1. #1
    Statman
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    Winner of Kings Bishop Stakes wins on short rest?

    Wins on 2 days full rest and claimed for $25k in March and then wins a G1? What is going on with this sport that this is allowed to happen? The NBC broadcast said Rick Dutrow is under something like a 10 yr suspension from the NYRA which he is appealing? He apparently has a long history of drug issues as a trainer. Is there a chance this sport will ever correct itself or is the public just along for a ride? I recall I used to follow horse racing much more but it's sh... like this that just turned me off. It would be nice to see a full documentary on the dark side of this sport with interviews from people on the inside.

  2. #2
    Easy-Rider 66
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    NY Times did an expose on the industry about 6 months ago. It was not a positive article. In capping the King Bishop today threw the Willy Beamin horse out because he just raced like 3 days ago.

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    big joe 1212
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    And his last race he won but the time was not that all impressive. I never gave him consideration.

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    mikemca
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statman View Post
    Wins on 2 days full rest and claimed for $25k in March and then wins a G1? What is going on with this sport that this is allowed to happen? The NBC broadcast said Rick Dutrow is under something like a 10 yr suspension from the NYRA which he is appealing? He apparently has a long history of drug issues as a trainer. Is there a chance this sport will ever correct itself or is the public just along for a ride? I recall I used to follow horse racing much more but it's sh... like this that just turned me off. It would be nice to see a full documentary on the dark side of this sport with interviews from people on the inside.

    It is really disgusting especially after Doug Oneill ,who is another on suspension and has a long history of violations, wins the Derby and Preakness with I'll Have Another.Then Dutrow pulls this shyt.It makes the sport look foolish.



    Quote Originally Posted by Easy-Rider 66 View Post
    NY Times did an expose on the industry about 6 months ago. It was not a positive article. In capping the King Bishop today threw the Willy Beamin horse out because he just raced like 3 days ago.
    Dutrow is something like 6 for his last 8 or something ridiculous like that with horses coming back on 3 days rest.With all Dutrow's horses though its a guessing game which is even more evidence that he uses something.His horses run lights out or don't run a step.

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    Dark Horse
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    I don't see anything wrong with it. Just because handicappers didn't expect it that doesn't mean it's foul play.

  6. #6
    Statman
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    Here's a recent piece from May of this year...I'm sure we've all heard of the saying 'where's the smoke. there's fire' ?..This guy is sure keeping his lawyers busy...Seems like there is just way too many incidents to be considered random.













    • Rick Dutrow and Zetterholm prepare for the 140th running of the Belmont Stakes.  >


    Rick Dutrow and Zetterholm prepare for the 140th running of the Belmont…

    Dutrow brings baggage to Preakness

    JERRY BOSSERT
    Tuesday, May 15, 2012

    BALTIMORE — Four years ago, trainer Rick Dutrow Jr. returned home to Maryland a winner with Kentucky Derby champ Big Brown. The 3-year-old colt didn’t disappoint, easily winning the Preakness Stakes. The score had Dutrow chirping that Big Brown would be the next Triple Crown winner. That never happened, as Big Brown was a bust in the Belmont Stakes, ending a Triple Crown run that was fueled with controversy, including steroids. Horse racing is trying to clean up its act, eliminating steroid use, but Dutrow continues to find trouble. Dutrow, 52, will have another Preakness starter Saturday in longshot Zetterholm, but on May 22, his lawyers will be in Albany before the New York Supreme Court Appellate Division fighting for his career. On Oct. 12, the New York State Racing and Wagering Board unanimously revoked Dutrow’s license for 10 years and fined him $50,000 for violations relating to a post-race positive of one of his horses and the unlicensed possession of hypodermic syringes. The ban and fine represented one of the most significant penalties ever issued by the NYSRWB. On Nov. 3, 2010, three unlabeled syringes containing the drug xyzaline, an analgesic and tranquilizer that can enhance performance by alleviating lameness or calming a nervous horse, were found in Dutrow’s desk in his barn at Aqueduct. Just over two weeks later, Dutrow’s Fastus Cactus tested for the drug butorphanol — which according to the board is 10 times more potent than morphine — when finishing first in the third race at Aqueduct on Nov. 20. The initial suspension was for just 90 days, but was increased because of Dutrow’s history, which includes numerous violations dating back to 1979 at 15 different tracks. Dutrow’s past cost him a starter in last year’s Preakness when owner John Fort took Flashpoint away from him and gave the runner to trainer Wesley Ward, who saddled the 3-year-old to a 14th-place finish. This year, Dutrow is as strong as ever, currently on top of the training standings at Belmont with nine winners, and is ninth in the country with stable earnings of $2,561,468. The NYSRWB would not comment, while Dutrow’s attorney Michael Koenig simply said, “We’re looking forward to share our thoughts and views with the appellate court.” According to the Board, after the oral arguments are heard, the Court can render its decision in weeks or months. -- Kentucky Derby winner I’ll Have Another spent Tuesday out of the rain and in trainer Doug O’Neill’s barn. With heavy rain hitting the Baltimore area, O’Neill played it safe and kept the Derby winner under cover in his barn. -- Bodemeister, expected to be named the morning-line favorite at the post-position draw Wednesday at 6 p.m., will be flown to Baltimore on Wednesday after training at Churchill Downs, according to trainer Bob Baffert.
    -- After Daddy Nose Best finished a distant 10th in the Kentucky Derby, owner Bob Zollars confirmed that the horse will try to rebound in the Preakness Stakes

