1. 04-12-12 06:22 AM #71
    shari91
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettels View Post
    Tatts have been online for a while now! UniTAB merged with tatts in 2006. $3.29 million in revenue for 2009!
    The figure you're quoting was actually $3.29 billion as it includes all lottery activity.

    If you want the actual figure - look here. You'll see that Tatts only took in a profit of 123.6 million in 2011 for its racing and sports betting activities. Not that impressive when they have an online presence as well as "over 1200 retail and on-course outlets" according to them.

    As you'll see from their balance sheet their revenue from that division was actually 593.5 million in 2011 (down a million from the year before despite bragging about their expanded fixed price service). $300 million was paid out in racing industry fees and government taxes. A figure that will now only increase. I guess not only does it suck to be an Aussie horse racing bettor now but a Tatts shareholder too.
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  2. 04-12-12 06:26 AM #72
    freeVICK
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    shari!!! join my poker table right now!
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  3. 04-12-12 06:27 AM #73
    shari91
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeVICK View Post
    shari!!! join my poker table right now!
    haha can't... working. GL though!
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  4. 04-12-12 06:27 AM #74
    brettels
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    Yeah I meant billion, fixed that up!

    I'm going to make a table over the next few days, comparing about 20 books with revenue details. If i can get the info for non TAB's !

    TABcorp should be triple what tatts revenue is at least, i would imagine.
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  5. 04-12-12 06:46 AM #75
    brettels
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    Information like this just can't be right??

    http://www.companyrevenue.org/company/Pinnacle+Sports
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  6. 04-12-12 06:47 AM #76
    shari91
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettels View Post
    Yeah I meant billion, fixed that up!

    I'm going to make a table over the next few days, comparing about 20 books with revenue details. If i can get the info for non TAB's !

    TABcorp should be triple what tatts revenue is at least, i would imagine.
    TABcorp Earnings Before Interest and Tax for the year ending June 2011 - solely for wagering: $220.2 million. 3400 terminals in 2 states. After tax earnings: They don't disclose solely for that division but the tax rate they displayed is 30% so I guess we can use that as an estimate. They also show that they pay an utter crapload to VIC and NSW in licensing fees, etc for racing. Unreal how much money is changing hands.
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  7. 04-12-12 06:51 AM #77
    shari91
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettels View Post
    Information like this just can't be right??

    http://www.companyrevenue.org/company/Pinnacle+Sports
    No, that's just some website taking a punt. Unless a site is required to file financial docs by law, it's basically impossible to find out their revenue. Most private companies don't like disclosing that info for good reason
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  8. 04-12-12 08:22 AM #78
    wantitall4moi
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    Quote Originally Posted by shari91 View Post
    The figure you're quoting was actually $3.29 billion as it includes all lottery activity.

    If you want the actual figure - look here. You'll see that Tatts only took in a profit of 123.6 million in 2011 for its racing and sports betting activities. Not that impressive when they have an online presence as well as "over 1200 retail and on-course outlets" according to them.

    As you'll see from their balance sheet their revenue from that division was actually 593.5 million in 2011 (down a million from the year before despite bragging about their expanded fixed price service). $300 million was paid out in racing industry fees and government taxes. A figure that will now only increase. I guess not only does it suck to be an Aussie horse racing bettor now but a Tatts shareholder too.
    yeah because a 21% hold isnt enough....man.


    Or you are under the same assumption as every other idiot that thinks when people call it a ' multi-billion dollar industry" it all equates to billions in profits.

    When youre BOOKMAKING you have an expected hold, Anything around 7 or 8% for sportsbetting is very good. 6-6.5% is going to be around average. Obviously those figures have parimutuel holds mixed in but theyre obviously above 21% (because that is what both the parimutuel and sportsbetting profits are) which is more than some tracks take out here in the US in most pools. So I would say theyre doing better than OK.

    Why do you think I have been saying that states and governments that think sportsbetting (solely) isnt going to be the windfall they think it will be. Even if "billions" magically start getting wagered on it.

    But if you dont think 124 million profit on a 594 million handle is good then I dont know what to say.
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  9. 04-12-12 10:31 AM #79
    brettels
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    wantitall4moi very well said!
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  10. 04-12-12 01:30 PM #80
    shari91
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    Quote Originally Posted by wantitall4moi View Post
    yeah because a 21% hold isnt enough....man.


