Derek Jeter - Best Black Shortstop of All Time?

[Boner_18]

Anyone even close?

[bubblebuttluv]

Derek Jeter - the best shortstop of all time.

[jjgold]

Longevity wise and numbers wise yes

fielder??

[Chi_archie]

Ernie Banks.

cept he played a lot of first too

[High3rEl3m3nt]

Best SS in terms of fielding has to be Ozzie "The Wizard" Smith.

[manny24]

he is onlty half black

the good half

keep up the good work Bone man!

[Smoke]

He's not a ignna

[BennyBigNuts]

He's Black?
Whitest black guy I've ever seen.
Best team leader ever? Yes. Definitely not the best SS ever. Not even close.
Honus Wagner, Ernie Banks, Arod (Roids or not, homo or not, he was a beast).

[darkhat]

Refuses defeat

He could probably lead the cowboys to a superbowl

[Mitchell88]

he is onlty half black

the good half

keep up the good work Bone man!

he doesn't talk like an idiot, he doesn't think that he is owed the world for something that happened 200 hundred years ago. He is humble............................are you sure he is black at all???/

[bubblebuttluv]

I'll never consider A-Rod a SS. Sure he played as one when before he joined the Yankees, but when he came to The Bronx he knew his place.

A-Rod is a third baseman and a disgrace to baseball.

[stevenash]

Jeter is half black, black dad, white mom.
So, short answer, no.

1) I want a quarter for every "Best SS of all time tread" that pops up on the WWW this baseball season.

2) Honus Wagner is the greatest SS of all time. /end thread
Since this is an 'all time' thread, and not a 'modern era' thread, the list of GOAT SS's starts with Honus Wagener.

3) Just on fielding percentage alone, (range and zone factors included, not any of the other SABR stats included, just good old fielding percentage, you know, putouts+assists divided by putouts+ assists+errors, Tulo is the best of all time (750 or more games played at short stop) Look it up if you, Tulo is #1, Jeter is around #30

Now, if you want to used the space age WAR formula, Ozzie Smith is the greatest ever defensive shortstop in the defensive WAR category, and #2 Mark Belanger, who old time Oriole and baseball fans will tell you was one slick fielding, no hit shortstop, but over the course of his career, Ozzie was was four wins better than number two all time Belanger, and had a 43 WAR(P) rating, not just best of all time a shortstop, best defensive (dWAR) rating of any player ever that played baseball at any position, Ozzie was just that great.

Now Honus Wagner was a great fielding shortstop, not quite Ozzie great, but great.
Wagner hit .329 lifetime, in the deadest of dead ball eras. He stole 722 bases, hit 101 homers in an era when prorated to this era is equal to 350 lifetime homers, give or take 25.
Wagner won eight batting titles.

Honus Wagner was the greatest shortstop ever. Not debatable

Love him or hate him, A-Rod was a good shortstop, with tainted steroid laden offensive numbers.

Most underrated shortstop was Arky Vaughn.

We don't even have to go into detail how great Ernie Banks was? Do we?

Robin Yount is a Hall of Famer, that played excellent shortstop, played short his first 11 years in the majors before moving to the OF. Yount was a gold glove winner at shortstop, Yount won multiple silver sluggers as a shortstop, Yount won a MVP award as a shotstop. Yount is a top five shortstop of all time.

Luke Appling was a great shortstop

And then there is Cal.
Take away the famous streak, is he an all time great?
That is and always will be a great debate.
But Cal needs to be mentioned here.

Aparicio was a slick shortstop and underrated.

What was Jeter?
Jeter is/was an all time ten great shortstop, top five depending on who you talk to, what criteria you use when you compile all time GOAT lists, etc. I got Jeter top four.

These are facts, tangibles if you will, data that can not be disputed.
Jeter has over 3300 hits, Jeter is a lifetime .312 hitter. Jeter owns a lifetime OBA of .381, which is remarkable.
Jeter has 256 homeruns, and 348 stolen bases. Jeter has scored over 100 runs a season 13 times.

Mutliple gold glove award winner, not because he had great range, he did not, he had limited range, but, very big but, those gold gloves were awarded to him based on never making a mistake in the field, for making every play to him cleanly, for being in the right place at the right time, gold glove is not about how much ground you cover, or how slick you are, it's for doing everything you are supposed to do better than everyone else fielding their position. Sure there are other shortstops, a lot more that could get to balls that Jeter could not in the hole or over the second base bag, but that position isn't all about range, it's more about what you do with the ball once you get the ball.
Jeter rarely threw a ball over the firstbaseman's head, Jeter rarely threw to first that had to be scooped out of the dirt.
What about turning the double play? Jeter rarely botched a double play ball, ask Cano how great Jeter was on double plays.

And like Ozzie Smith was clutch.