  7. #7
    mikemca
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Horse View Post
    I don't see anything wrong with it. Just because handicappers didn't expect it that doesn't mean it's foul play.

    You seem like a smart guy but think you being naive here.Willy Beamin was getting trounced in statebred races for a pretty good trainer in D Schettino before Dutrow claimed him for 25k and improved him 20-25 lengths.Dutrow's horses can come into a race with figures that tower over the field and not run a step or they come in like 20 points short of competitive and win by 7.That is the biggest indicator of foul play and impossible to handicap other than just guessing.They run out of their skin until whatever magic potion they are filled with wears off.Then they get laid up and come back after a rest for another run.The pattern is the same for all the shady trainers like Ness,Oneill,Guerrero(When he was in Philly),Dutrow,Rudy(Dutrow's pupil),Mullins,Zadie.

  8. #8
    Dark Horse
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemca View Post
    You seem like a smart guy but think you being naive here.Willy Beamin was getting trounced in statebred races for a pretty good trainer in D Schettino before Dutrow claimed him for 25k and improved him 20-25 lengths.Dutrow's horses can come into a race with figures that tower over the field and not run a step or they come in like 20 points short of competitive and win by 7.That is the biggest indicator of foul play and impossible to handicap other than just guessing.They run out of their skin until whatever magic potion they are filled with wears off.Then they get laid up and come back after a rest for another run.The pattern is the same for all the shady trainers like Ness,Oneill,Guerrero(When he was in Philly),Dutrow,Rudy(Dutrow's pupil),Mullins,Zadie.
    Serious allegation. But you also brought I'll Have Another into the discussion, who won two TC races clean. I'm not saying that everything all those trainers do is always 100% above water, but I don't see the clear patterns you're talking about. I didn't handicap Willy Beamin for the King's Bishop, but will do so in retrospect to see if he would have fired in accordance with my method (IHA certainly did). I closely followed the O'Neill witch hunt in the leadup to the Belmont, and wasn't too impressed with the hunters, to put it nicely. In their blind negativity they gave the important process of testing for drugs etc a black eye.

  9. #9
    mikemca
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Horse View Post
    Serious allegation. But you also brought I'll Have Another into the discussion, who won two TC races clean. I'm not saying that everything all those trainers do is always 100% above water, but I don't see the clear patterns you're talking about. I didn't handicap Willy Beamin for the King's Bishop, but will do so in retrospect to see if he would have fired in accordance with my method (IHA certainly did). I closely followed the O'Neill witch hunt in the leadup to the Belmont, and wasn't too impressed with the hunters, to put it nicely. In their blind negativity they gave the important process of testing for drugs etc a black eye.

    I can make Mine That Bird figure after the derby was run.There is know way to say positively whether I'll Have Another was legit.The testing done today is 3-5 years behind the chemists trainers have become.The only time he was under the microscope he scratched out of the Belmont with a condition they could have been masking for his prior races.My point is when there is a lot of money to be had people will go to great lengths to get an edge whatever way they can.Look at Baseball,Football,Cycling,Track and Field, etc...The only difference is when you get caught in those sports you face serious consequences where in horse racing you get a slap on the wrist which doesn't even effect your stable when you can just have your assistant take over while you're suspended.

