1. #1
    jonal
    jonal's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 06-01-09
    Posts: 771
    Betpoints: 2152

    DOJ identifying sports betting as a bona fide game of skill

    a recently released response to a response...


    First, defendants claim that in each of the listed games, the bettor has “no role in, or control over, the outcome” and that the game is instead subject only to chance. That is not true with respect to bookmaking, at the very least. Betting on the outcome of sporting events involves “substantial (not ‘slight’) skill,” including “the exercise of [a] bettor’s judgment in trying to . . . figure [out] the point spreads.” Office of the Attorney General of the State of New York, Formal Opinion No. 84-F1, N.Y. Op. Atty. Gen 11 (1984). Sports bettors have every opportunity to employ superior knowledge of the games, teams and the players involved in order to exploit odds that do not reflect the true likelihoods of the possible outcomes. Indeed, academics who have argued that poker should not be treated as a form of illegal gambling on the grounds that it is a “game of skill” make the same argument with respect to sports betting.11
    http://pokerati.com/2011/11/10/doj-r...-response-lol/

  2. #2
    NYSportsGuy210
    NYSportsGuy210's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 11-07-09
    Posts: 11,359
    Betpoints: 130

    Yea but Poker isn't a game of skill....it's a game of chance even more than sports betting is. Sports betting requires more knowledge of sports and the teams involved than does poker and it's knowledge. Sucking out in poker happens a ton more than it does in sports betting.

  3. #3
    Ninersnut
    Money talks and bullshit runs marathons
    Ninersnut's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 05-20-10
    Posts: 3,730

    this is going to be the new defense for gambling. Thats how they get away with all these Fantasy sites.

  4. #4
    The High Flier
    The High Flier's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 11-09-11
    Posts: 75

    If you think poker isn't a game of skill, you probably just suck at poker. There is a reason the same people make the final tables and win tournaments in the high money tour and it is not because they in a pact with god with Tebow.

    Gambling, not lottery tickets, is skill at the top and a bunch of people throwing money around at the bottom that the people on top and the system get to take advantage of.

  5. #5
    NYSportsGuy210
    NYSportsGuy210's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 11-07-09
    Posts: 11,359
    Betpoints: 130

    Quote Originally Posted by The High Flier View Post
    If you think poker isn't a game of skill, you probably just suck at poker. There is a reason the same people make the final tables and win tournaments in the high money tour and it is not because they in a pact with god with Tebow.

    Gambling, not lottery tickets, is skill at the top and a bunch of people throwing money around at the bottom that the people on top and the system get to take advantage of.

    You're a fcuking idiot. And I guarantee you I am one of the top poker players in the world.....I can bust any player any time....any day. Sports betting...especially the right amounts in the right sports is more lucrative than poker.

    Mainly because there is way much more chance for arbitrage and opportunity to cash in on opportunities in sports betting than there is in poker on a daily basis. I have done both for ove rthe last 3.5-4 years believe me....

    Even if you do everything by the book and read your opponent to a tee you will still lose more in poker in the long run than in sports betting. However both do require patience and extreme amounts of discretion to be successful....a little more for poker than in sports betting though.

  6. #6
    FourLengthsClear
    King of the Idiots
    FourLengthsClear's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 12-29-10
    Posts: 3,809
    Betpoints: 494

    Quote Originally Posted by NYSportsGuy210 View Post
    You're a fcuking idiot. And I guarantee you I am one of the top poker players in the world.....I can bust any player any time....any day. Sports betting...especially the right amounts in the right sports is more lucrative than poker.

    Mainly because there is way much more chance for arbitrage and opportunity to cash in on opportunities in sports betting than there is in poker on a daily basis. I have done both for ove rthe last 3.5-4 years believe me....

    Even if you do everything by the book and read your opponent to a tee you will still lose more in poker in the long run than in sports betting. However both do require patience and extreme amounts of discretion to be successful....a little more for poker than in sports betting though.
    LOL.

  7. #7
    NYSportsGuy210
    NYSportsGuy210's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 11-07-09
    Posts: 11,359
    Betpoints: 130

    In sports betting you place wagers based on information.....in poker it's based on disinformation, misinformation and deceit.

    I'll taking sports wagering as a skill more than poker (more of a coin flip) anytime.

