[Shaudius]

It is impossible to know EXACTLY what rates will spur growth to a point as to offsetthe decreases in rate . It is quite obvious that a 100% taxation rate would result in zero revenue after a very short time, as would a zero taxation rate. The question is what is the best approach when handed a receding economy as Bush was. In fact by March 2001, less than 2 months after Bush took Office, the economy was in full recession, and 911 worsened matters. These were acroos the board cuts; the poor and middle class had better savings than the rich. It's hard to argue they didn't help the economy. In fact, a fully Democratic Congress and Obama continued the Bush cuts and bragged about the jobs created under them.

Ummm so, again where do you see me arguing that they wouldn't spur growth, my argument has always been they didn't spur enough growth to offset their costs. I don't care what people were arguing for in Congress I am telling you, the Bush tax cuts caused increased deficits, this is objective fact. Your response earlier was that they led to increased revenue. full stop. My counter to that is that no, they led to increased deficits. I don't care who supported them in Congress, all I am saying to you is that Bush era tax cuts --> increased deficits.

If your argument is that deficits don't matter as long as there is economic benefit than its hard to argue that Obama's stimulus didn't help the economy and therefore was justified. Afterall clearly injecting that much money into the economy had some effect on economic growth. The counterargument is of course that the stimulus was not worth the tax money(and effectively deficit spending) that resulted. Of course you just got gone telling me that the Bush era tax cuts caused economic growth and were therefore justified on their face.

So which is it, are stimulus measures(and lets not kid ourselves tax cuts are a method of stimulus) justified as long as they spur economic growth or is their some secondary criterion such as deficit project that must be considered. If there is some sort of secondary criterion that must be met, then where do you draw the line between justified stimulus(which a tax cut is one method of) and non justified stimulus.

[BuddyBear]

never even heard of it.

[no gnu taxes]

Ummm so, again where do you see me arguing that they wouldn't spur growth, my argument has always been they didn't spur enough growth to offset their costs. I don't care what people were arguing for in Congress I am telling you, the Bush tax cuts caused increased deficits, this is objective fact. Your response earlier was that they led to increased revenue. full stop. My counter to that is that no, they led to increased deficits. I don't care who supported them in Congress, all I am saying to you is that Bush era tax cuts --> increased deficits.

My argument was that increased revenue occurred in spite of the tax cuts and that tax revenue is mainly a factor of the economy, and not tax rates as they exist, even with the Bush tax cuts. If the Bush tax cuts were so horrible, why didn't the Dems cancel them right after the Bush presidency as they had every opportunity to do so?

It's really easy to look at things in hindsight, and say well, the deficit coulda, woulda been this based on assumed numbers. Bush was focused on stimulating the economy. I don't know if you remember, but one of Bush's first acts was giving tax rebates to low income tax payers to stimulate the economy.

Obama actually did something a bit simular (reduction of FICA rates), but it became lost under the misguided, bullshit healthcare overhaul, which is largely responsible for busineses reluctance to take on new employees.

[Sam Odom]

obama just lost the election

[DwightShrute]

. If the Bush tax cuts were so horrible, why didn't the Dems cancel them right after the Bush presidency as they had every opportunity to do so?

exactly

[Shaudius]

My argument was that increased revenue occurred in spite of the tax cuts and that tax revenue is mainly a factor of the economy, and not tax rates as they exist, even with the Bush tax cuts. If the Bush tax cuts were so horrible, why didn't the Dems cancel them right after the Bush presidency as they had every opportunity to do so?

How can you argue that tax revenue is mainly a function of the economy and not of the rates as they exist. Clearly the amount of taxes collected are a function of both the current economic conditions and the tax rates. How can you state otherwise after just stating that if the rates were 0% no tax revenue would be collected.

As for why the Democrats didn't just cancel them right after the Bush presidency, I don't know, but that doesn't justify them from a budget standpoint. I'm not a partisan hack like many people on this forum, I am simply telling you that the Bush era tax cuts caused increased deficits, which is counter to your point that they caused more growth in tax revenue than they cost.

As a further point, maybe the reason they didn't cancel them is because they were set to expire and the Democrats calculated that they would still control Congress when they expired and therefore didn't need to draw attention to the tax cuts and could just quietly let them expire, its just a thought.

It's really easy to look at things in hindsight, and say well, the deficit coulda, woulda been this based on assumed numbers. Bush was focused on stimulating the economy. I don't know if you remember, but one of Bush's first acts was giving tax rebates to low income tax payers to stimulate the economy.