    If they stiffen the penalty to where you get kicked out of racing maybe trainers and owners will be deterred.

  10. #10
    TonyP
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    one of the first things my mentor taught me was , wherever theres money theres thieves, and they can come in many different forms. in horse racing , drugging, darkening, and to make note of these (cheaters) so they dont get another one by you. With that said all of the above take note

  11. #11
    Dark Horse
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemca View Post
    I can make Mine That Bird figure after the derby was run.There is know way to say positively whether I'll Have Another was legit.The testing done today is 3-5 years behind the chemists trainers have become.The only time he was under the microscope he scratched out of the Belmont with a condition they could have been masking for his prior races.My point is when there is a lot of money to be had people will go to great lengths to get an edge whatever way they can.Look at Baseball,Football,Cycling,Track and Field, etc...The only difference is when you get caught in those sports you face serious consequences where in horse racing you get a slap on the wrist which doesn't even effect your stable when you can just have your assistant take over while you're suspended.

    If they stiffen the penalty to where you get kicked out of racing maybe trainers and owners will be deterred.
    Do you really think I'm going to cheat here to make myself like good? If you're going to distrust this, fine by me, but my pre-race method shows Willy Beamin to run a very strong race. I would have given him a Beyer projection of 97 or 98. I don't know what he won the race with.

    Also, it would seem he didn't spend a whole lot of energy in the previous race, which he easily won by 6 lengths, running just a 84 Beyer (11 below the 95 he had run back in June).

    As to the allegation that horses start running 20 numbers better with certain trainers. Willy Beamin was claimed in March, at an age of 35 months. Dutrow did get a sharp improvement out of him, but it was more gradual (not in one race), and at this age this is not unusual. Why would you assume he had peaked already?

    So for IHA and Willy Beamin I'm going by methodology. You can certainly distrust this model, but I would take its precision anytime over a general opinion. And in my view there's far too much general opinion floating around about drug related issues, which is not helpful, and actually helps offenders by creating a climate where lack of clarity is the norm. Only precision will stick. Wild allegations will not.
    Last edited by Dark Horse; 08-27-12 at 12:53 PM.

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    TonyP
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    LOL opinion floating around on drug related issues. now that darkhorse is hilarious. How many violations does Dutrow have, oh wait didnt he just get suspended for several years for drug violations although in appeal now this is fact not opinion, Drug Oniel serving a suspension as I type this, not opinion fact. so looks like with all those violations that is fact not opinion.

  13. #13
    TonyP
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    meant Doug Oniel in above post not Drug Oniel

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    Dark Horse
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyP View Post
    LOL opinion floating around on drug related issues. now that darkhorse is hilarious. How many violations does Dutrow have, oh wait didnt he just get suspended for several years for drug violations although in appeal now this is fact not opinion, Drug Oniel serving a suspension as I type this, not opinion fact. so looks like with all those violations that is fact not opinion.
    This is about Willy Beamin.

    The O'Neill suspension is unrelated to IHA, and if my memory serves me right the horse in question finished 7th.

    Feel free to respond to the other points I made about Willy Beamin. In a constructive way, preferably.

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    mikemca
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    I'm not going to go in circles with you and haven't a clue what goes into your "pre-race method" post race but I was pretty certain it would come up with Willy Beamin being a contender.

    We'll see how the Dutrow's and Oneill's of the world do when they finally clean up the sport.

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    JakeLc
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    My data had him running his lifetime top in his last start

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    TonyP
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    The Oneil suspension is unrelated to IHA however with all his violations and all of a sudden IHA gets scratched out of tbe 3rd leg of TC after winning first 2 certainly makes me question if IHA didnt have a little help in the pryor 2, not say he did not ruling it out only saying he is a cheater with multiple violations so its possible.

    Steamin Beamin was a pick of someone I know , with Dickie getting them ready on short notice as this seams to be his forte however he has multiple violations as well so one could certainly consider the possibility.

    both those trainers mentioned above have been busted for multiple violations so they are cheaters and this is a fact not opinion and any horse they have win under unusual circumstances make me question , did the horse have a little help because lots of their horses do.