  8. #8
    UntilTheNDofTimE
    I thought i told you that we dont stop
    UntilTheNDofTimE's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 05-29-08
    Posts: 9,283
    Betpoints: 12

    Quote Originally Posted by NYSportsGuy210 View Post
    Yea but Poker isn't a game of skill....it's a game of chance even more than sports betting is. Sports betting requires more knowledge of sports and the teams involved than does poker and it's knowledge. Sucking out in poker happens a ton more than it does in sports betting.
    Usually i agree with what you say but this is the most idiotic post youve ever made. Poker requires much more skill than most aspects of gambling but ill agree with you that sportsbetting takes much more skill. Im a prop player on weekends and ive played poker recreationally atleast for 15 years. There is this little thing called variance and theoretical hold in poker. If you read your opponent like a book and make a certain play as you say that you will win 73% of the time thats exactly what it is. Those suck outs happen in the 27% window. As a player i pride myself on never getting mad or flustered on suckouts. Ive got 1 outered on the river for a 6k pot before. I had no anger. Why? Because i win that hand 97% of the time and theoretically ill have that same position on a player 29 more times. If you put yourself in profitable situations and your not buying in With your whole bankroll youl be fine. Professional sports bettors operate on a 2% edge and i dont see them saying its all luck and chance. You can win vs anyone anytime anywhere but put yourself in the same situation 1000 times and see how that works out for yourself.*

  9. #9
    FourLengthsClear
    King of the Idiots
    FourLengthsClear's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 12-29-10
    Posts: 3,809
    Betpoints: 494

    Quote Originally Posted by NYSportsGuy210 View Post
    In sports betting you place wagers based on information.....in poker it's based on disinformation, misinformation and deceit.

    I'll taking sports wagering as a skill more than poker (more of a coin flip) anytime.
    I wouldn't disagree but that does not square with poker being a game of chance. Of course there are suckouts but as with anything put yourself in a +EV situation 1000 or 10,000 times and you will come out ahead.

    If I offer you +101 on a coinflip, the outcome of the flip is random but it is a mathematical certainty that after a sufficient number of flips you will beat me.

  10. #10
    ttwarrior1
    ttwarrior1's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 06-23-09
    Posts: 28,227
    Betpoints: 3587

    q t calling my all in of ace king suited and getting quad queens isn't skill, its luck. but yes it requires skill and luck, but sports gambling is skill. We aren't the ones playing the game
    175 pts

    3-QUESTION
    SBR TRIVIA WINNER 12/08/2022

    175 pts

    3-QUESTION
    SBR TRIVIA WINNER 12/05/2022

    175 pts

    3-QUESTION
    SBR TRIVIA WINNER 12/01/2022


  11. #11
    NYSportsGuy210
    NYSportsGuy210's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 11-07-09
    Posts: 11,359
    Betpoints: 130

    Quote Originally Posted by UntilTheNDofTimE View Post
    Usually i agree with what you say but this is the most idiotic post youve ever made. Poker requires much more skill than most aspects of gambling but ill agree with you that sportsbetting takes much more skill. Im a prop player on weekends and ive played poker recreationally atleast for 15 years. There is this little thing called variance and theoretical hold in poker. If you read your opponent like a book and make a certain play as you say that you will win 73% of the time thats exactly what it is. Those suck outs happen in the 27% window. As a player i pride myself on never getting mad or flustered on suckouts. Ive got 1 outered on the river for a 6k pot before. I had no anger. Why? Because i win that hand 97% of the time and theoretically ill have that same position on a player 29 more times. If you put yourself in profitable situations and your not buying in With your whole bankroll youl be fine. Professional sports bettors operate on a 2% edge and i dont see them saying its all luck and chance. You can win vs anyone anytime anywhere but put yourself in the same situation 1000 times and see how that works out for yourself.*
    There is so much wrong with this post it's scary. Percentage and variance go out the window when it comes to poker. No matter what the numbers says it all comes down to how the deck was shuffled and what cards are left to be drawn from the deck.

    ie- There's percentages saying that if you have AA pre flop and you are raised or raise all in against KK or QQ you should win a majority % of the time. However how do you know this as a player if say the cards were shuffled and dealt out so the other two Aces are not in the deck anymore and your opponents two Q's or K's are still in the deck?

    You DON'T KNOW.....now all of a sudden your Aces aren't that great to go all-in with as you and the "book" tell you it is. And surprise....your underdog opponent hits a set either on the turn, flop or river. BAM...good bye.

    In sports betting your rarely put in a situation like this where you don't know or account for all the variable factors going into a bet before you place it or not.

    Also, unlike in sports betting, in poker you are forced to be put in a situation where you have to go all-in and bet a majority % or all of your bank roll in one shot like you are in NL poker most of the time. It's way more easier to money manage a bank roll in sports betting than it is in poker and easier to control what your plays should be than it is in a game where your opponent can dictate what how much you win or lose even before the game starts.