You're right it is really easy, and its exactly what you did, you claimed that the Bush tax cuts led to increased tax revenue, thereby implying that they led to decreased deficits, my entire point here is that you are wrong, the Bush era tax cuts led to increased deficits when compared to the baseline. So your entire premise is wrong. I'm not making an assessment about whether or not they were good policy, I am telling you that your original premise that they led to increased revenue is wrong on its face.

Obama actually did something a bit simular (reduction of FICA rates), but it became lost under the misguided, bullshit healthcare overhaul, which is largely responsible for busineses reluctance to take on new employees.

How do you figure it was lost under healthcare overhaul, the FICA rate reduction was passed in December 2010. The PPACA was passed in March of 2010. Are people incapable of distinguishing between things passed 9 months apart?

[Turd Ferguson]

non-partisan CBO reports that the Bush era tax cuts actually led to a decrease in tax revenue

Understand how the CBO works. They just simply vomit back up the figures they are given and start from there, mostly by the party in power. They are non-partisan (supposedly) but are not some kind kind of oracle., and I don't know from what vantage point you are reciting.

Funny how the cons love to cite the CBO when it suits them. But when it doesn't...well then it must be a bunch of liberal partisans.

[itchypickle]

exactly

Because the little mentioned fact that they were also a HUGE break for the middle class is the kicker...cherry picked info by the left to make it a 'tax cut for only the rich' argument.

[gauchojake]

Mods move to the drug forum

[jbart28]

This movie is gonna finally bury that liar obama. His socialistic dream is just that a dream. Great to see the silent majority stand up and vote this clown out.

[DwightShrute]

Because the little mentioned fact that they were also a HUGE break for the middle class is the kicker...cherry picked info by the left to make it a 'tax cut for only the rich' argument.

of course

[Shaudius]

This movie is gonna finally bury that liar obama. His socialistic dream is just that a dream. Great to see the silent majority stand up and vote this clown out.

I love how you think a movie presumably full of lies and half-truths about Obama is gonna bury that 'liar obama'.

[DwightShrute]

it sure ain't gonna help

[Shaudius]

it sure ain't gonna help

If ever a movie was guilty of preaching to the choir its this one. This movie will have absolutely zero influence on the election. Hell grossing a little over a million in its wide release opening weekend on Friday means a little over 200k people saw it, how many of those people do you suppose were going to vote for Obama, the truth is zero of them were.

[DwightShrute]

obviously you are much wiser Shaudius

[Shaudius]

obviously you are much wiser Shaudius

Than this movie that is nothing but a right wing propaganda piece, yes, yes I am. I'll put the over/under on the number of times Saul Alinsky, Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, et. al. are mentioned at 50 and it wouldn't surprise me if the movie went way over.

Its a pretty traditional right wing attack of Obama at this point, don't attack what he's done, attack what you THINK he might do if he wins a second term.

I guarantee you that Obama's record as President is mentioned way less than his associations before he became President and the events in his life that apparently shaped his ideology.

[Andy117]

super post buddy. I see you have added your ugly kid to your avatar. Poor kid having you as family. He doesn't stand a chance in life.

Hey, that's ****** up. I know you guys really seem to hate each other but that's taking it to a nasty level.

[DwightShrute]

Hey, that's ****** up. I know you guys really seem to hate each other but that's taking it to a nasty level.

Andy, I have asked to him give to give it a rest numerous times. Every post he makes he calls me names and acts like the idiot he is. I rather it stop but I sure as hell won't let some coward talk like that without standing up for myself. Ball's in his court and he knows it.

[Andy117]

Andy, I have asked to him give to give it a rest numerous times. Every post he makes he calls me names and acts like the idiot he is. I rather it stop but I sure as hell won't let some coward talk like that without standing up for myself. Ball's in his court and he knows it.

Be the bigger guy, lay off his kid.

[DwightShrute]

Be the bigger guy, lay off his kid.

if he wants to call truce nothing would make he happier. I hate the childish name calling. Andy, if everytime you made a post and I called you a moron and a liar would you just take it?

[King Mayan]

Dwight lay off the Dante's family..

You've been warned...

[DwightShrute]

Dwight lay off the Dante's family..

You've been warned...

its up to him

[SteelRain]

these filthy wall street jews stole trillions in 2008 and have started more wars than any other ethnic group

yet republicans blame it all on the black guy

unfuckinreal

[McBa1n]

In what country?
Uzfyourselfusbekibekistanstanstan? (ty, Herman Cain, for the comedy on that one)
Said movie must be on the level of 'Undefeated', a 0%'r on any review site worth it's salt (you know, that one about that Governor that quit and became a reality side-show exploiting the most ignorant this nation has to offer - you'd be shocked how much money complete fools have, but that's capitalism!!). Incidentally - the Republican Party lost it's shite over how she was the best pick, even though . SMART people run the Republicans and vote that way, but I digress... I suppose a stewardess>black guy, in the Republican world.