  18. #18
    Dark Horse
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemca View Post
    I'm not going to go in circles with you and haven't a clue what goes into your "pre-race method" post race but I was pretty certain it would come up with Willy Beamin being a contender.
    Good to know you have such faith in my method, while not knowing anything about it.

    Tough crowd. And not a constructive use of my time either.

  19. #19
    TonyP
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    Darkhourse what do you think would happen if they started bringing up criminal charges for these violations?

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    JakeLc
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    is the game really serious about cleaning itself up? not really

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    LT Profits
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    Two words: Oscar Barrera. Claimed Shifty Shiek for like 35K and a few races later ran third to Slew'O'Gold in a Grade 1...and at only 6/1 no less.

  22. #22
    mikemca
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Horse View Post
    Good to know you have such faith in my method, while not knowing anything about it.

    Tough crowd. And not a constructive use of my time either.

    Well when you come in with a superiority complex with your 87 step method, saying peoples opinion are "general opinion" while you are precise and accurate, sorry but you are going to draw a tough crowd.I don't care about your method , you landed on Willy Beamin 2 days after he won the race ,good job.I like the 8/6/5 Pick 3 in the 6th at Saratoga today.The huge jump ups are not wild allegations .The same figure makers have been using the same data for the last 25+ years to make their #'s.They also believe that the trainers I listed plus some are cheating.And in my view their opinion is far more likely to be right than some guy who wears rose colored glasses.If you read this hope I didn't waste to much of your precious time.

  23. #23
    mikemca
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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeLc View Post
    is the game really serious about cleaning itself up? not really


    No and thats why its falling off a cliff.I mean imagine you are new to the game this year.You check out the Triple Crown to see the winners trainer of the first 2 classics is also leading the sport in drug violations per starter.Then you all set to watch this guy win the triple crown but hear all kinds of rumors about the tight security on the horses because New York is going to make sure no horses are shady and running on enhancers.Umm scratch. Then the Travers comes on channel 10 and you watch as a guy who is supposed to be suspended for 10 years for drug violations is racing anyway and wins a Grade 1.With a horse he claimed for 25k a couple months ago no less while the trainer of the triple crown horse is serving a suspension.His horses are still running though just for his assistant.It laughable how fcked up the sport is run

    Doug Oneill and Rick Dutrow only medicated 10,000 other horses not these ones.


    There is a movement to ban all raceday meds like they do everywhere else in the world.I think that and harsh suspensions are the only way to start bringing the sport back.
    Last edited by mikemca; 08-27-12 at 06:05 PM.

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    Dark Horse
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemca View Post
    Well when you come in with a superiority complex with your 87 step method, saying peoples opinion are "general opinion" while you are precise and accurate, sorry but you are going to draw a tough crowd.I don't care about your method , you landed on Willy Beamin 2 days after he won the race ,good job.I like the 8/6/5 Pick 3 in the 6th at Saratoga today.The huge jump ups are not wild allegations .The same figure makers have been using the same data for the last 25+ years to make their #'s.They also believe that the trainers I listed plus some are cheating.And in my view their opinion is far more likely to be right than some guy who wears rose colored glasses.If you read this hope I didn't waste to much of your precious time.
    Whatever floats your boat. Trainers are cheating, and I'm grandstanding. Not surprising you didn't respond to the fact that he only ran a 84 and took it easy in the earlier race. Your mind is already made up. In that regard we are 180 degrees apart. I assume I know nothing and take every race as a learning opportunity. If that is a superiority complex, I'll take it. I did, in good faith, run Willy Beamin through my model. For the sake of this discussion. What I failed to realize is that there is nothing to discuss. My mistake. I did not intend to trigger you ego and turn this into a pissing contest. I wish you good luck, and feel certain you're better at judging the horses than people.
    Last edited by Dark Horse; 08-27-12 at 07:00 PM.

  25. #25
    JakeLc
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    You have short fields now and foal populations dropping like a rock.
    If you start kicking major barns and owners out then what will those fields look like?
    What racing jurisdiction is going to take that upon itself?
    Last edited by JakeLc; 08-27-12 at 06:19 PM.