  12. #12
    UntilTheNDofTimE
    I thought i told you that we dont stop
    UntilTheNDofTimE's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 05-29-08
    Posts: 9,283
    Betpoints: 12

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwarrior1 View Post
    q t calling my all in of ace king suited and getting quad queens isn't skill, its luck. but yes it requires skill and luck, but sports gambling is skill. We aren't the ones playing the game
    *Play that hand 1000 times. Your not suppose to win 100% of your hands.*

    But honestly you shouldnt even allow Q10 to call your hand. If you do in fact get called you win the hand 54% of the time so as stated earlier your theoretical hold on the hand is 4%*

  13. #13
    NYSportsGuy210
    NYSportsGuy210's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 11-07-09
    Posts: 11,359
    Betpoints: 130

    Quote Originally Posted by FourLengthsClear View Post
    I wouldn't disagree but that does not square with poker being a game of chance. Of course there are suckouts but as with anything put yourself in a +EV situation 1000 or 10,000 times and you will come out ahead.

    If I offer you +101 on a coinflip, the outcome of the flip is random but it is a mathematical certainty that after a sufficient number of flips you will beat me.

    This is a foolish example. Yea maybe after 100 bets...but maybe after a 1,000, 10,000 or a million bets you may start to see slight advantage for one side as opposed to the other.

    But realistically how many players are even gonna have a bank roll after after 1,000, 10,000 or 1 million all-in bets? They would have gone long broke before they see any advantage to winning by your logic.

  14. #14
    ouman101
    ouman101's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 12-02-09
    Posts: 2,815
    Betpoints: 672

    I don't have time to read all of your poor excuses, but "you're a fuking idiot" if you believe poker is a game of chance.

  15. #15
    NYSportsGuy210
    NYSportsGuy210's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 11-07-09
    Posts: 11,359
    Betpoints: 130

    Quote Originally Posted by UntilTheNDofTimE View Post
    *Play that hand 1000 times. Your not suppose to win 100% of your hands.*

    But honestly you shouldnt even allow Q10 to call your hand. If you do in fact get called you win the hand 54% of the time so as stated earlier your theoretical hold on the hand is 4%*

    Again this means nothing if you're opponent happens to force you to go all-in for a sh*t load of cash in one of the instances where you lose. Now you are broke. Sure....you could win later on based on percentages.....but your BROKE NOW.

    In sports betting if you bet on a team that has the same % odds to win as that hand you just described in poker....you can at least control how much money you place to win or lose based on the odds known. You're not forced to splurge your WHOLE BANK ROLL on a mediocre solid hand at best just because you think your team can beat the opponent by that spread 54% of the time.
    Nomination(s):
    This post was nominated 2 times . To view the nominated thread please click here. People who nominated: ttwarrior1, and Glitch

  16. #16
    ttwarrior1
    ttwarrior1's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 06-23-09
    Posts: 28,227
    Betpoints: 3587

    54, lol

    Kids posting again that think they are pros. No pros play on sbr poker
    175 pts

    3-QUESTION
    SBR TRIVIA WINNER 12/08/2022

    175 pts

    3-QUESTION
    SBR TRIVIA WINNER 12/05/2022

    175 pts

    3-QUESTION
    SBR TRIVIA WINNER 12/01/2022


  17. #17
    NYSportsGuy210
    NYSportsGuy210's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 11-07-09
    Posts: 11,359
    Betpoints: 130

    Quote Originally Posted by ouman101 View Post
    I don't have time to read all of your poor excuses, but "you're a fuking idiot" if you believe poker is a game of chance.

    And clearly....you don't get poker sir.

  18. #18
    jjgold
    Update your status
    jjgold's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 07-20-05
    Posts: 393,129
    Betpoints: 476

    All this stuff mans nothing
    Gambling is not going to be legal in usa
    maybe poker but a dead game now

  19. #19
    MC PICKS
    Update your status
    MC PICKS's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 01-10-10
    Posts: 6,644
    Betpoints: 265

    Poker is a game of skill, if anyone would know it would be me.

  20. #20
    ouman101
    ouman101's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 12-02-09
    Posts: 2,815
    Betpoints: 672

    Quote Originally Posted by NYSportsGuy210 View Post
    And clearly....you don't get poker sir.
    Nope! I'm still trying to figure out how the same people get "lucky" everytime. They must just have good luck.

    Really I don't know why I'm disagreeing with one of the "top players in the world"

  21. #21
    Walter Abrams
    Walter Abrams's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 11-07-11
    Posts: 265

    Quote Originally Posted by NYSportsGuy210 View Post
    You're a fcuking idiot. And I guarantee you I am one of the top poker players in the world.....I can bust any player any time....any day. Sports betting...especially the right amounts in the right sports is more lucrative than poker.