I just don't get how non-millionaires - and granted, this site has TONS of the 'elite' money wise, I mean millionaires+, continue to vote Republican. Granted, I know MOST of you are f'n loaded more than your next generation could possibly need with your MEGA MONEY and are just screwing around putting 20 bux on the 'big game' tomorrow. That's cool. What's not cool, is while Dems are f'n horrible, at least they don't TOTALLY want to suck off the 1%.

Do your homework, please. It starts with Nixon in Chile. Tell me how that went(for all the SBR Millionaire++++ economists, only, please - if you want to get recent, STUDY Iraq). It's ok - I like being told how to think, also, I used to have that kind of woman in my life. Politics? It's meant to do the work on your own and figure it out. I figure politically, these forums are akin to JJ's normal picks. JJ's BIG MONEY picks? He wouldn't vote Republican, ever, even if he hates Blacky McBlackenstein (making a joke), our PRESIDENT. Respect it and read more and stop being a n00b, thx. He stinks - but he ain't gonna kill ya, unless, of course, you're a token SBR MILLIONAIRE BRAINIAC that can parse fast/details and also carry an argument... This site is LOADED with them. Sorry for the snark, but you can go f some deuce, deuce and a half bearded woman in your trailer and also brush your 3 toofs. That's the Republican base - morons being told by the wealthiest this world has EVER SEEN what to do (again - read stats and google more). The big money telling the 'derp' what to do.
GG, sirs, gg.

[McBa1n]

[Balco10]

go see this movie and judge for your self.

[Balco10]

these filthy wall street jews stole trillions in 2008 and have started more wars than any other ethnic group

yet republicans blame it all on the black guy

unfuckinreal

Stand by...

[Balco10]

Is this the Anderson Copper of SBR?

[Balco10]

JUstin 7 is a nerd and a geek...oh and liberal...

[Hotdiggity11]

This movie has never been number 1 on any given day. Fahrenheit 9/11 in 2004, on the other hand, was. I love how conservatives are hyping up a movie using false data though.

[andywend]

Say what? Obama was President in 2007? Why would they pick 2007 as the jumping off point for where Americans have lost their wealth in a critique of Obama. I guess Obama's first term went from 2007-2012.

The democrats took back control of congress in the 2006 mid-term election and that is the EXACT point in time things started falling apart.

Taxes decrease growth if the taxes decrease spending. This happens with the lower and middle class, but no really to the upper class. Government spending increases growth (as long as the taxes to support that spending are not crippling). With the big tax cuts on the rich (and the restructuring of capital gains taxes), the government cannot continue spending at the rate it is.

Wait, didn't GOP-controlled house oppose tax cuts for those earning under 250k? Yes.

With the tax code as is, the upper class pay less in total taxes as a percentage of their income than the middle class. Don't just consider income tax... SSI, medicare, and all those other taxes are capped. This means they whack the middle and lower class much more (percentage wise) than the upper class.

The tax system is broken. Romney will make it worse.

This is quite comical since its coming from someone who claims to make 7 figures betting online and probably doesn't report a nickel of it.

Definitely the pot calling the kettle black.

[andywend]

Andy, I have asked to him give to give it a rest numerous times. Every post he makes he calls me names and acts like the idiot he is. I rather it stop but I sure as hell won't let some coward talk like that without standing up for myself. Ball's in his court and he knows it.

Dwight, I have never seen you personally attack Dante and yet he lashes out at you time and time again.

Not surprisingly, its the liberal democrat acting like a jackass which makes sense.

Saw Obama 2016 on Friday @ midnight and since most conservatives work for a living, I figured the movie wouldn't be too crowded. If it was a movie kissing Obama's ass, the movie would have been packed with lazy, unemployed liberal democrats given passes by some left-wing Moveon.org type of group.

[rkelly110]

So how many were watching the movie with you? 2? You and the projectionist?

[Shaudius]

The democrats took back control of congress in the 2006 mid-term election and that is the EXACT point in time things started falling apart.

I truly believe that you actually believe this and its one of the telltale reasons why nothing you say can be taken seriously.

Tell us again how you want to round up all liberals and use California as a concentration camp for them.

[DwightShrute]

...