  26. #26
    mikemca
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Horse View Post

    Whatever floats your boat. Trainers are cheating, and I'm grandstanding. Not surprising you didn't respond to the fact that he only ran a 84 and took it easy in the earlier race. Your mind is already made up. In that regard we are 180 degrees apart. I assume I know nothing and take every race as a learning opportunity. If that is a superiority complex, I'll take it. I did, in good faith, run Willy Beamin through my model. For the sake of this discussion. What I failed to realize is that there is nothing to discuss. My mistake. I did not intend to trigger you ego and turn this into a pissing contest. I wish you good luck, and feel certain you're better at judging the horses than people.
    If you read the way you started this thread until this last post its easy enough to see how you try to manipulate the way you're perceived. So to answer the first question you asked me.Yes.

    That earlier race was a statebred stake.See how many horses can repeat the same races stepping up in an open grade 1.I'm guessing you won't find many but that doesn't matter when you handicap the race after its over.The huge class jump isn't a question mark anymore.

    The reason there is nothing to discuss is because you think 2 guys with a 10-15 year history of drug violations aren't cheating.One of which got caught with needles in his barn.Its like trying to argue with someone who doesn't think global warming is real.No matter how glaringly obvious it is .

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeLc View Post
    You have short fields now and foal populations dropping like a rock.
    If you start kicking major barns and owners out then what will those fields look like?
    What racing jurisdiction is going to take that upon itself?
    If they don't do anything wrong they won't get kicked out.Right now there are barely any consequences so why not get every edge you can to win .The Breeders Cup is starting the no race day meds rule , that is why Santa Anita got the BC next year because they agreed.I don't see any downside to it .Why can they run everywhere else but North America without Lasix ?

  27. #27
    Dark Horse
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    If you can back up your statements with a reasonable sample size of actual data I would be interested in seeing them. But the way you paint someone like O'Neill is so over-the-top extreme that I see little reason to continue this conversation.

    I assure you I have zero interest in the way I'm being perceived here. For the sake of a more constructive discussion than a one-sided drug accusation, I ran Willy Beamin through my model, which is mechanical, without any post race changes. The Beyer figure I would have assigned him would have been 97-98. By no means spectacular, but good for him. I have not handicapped the rest of the race, and doubt that would have identified him as the winner. But you skip all that, because you already know which way the wind blows. Apparently, the fact that this is 2-3 points higher than his previous high is reason for distrust. From a handicapping perspective I find that reasonably absurd for a three year old. If you hadn't jumped the gun you would have seen that I never claimed to have identified the winner -after the fact -, but merely that I wouldn't have tossed him out. Do you see the difference? In the end the misjudgment was mine for not reading this crowd better. The drug issue is often discussed at drf, and I expected the more balanced outlook one finds there; including the negative, but not limited to it. I think I know where you're coming from, and I hate the drug problem as much as you, but I refuse to make it cloud my judgment to the point where I blindly assume it is in play. Clearly, many players tossed out Willy Beamin, so you can imagine how that would affect this argument; lot easier to accuse others for money lost than admit to one's own ignorance. Yet those who choose that last option are the ones who continue to get better. And isn't that what matters in the end?

    Pretty good chance I'll bet against Willy Beamin the next time around, so perhaps this is to be continued then.
    Last edited by Dark Horse; 08-28-12 at 01:47 AM.

  28. #28
    JakeLc
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    As an example fields are short in California now.
    It doesn't look any better down the road.If you kicked out the cheaters what would field size be like then?
    So the beat goes on.

  29. #29
    TonyP
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    darkhorse are you trying to say that Doug Oniel is not a cheater?What more data do you need on Doug Oniel darkhorse?

    The CHRB has put him on suspension for multiple drug violations. I dont think one would get this many violations if you were not a cheater.The drugs he used are performance inhancing and against the CHRB rules, wich Doug Oniel should know these rules as a local California trainer for (insert how many years) The only reason one would use these drugs is to make your horse out perform the others if the others were not on drugs, or make your horse outperform his normal performance and give you an edge on picking up the easy purse money. Now to give something that is deemed illegal by the CHRB and performance inhancing would leave one little doubt that the person who gave these drugs was trying to make there horse outperform any in the field to secure the purse money therefore CHEATING.
    Heres you some links Darkhorse for drug violations.

    http://www.rmtcnet.com/content_recentrulings.asp

    http://www.chrb.ca.gov/advisories/20...6_advisory.pdf

    http://www.chrb.ca.gov/stewards_rulings_dm.html

    http://www.chrb.ca.gov/rules_law.html

  30. #30
    Statman
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    Guys,

    So in those cases where a trainer was indeed suspended and served their time, are the purse winnings also revoked from the trainer/owner involved?