    Or you are under the same assumption as every other idiot that thinks when people call it a ' multi-billion dollar industry" it all equates to billions in profits.

    When youre BOOKMAKING you have an expected hold, Anything around 7 or 8% for sportsbetting is very good. 6-6.5% is going to be around average. Obviously those figures have parimutuel holds mixed in but theyre obviously above 21% (because that is what both the parimutuel and sportsbetting profits are) which is more than some tracks take out here in the US in most pools. So I would say theyre doing better than OK.

    Why do you think I have been saying that states and governments that think sportsbetting (solely) isnt going to be the windfall they think it will be. Even if "billions" magically start getting wagered on it.

    But if you dont think 124 million profit on a 594 million handle is good then I dont know what to say.
    Do you read threads before pounding the keyboard or do you just randomly type stuff? Did I say it wasn't a lucrative business for them? I suggest you follow the thread a bit more closely. brettels was suggesting that Tatts and TABCorp were the giants in wagering in Australia. He also assumed that TABCorp "should be triple what tatts revenue is at least". My point was to show that this is indeed incorrect. You have also conveniently overlooked the fact that the 124 million figure is NOT PROFIT. It's EBIT. Want to know what the tax rate here is? Meh, I've already mentioned it in this thread.

    In 2011 $25 billion was wagered in the horse and sports betting industry here. These two organisations didn't even account for 4% of that. Not sure how yet again you could be so horribly mistaken with what you've tried to interject in a conversation but having a basic understanding of a nation's policies and betting culture is probably a good first step.
    Last edited by shari91; 04-12-12 at 01:35 PM.
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  11. 04-12-12 02:27 PM #81
    shari91
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    Hareeba and brettels: http://www.thoroughbrednews.com.au/a....aspx?id=59156

    Interesting how he says that he thinks the gross revenue model is still ideal and that they're only trialling the turnover based model for one year. Also this kind of made me laugh... it's like, no s*** Sherlock... why do you think people are saying this is going to end up badly for the racing industry and its employees?

    "The young people, particularly the ones that use technology, are likely to move towards sports betting. The corporate bookmakers will promote sports betting as that is where their margins are better. We are just hoping that those punters are prepared to pay a higher price or will bet with the tote. I do not know whether that is proven or not, but I suspect horse racing is likely to lose market share if everyone is on a turnover model,” he said.
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  12. 04-12-12 03:17 PM #82
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by shari91 View Post
    Hareeba and brettels: http://www.thoroughbrednews.com.au/a....aspx?id=59156

    Interesting how he says that he thinks the gross revenue model is still ideal and that they're only trialling the turnover based model for one year. Also this kind of made me laugh... it's like, no s*** Sherlock... why do you think people are saying this is going to end up badly for the racing industry and its employees?

    [/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    Betfair will be gone before that year is up.
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  13. 04-12-12 03:21 PM #83
    Hareeba!
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    And, as I predicted from the start, things are just going to go on getting worse:

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/nr...-1226323271094

    And don't go thinking this disease is going to be restricted to Australia. V'landy's you deserve to rot in hell.
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  14. 04-12-12 03:48 PM #84
    jjgold
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    Just pick winners
    Betting will always be available for Aussie Tracks
    Lets let the politicians/racing execs sort this out

    Hareeba take my lead here
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  15. 04-12-12 04:03 PM #85
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjgold View Post
    Just pick winners
    Betting will always be available for Aussie Tracks
    Lets let the politicians/racing execs sort this out

    Hareeba take my lead here
    Of course betting will always be available. But not like we've come to know it since the exchange revolution.

    Betfair is the only place you can lay horses in every race and the only place where you can bet in running.

    And they are the prime reason punters have been able to get so much better value from bookmakers (and even the TAB) over the past decade.

