been proven guilty with concrete evidence, just plenty of the circumstantial type, so I say, let this thread die and let's move on.
I am happy now, and they are cleaner in my eyes.
Thanks for the nice post.
Yep. Same here. But we're the ones with agendas.
The people who have voiced their opposition have been silenced.
And now, I'm silencing myself permanently from this site.
Well done, Lou.
Give, your points to PROP first!!!!!
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