  31. #31
    str
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statman View Post
    Guys,

    So in those cases where a trainer was indeed suspended and served their time, are the purse winnings also revoked from the trainer/owner involved?
    Yes, unless it is am extremely odd circumstance.

  32. #32
    Dark Horse
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyP View Post
    darkhorse are you trying to say that Doug Oniel is not a cheater?What more data do you need on Doug Oniel darkhorse?
    I'm saying you can't win an argument against any extremist, tonyp, and that would include the witch hunters in the otherwise legit anti-drug movement. If Willy Beamin would have lost the King's Bishop, they wouldn't have said a thing, but they triumphantly point at O'Neill's suspension, even when that horse finished 7th in some low level race, if my memory serves me right. In addition, the suspension he is currently serving is not based on proof, but on suspicion, which is enough to suspend; again, if my memory serves me right. I sort of put it out of my mind after the sick grandstandish circus surrounding the Belmont. Of course, I'm all for solving the drug problem. If that is in the cards, could we start with Lasix?

    As far as O'Neill, the negative publicity coincided with IHA winning the Kentucky Derby. Front page news. What does that tell you? Currently his stable is doing extremely well at Del Mar. My impression is that he's a great trainer and the nicest of guys. Do I have any expertise about the countless forbidden drugs and doping control? Of course not. Neither do most of you guys. It doesn't matter if he serves this suspension, in the court of public opinion he is condemned for the rest of his life. It's that part that doesn't fly with me.

    As far as Willy Beamin running on two days rest. I think it's gutsy and highly unconventional. And I just happen to love that combination. I wish more people had it. That said, if it's ever proven that he ran on forbidden drugs, I'll gladly stand corrected. Until that time, I salute you for your all-knowingness in this matter.
    Last edited by Dark Horse; 08-28-12 at 04:32 PM.

  33. #33
    str
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    Guys,

    The difficulty here is understanding which drugs were mistakes and which were ridiculous, at least IMO, to be in the horses system when they were racing.
    When they call any drug "performance enhancing" it can and is misleading. For people, aspirin CAN be performance enhancing but so is heroin. Totally different right? So when I see any trainer have a clembuterol overage unless it is WAY over trace level , it is almost assuredly a mistake as to when the horse was taken off the medication. The key to this is some drugs are used almost daily on many horses in everybody's barns and other drugs should never be used as a training drug or therapeutic drug at all.
    There are others still that in my mind have no place in the barn except to help save a horse from foundering, tying up, dying or something near that.
    The other thing that is misleading is that some drugs MUST be administered by injection and many ( like clembuterol) are given orally. Mix ups in drugs given by the foreman or groom timeline wise( like, must be off 3 days before running) CAN be screwed up and the trainer has a positive. A trainer that has a large stable or has multiple stables is at more risk for these positives than a guy that has one barn and can oversee it all. However, this is by no means an excuse . Multiple positives and more positives after those, tell me that the trainer is either cheating, has very little if any regard for the rules, or both. Or else, he or she is the unluckiest person on the planet . And while I suppose that can be, I believe that you make most if not all of your luck in this world so maybe someone is that poor slob but ....
    The problem with reporting that unlabeled syringes were found in someones barn tells you just enough to not know what the hell to think. Syringes are never labeled and the key info left out was were they able to hold a needle or a not. These no tip syringes are used often to treat mucus problems as well as thrush in the feet, etc. Many barns have them. Or was it able to have a needle attached? If so, NO EXCUSE it is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN.
    I trained for many years as a lot of you know. I NEVER INJECTED A HORSE EVER in my career. Period! No trainer should. O.K. maybe on a farm in a tough circumstance with no vet around but I was never in that spot . Certainly not near or on race day. There can be no reason. It's game over.
    Drugs were one on a short list of reasons that I left the game. I hated cheaters. Always will. Never did and won over a thousand races the right way, but until people can have a true explanation as to what is really the deal, they are left to draw there own conclusions.
    Robmpink asked me over a year ago to comment on specific trainers and one of them is the main part of this discussion. I promised that I would but I just don't think it is right while all the legalize is flying around. When it plays out, I will make good on my promise and answer Rob in my thread. And whether or not you want to agree with what I tell you , you can bet your bottom dollar that it will be in the same form that I promised all my answers would be in. That is, in the form of the truth. A rarity these days in an otherwise great game .
    Thanks for listening.