    The politicians don't even understand betting. They don't know how an exchange operates and why the turnover model doesn't fit. They are the ones responsible for the absurd ban on live betting on sports online. They think we are all as dumb as the pokie players.
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  16. 04-12-12 04:08 PM #86
    jjgold
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    Hareeb master the UK Racing Markets

    Approx 8-10x more liquidity per race vs aussie tracks
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  17. 04-12-12 04:15 PM #87
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjgold View Post
    Hareeb master the UK Racing Markets

    Approx 8-10x more liquidity per race vs aussie tracks
    Yes I know that. I do place a few bets early in the day on UK races but there are only 24 hours in a day and I do need to sleep.
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  18. 04-12-12 06:45 PM #88
    wantitall4moi
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    Quote Originally Posted by shari91 View Post
    Do you read threads before pounding the keyboard or do you just randomly type stuff? Did I say it wasn't a lucrative business for them? I suggest you follow the thread a bit more closely. brettels was suggesting that Tatts and TABCorp were the giants in wagering in Australia. He also assumed that TABCorp "should be triple what tatts revenue is at least". My point was to show that this is indeed incorrect. You have also conveniently overlooked the fact that the 124 million figure is NOT PROFIT. It's EBIT. Want to know what the tax rate here is? Meh, I've already mentioned it in this thread.

    In 2011 $25 billion was wagered in the horse and sports betting industry here. These two organisations didn't even account for 4% of that. Not sure how yet again you could be so horribly mistaken with what you've tried to interject in a conversation but having a basic understanding of a nation's policies and betting culture is probably a good first step.
    LOL what? You said this.... "I guess not only does it suck to be an Aussie horse racing bettor now but a Tatts shareholder too." How is that supposed to be interpreted?

    Or this one.... "You'll see that Tatts only took in a profit of 123.6 million in 2011 for its racing and sports betting activities. Not that impressive when they have an online presence as well as "over 1200 retail and on-course outlets" according to them."


    Two statements that appeared that you didnt think they were doing well at all.

    Unless youre gong to throw out the "I was misquoted' card, then by all means feel free.

    As far as EBIT and profit semantics, those are numbers based after expenditures.

    Their dividends have been through the roof for the past 5 or 6 years from what I remember when I looked at it this morning.

    So if 25 billion was wagered overall then what was the total profits? If it is over 1.5 billion I would be very surprised. So even with some outrageous tax rate on that what does the government end up getting? Even if it is 30% thats 'only' 450 million in tax revenue. Obviously those are guesses, but I would think theyre going to be fairly close. Also Australia is quite a bit different than the US. As states here get the money not the federal government. Although I am sure some states in Australia get the lions share. So how is all that divided up? 450 million doesnt pay the interest on the debt we have for a month. So people thinking the government is going to allow sports betting to be legal because it is a money maker are mistaken.

    Either way betfair is just bad for everyone. I have said that from the beginning, its good that people finally started charging them enough to cut into their massive slice of the pie.
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  19. 04-12-12 07:09 PM #89
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by wantitall4moi View Post
    Either way betfair is just bad for everyone. I have said that from the beginning, its good that people finally started charging them enough to cut into their massive slice of the pie.
    How is Betfair bad for everyone?
    Who is going to benefit if they depart Australia?
    Are you aware that Betfair Australia has yet to post a profit after about a decade?
    Are you not aware that racing punters have benefited significantly through not just Betfair but the competition they have created amongst all bookmakers in Australia?
    And that racing has benefited from the revenues generated from increased turnover as well as Betfair's promotion of the sport?
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  20. 04-12-12 07:27 PM #90
    jjgold
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    Wanty is out of his league as far as Euro Books

    Hareeba kid not dumb though

    If Betfair Australia has not profited in 10 years why is it offered Hareeba
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  21. 04-12-12 07:33 PM #91
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjgold View Post

    If Betfair Australia has not profited in 10 years why is it offered Hareeba
    They've taken a long term view and strategy towards investing in building the business here. I think they've been hanging out particularly for the abandonment of the stupid restriction on in-play wagering which would greatly boost their revenue. And it has probably taken longer than they expected to get punters around from the vested interest campaign of impending doom, gloom and rampant corruption which preceded their eventual obtaining of a licence in Tasmania. Also don't forget the dumb WA government banned them at one stage until the High Court put an end to that nonsense. They would have paid a lot more money on lawyers than they ever would have envisaged.
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  22. 04-12-12 07:35 PM #92
    brettels
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    Quote Originally Posted by shari91 View Post
    Hareeba and brettels: http://www.thoroughbrednews.com.au/a....aspx?id=59156