    Mainly because there is way much more chance for arbitrage and opportunity to cash in on opportunities in sports betting than there is in poker on a daily basis. I have done both for ove rthe last 3.5-4 years believe me....

    Even if you do everything by the book and read your opponent to a tee you will still lose more in poker in the long run than in sports betting. However both do require patience and extreme amounts of discretion to be successful....a little more for poker than in sports betting though.
    Ok Phil Ivey. Why arent you spending your millions with models all around you on a remote island right now? Instead you're on this site calling people idiots. Im sure the only poker bets you're making are with these points the site gives out.

  22. #22
    UntilTheNDofTimE
    I thought i told you that we dont stop
    UntilTheNDofTimE's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 05-29-08
    Posts: 9,283
    Betpoints: 12

    Ny,

    In reply to your last post.

    What idiot buys in their entire bankroll? Percentages are over a lifetime not 1 session. I play 2/5 and 5/10 nl and ill never take with me more than 2% of my poker bankroll. Ive sustained 50-75 all in bad beats and its never made me broke.

  23. #23
    UntilTheNDofTimE
    I thought i told you that we dont stop
    UntilTheNDofTimE's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 05-29-08
    Posts: 9,283
    Betpoints: 12

    I never stated i was a pro nor do i claim to be but as far as cash game players go the same People are always winning. Of course theres variance and bad beats but thats part of the game. Im not a super succesful player but ive been playing for 4 years( 14 recreationally) for cash( im 22) and over the past 2 years ive never had a losing month until recently. Ive started to play more 5/10 no limit and on the weekly im playing against some of the best. Jc tran and eric tan to name a couple you might no.

  24. #24
    ttwarrior1
    ttwarrior1's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 06-23-09
    Posts: 28,227
    Betpoints: 3587

    moneymaker vs me when he qualified for wsop .

    3/4 through the wsop qualifier, i have aces , he has 5's, He raises, another raises, i go all in, he calls with 5's and get's a 5 on the river and becomes chip leader and ends up going to wsop main event and wins. If not for that hand, nobody would know who moneymaker was.That was luck , not skill. Poker will never be called a game of skill. If it has even 1 percent of lucky then it can't be called a game of skill through the legal system. Who cares if its luck and skill. its both and not a sport.

    Poker becomes legalized when washington can get their share of the money. going to court to try to say its a game of skill so therefore is should be legalized is the wrong thing to do
    175 pts

    3-QUESTION
    SBR TRIVIA WINNER 12/08/2022

    175 pts

    3-QUESTION
    SBR TRIVIA WINNER 12/05/2022

    175 pts

    3-QUESTION
    SBR TRIVIA WINNER 12/01/2022


  25. #25
    FourLengthsClear
    King of the Idiots
    FourLengthsClear's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 12-29-10
    Posts: 3,809
    Betpoints: 494

    Quote Originally Posted by NYSportsGuy210 View Post
    This is a foolish example. Yea maybe after 100 bets...but maybe after a 1,000, 10,000 or a million bets you may start to see slight advantage for one side as opposed to the other.

    But realistically how many players are even gonna have a bank roll after after 1,000, 10,000 or 1 million all-in bets? They would have gone long broke before they see any advantage to winning by your logic.
    I am foolish? If you are overbetting such that your bankroll is stressed by variance then you are in trouble and that is the case whether we are talking about poker, sportsbetting or anything else.

  26. #26
    ttwarrior1
    ttwarrior1's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 06-23-09
    Posts: 28,227
    Betpoints: 3587

    Quote Originally Posted by UntilTheNDofTimE View Post
    Ny,

    In reply to your last post.

    What idiot buys in their entire bankroll? Percentages are over a lifetime not 1 session. I play 2/5 and 5/10 nl and ill never take with me more than 2% of my poker bankroll. Ive sustained 50-75 all in bad beats and its never made me broke.
    What about freerolls, and this is sbr, people use their whole bankrolls on a daily basis. So people that only have 100 to play with should play 5 cent live poker?



    this thread is about sports gambling, not poker

    ps: 80 percent of the PPA live in kentucky and are frauds
    175 pts

    3-QUESTION
    SBR TRIVIA WINNER 12/08/2022

    175 pts

    3-QUESTION
    SBR TRIVIA WINNER 12/05/2022

    175 pts

    3-QUESTION
    SBR TRIVIA WINNER 12/01/2022


  27. #27
    k13
    k13's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 07-16-10
    Posts: 17,161
    Betpoints: 204

    This thread is comedy.