  34. #34
    Dark Horse
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    Quote Originally Posted by str View Post
    The problem with reporting that unlabeled syringes were found in someones barn tells you just enough to not know what the hell to think. Syringes are never labeled ...


    "Unlabeled syringes were found!"
    "Err... syringes are never labeled."

    I would love to see an overruling body in horse racing, as in the major sports, that would oversee everything including drug testing.


    On a sidenote, if Lance Armstrong is any indication, drug testing seems to be headed in a direction where hearsay, rather than physical evidence, is enough to convict. I don't know what to think of this (usatoday):

    "I know who won those seven Tours," Armstrong said in the statement. "The toughest event in the world where the strongest man wins. Nobody can ever change that. Especially (USADA CEO) Travis Tygart."
    Vowing to "turn the page," Armstrong said he would "commit myself to the work I began before ever winning a single Tour de France title: serving people and families affected by cancer, especially those in underserved communities."
    USADA said the doping evidence against Armstrong came from the statements of more than a dozen witnesses, including former teammates and associates. While Armstrong's defense was consistent - he had never tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs - USADA said that was irrelevant. Armstrong and his co-conspirators on the U.S. Postal Service team, it said, devised ways to cheat in ways that wouldn't be detected.
    The anti-doping agency found Armstrong used EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone, cortisone and HGH during his career, and that "scientific data" showed he manipulated his blood with EPO or blood transfusions during his comeback to cycling in the 2009 Tour.
    It also said witnesses would testify had alleged that Armstrong "encouraged them to use and administered doping products or methods, including EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone and cortisone during the period from 1999 through 2005."
    In other words, if you suspect somebody and can find an enemy willing to speak out against him, you can convict based on the argument that you didn't find anything because they found ways to hide the evidence. Do you know how scary that is? It's the same type of reasoning behind going to war against Iraq because they had WMD. The same type of reasoning as seen in totalitarian regimes, where a perceived 'enemy of the state' is thrown in jail, without proof, based on the words of a neighbor. I know. I'm stretching this too far, and this is about horse racing. Yet I hate to see this type of reasoning gain ground. Is mankind becoming dumber rather than smarter? Or just darker?
    Last edited by Dark Horse; 08-28-12 at 05:33 PM.

  35. #35
    TonyP
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    Quote Originally Posted by dark horse View Post
    i'm saying you can't win an argument against any extremist, tonyp, and that would include the witch hunters in the otherwise legit anti-drug movement. If willy beamin would have lost the king's bishop, they wouldn't have said a thing, but they triumphantly point at o'neill's suspension, even when that horse finished 7th in some low level race, if my memory serves me right. In addition, the suspension he is currently serving is not based on proof, but on suspicion, which is enough to suspend; again, if my memory serves me right. I sort of put it out of my mind after the sick grandstandish circus surrounding the belmont. Of course, i'm all for solving the drug problem. If that is in the cards, could we start with lasix?

    As far as o'neill, the negative publicity coincided with iha winning the kentucky derby. Front page news. What does that tell you? Currently his stable is doing extremely well at del mar. My impression is that he's a great trainer and the nicest of guys. Do i have any expertise about the countless forbidden drugs and doping control? Of course not. Neither do most of you guys. It doesn't matter if he serves this suspension, in the court of public opinion he is condemned for the rest of his life. It's that part that doesn't fly with me.

    as far as willy beamin running on two days rest. I think it's gutsy and highly unconventional. And i just happen to love that combination. I wish more people had it. That said, if it's ever proven that he ran on forbidden drugs, i'll gladly stand corrected. Until that time, i salute you for your all-knowingness in this matter.

    then dont cheat

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