    [/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    As someone who doesn't bet on the horses 364 days of the year (melbourne cup only) I have no opinion on it because it doesn't bother me if racing is wiped off the earth for betting purposes.
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  23. 04-12-12 07:42 PM #93
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettels View Post
    As someone who doesn't bet on the horses 364 days of the year (melbourne cup only) I have no opinion on it because it doesn't bother me if racing is wiped off the earth for betting purposes.
    i.e. Stuff the rest of you who love the sport and the thousands of good people who make their livelihood in this fabulous industry.
    Last edited by Hareeba!; 04-12-12 at 07:51 PM.
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  24. 04-12-12 08:03 PM #94
    jjgold
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    Good stuff Hareeba

    You school everyone here as far as Euro/Aussie Books
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  25. 04-12-12 08:13 PM #95
    brettels
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    How JJ? All he says is "this message has been hidden because hareeba! Is on your ignore list.

    Schools his own biased opinions
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  26. 04-12-12 09:17 PM #96
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettels View Post
    How JJ? All he says is "this message has been hidden because hareeba! Is on your ignore list.

    Schools his own biased opinions
    If honest opinions based purely upon lengthy experience equate to bias, then I plead guilty but I am always willing to engage in civil debate on them.
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  27. 04-12-12 09:35 PM #97
    jjgold
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    Blocking posters is never a good thing
    What it means is a poster got to you
    I never once blocked a poster
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  28. 04-12-12 09:37 PM #98
    brettels
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    No, this was requested by shari. hareeba was whining like a little bitch in some PM's , worth avoiding.
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  29. 04-12-12 09:40 PM #99
    Hareeba!
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    It's only a very minor race I know, the first at Canberra today - tote win pools were:
    NSW $17,254
    VIC $16,888
    QLD $8,149

    Matched at Betfair $64,387

    by the way JJ, all those turnover numbers I quoted to you for last Saturday were for the win pools only.
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  30. 04-12-12 09:51 PM #100
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettels View Post
    No, this was requested by shari. hareeba was whining like a little bitch in some PM's , worth avoiding.
    Just to put the record straight:
    Shari, quite understandably got fed up with our continual bickering in threads.
    Brettels continued to falsely accuse me of lying and just refused to let up.
    I told he and Shari that I would not tolerate that behaviour and if necessary would accept being banned rather than allow it to continue unchallenged.
    Brettels chose to take up Shari's suggestion to ignore my posts.
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  31. 04-12-12 10:01 PM #101
    jjgold
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettels View Post
    No, this was requested by shari. hareeba was whining like a little bitch in some PM's , worth avoiding.
    Brettles I would not listen to anyone..you do what you want
    Blocking posters is never a good thing
    Shari cannot take the pressure sometimes here so of course she is going to tell you to block someone

    Fight fight fight

    Hareeba good numbers there but I think average all of course the TAB's pound them

    TAB's have plenty of 500,000 ++ win pool totals in Melbourne

    New Zealand also very very underrated volume and plenty of 500,000K win pool races
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  32. 04-12-12 10:09 PM #102
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjgold View Post
    Hareeba good numbers there but I think average all of course the TAB's pound them

    TAB's have plenty of 500,000 ++ win pool totals in Melbourne

    New Zealand also very very underrated volume and plenty of 500,000K win pool races
    I don't doubt that the TABs overall would exceed Betfair's turnover. However, my point is that it is absurd to think that the loss of Betfair won't affect total turnover and Racing NSW's revenue projections.

    As for NZ, I trust you are aware that the NZ and Victorian TAB pools are co-mingled?
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  33. 04-12-12 10:14 PM #103
    jjgold
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    Not bad for Canberra

    Win pool: $40,816
    Place pool: $15,947
    Quinella pool: $6,919
    Trifecta pool: $2,368
    First4 pool: $4,269
    Treble pool: $656
    Double: Will Pay

    Betfair Approx 95,000 USD
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  34. 04-28-12 06:36 PM #104
    laconic
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    So Betfair increase commission from 5% to 6.5% for all AUS & NZ harness, greyhound & thoroughbred racing on May 1st.
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  35. 04-28-12 06:39 PM #105
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by laconic View Post
    So Betfair increase commission from 5% to 6.5% for all AUS & NZ harness, greyhound & thoroughbred racing on May 1st.
    Yes.
    6.5% is the basic market rate but can be as low as 2.6% with maximum discount.

    And my use of Betfair for Oz racing will be very significantly diminished if not zeroed as from Tuesday.
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