  28. #28
    k13
    k13's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 07-16-10
    Posts: 17,161
    Betpoints: 204

    Quote Originally Posted by NYSportsGuy210 View Post
    Yea but Poker isn't a game of skill....it's a game of chance even more than sports betting is. Sports betting requires more knowledge of sports and the teams involved than does poker and it's knowledge. Sucking out in poker happens a ton more than it does in sports betting.
    Bring all your "knowledge" and pick a 1000 games in NCAAF or NCAAB and I'll pick teams out of a hat, how much better are you going to be? 1%, 10%, 25%, 50%?

    That should be fun.

  29. #29
    NYSportsGuy210
    NYSportsGuy210's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 11-07-09
    Posts: 11,359
    Betpoints: 130

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Abrams View Post
    Ok Phil Ivey. Why arent you spending your millions with models all around you on a remote island right now? Instead you're on this site calling people idiots. Im sure the only poker bets you're making are with these points the site gives out.

    Cause I am telling you from a a fair and objective view point.....from a person that has won decently and has had horrendous bad beats too. When you break the game down and what it's about no matter what decision you make on each individual play or scenario.....it all comes down to LUCK and RANDOMNESS that decides your fate. Waaay more so than gambling on sports.

  30. #30
    NYSportsGuy210
    NYSportsGuy210's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 11-07-09
    Posts: 11,359
    Betpoints: 130

    Quote Originally Posted by k13 View Post
    Bring all your "knowledge" and pick a 1000 games in NCAAF or NCAAB and I'll pick teams out of a hat, how much better are you going to be? 1%, 10%, 25%, 50%?

    That should be fun.

    Again...depends on the games I bet and my due diligence. If I "Golden Greek" my picks you'll probably beat me. If I show discretion and patience I'll probably beat you pretty badly unless you are one sharp "picker out of hats"...lol.

  31. #31
    jjgold
    Update your status
    jjgold's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 07-20-05
    Posts: 393,129
    Betpoints: 476

    Poker is pure gambling

    Look at tourneys, new names all the time

    If there was such a thing as a pro they would dominate and they do not

    a 12 yer old kid can win a poker tourney , you get the cards and you win

  32. #32
    NYSportsGuy210
    NYSportsGuy210's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 11-07-09
    Posts: 11,359
    Betpoints: 130

    Quote Originally Posted by UntilTheNDofTimE View Post
    I never stated i was a pro nor do i claim to be but as far as cash game players go the same People are always winning. Of course theres variance and bad beats but thats part of the game. Im not a super succesful player but ive been playing for 4 years( 14 recreationally) for cash( im 22) and over the past 2 years ive never had a losing month until recently. Ive started to play more 5/10 no limit and on the weekly im playing against some of the best. Jc tran and eric tan to name a couple you might no.
    JC Tran is a little and looser than the norm but definitely a skilled player nonetheless. Definitely seems like you are skilled. However that being said variance in poker is way more higher than in sports betting EVEN IF YOU DO SHOW PATIENCE AND UBER SELECTIVITY. It's just the nature of the game and the way it's set up.

    It's designed to be more a game based on the results of randomness and lack of necessary information than is sports betting or investing in projects or securities.

  33. #33
    Ramster
    Ramster's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 06-08-09
    Posts: 81
    Betpoints: 3162

    I tried poker for 3 years trying to see the skill side of it. What I found? It is full of shit. I won more times with an off suit 5 9 than with a suited A Q (Check that out yourself if you dont believe)
    It is a ******* game of chance. If not it is a game for skunks who play poor hands and still win (read Gus Hansen). The catch is: you need a huge bankroll to justify calling with shit hands and you get paid off more often not. Never ever play poker unless you have shit load of dough to splurge around. Risk is phenomenally high. And if you are type who goes by mathematical analysis you are sure to get ****** up in this game.

  34. #34
    Glitch
    Glitch's Avatar SBR PRO
    Join Date: 07-08-09
    Posts: 11,779
    Betpoints: 8030

    one of my favorite sayings is "poker is 100 percent luck and 100 percent skill."

    people who dont play cant understand this because 100% and 100% make 200% but, people who've played thousands of hours and love the game can.

  35. #35
    Onefreedm1nd
    Onefreedm1nd's Avatar Become A Pro!
    Join Date: 06-15-10
    Posts: 282

    There's skill involved in every game that's not only 1 decision made on an outcome where no one has an edge. If you were flipping coins, it would still take judgement to stop sometime instead of playing until you go broke.

Top