And most importantly, Jeter has all those rings, almost every piece of hardware a baseball player could have.

[BennyBigNuts]

Cal Ripken was nothing but an average SS who played everyday. Probably one of the most overrated players of all-time because of his streak.

[stevenash]

Cal Ripken was nothing but an average SS who played everyday. Probably one of the most overrated players of all-time because of his streak.

I lean that way too.

1) Honus Wagner was the best
2) Ozzie Smith was the second best.

[Carseller4]

Top 10

Not the best

Jeter is black?

[Boner_18]

He's more black than our "black" president.


Politics..... GGGGGOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

[benjy]

Great post Nash.

[Boner_18]

So nash says yes. All others he named were white.

[stevenash]

So nash says yes. All others he named were white.

Ozzie Smith was not white

[Louisvillekid1]

Jeter is half black, black dad, white mom.
So, short answer, no.

1) I want a quarter for every "Best SS of all time tread" that pops up on the WWW this baseball season.

2) Honus Wagner is the greatest SS of all time. /end thread
Since this is an 'all time' thread, and not a 'modern era' thread, the list of GOAT SS's starts with Honus Wagener.

3) Just on fielding percentage alone, (range and zone factors included, not any of the other SABR stats included, just good old fielding percentage, you know, putouts+assists divided by putouts+ assists+errors, Tulo is the best of all time (750 or more games played at short stop) Look it up if you, Tulo is #1, Jeter is around #30

Now, if you want to used the space age WAR formula, Ozzie Smith is the greatest ever defensive shortstop in the defensive WAR category, and #2 Mark Belanger, who old time Oriole and baseball fans will tell you was one slick fielding, no hit shortstop, but over the course of his career, Ozzie was was four wins better than number two all time Belanger, and had a 43 WAR(P) rating, not just best of all time a shortstop, best defensive (dWAR) rating of any player ever that played baseball at any position, Ozzie was just that great.

Now Honus Wagner was a great fielding shortstop, not quite Ozzie great, but great.
Wagner hit .329 lifetime, in the deadest of dead ball eras. He stole 722 bases, hit 101 homers in an era when prorated to this era is equal to 350 lifetime homers, give or take 25.
Wagner won eight batting titles.

Honus Wagner was the greatest shortstop ever. Not debatable

Love him or hate him, A-Rod was a good shortstop, with tainted steroid laden offensive numbers.

Most underrated shortstop was Arky Vaughn.

We don't even have to go into detail how great Ernie Banks was? Do we?

Robin Yount is a Hall of Famer, that played excellent shortstop, played short his first 11 years in the majors before moving to the OF. Yount was a gold glove winner at shortstop, Yount won multiple silver sluggers as a shortstop, Yount won a MVP award as a shotstop. Yount is a top five shortstop of all time.

Luke Appling was a great shortstop

And then there is Cal.
Take away the famous streak, is he an all time great?
That is and always will be a great debate.
But Cal needs to be mentioned here.

Aparicio was a slick shortstop and underrated.

What was Jeter?
Jeter is/was an all time ten great shortstop, top five depending on who you talk to, what criteria you use when you compile all time GOAT lists, etc. I got Jeter top four.

These are facts, tangibles if you will, data that can not be disputed.
Jeter has over 3300 hits, Jeter is a lifetime .312 hitter. Jeter owns a lifetime OBA of .381, which is remarkable.
Jeter has 256 homeruns, and 348 stolen bases. Jeter has scored over 100 runs a season 13 times.

Mutliple gold glove award winner, not because he had great range, he did not, he had limited range, but, very big but, those gold gloves were awarded to him based on never making a mistake in the field, for making every play to him cleanly, for being in the right place at the right time, gold glove is not about how much ground you cover, or how slick you are, it's for doing everything you are supposed to do better than everyone else fielding their position. Sure there are other shortstops, a lot more that could get to balls that Jeter could not in the hole or over the second base bag, but that position isn't all about range, it's more about what you do with the ball once you get the ball.
Jeter rarely threw a ball over the firstbaseman's head, Jeter rarely threw to first that had to be scooped out of the dirt.
What about turning the double play? Jeter rarely botched a double play ball, ask Cano how great Jeter was on double plays.

And like Ozzie Smith was clutch.

And most importantly, Jeter has all those rings, almost every piece of hardware a baseball player could have.

[Chi_archie]

So nash says yes. All others he named were white.

except Ernie Banks and Ozzie Smith

[Louisvillekid1]

[k13]

Jeter is overrated cause of new york.
No one would care for him on a small market team.

Cal put up good numbers not just showed up to play.

A- rod the best if he counts. Who cares about steroids. Everyone is on them.

[Louisvillekid1]

Jeter is overrated cause of new york.
No one would care for him on a small market team.

Cal put up good numbers not just showed up to play.

A- rod the best if he counts. Who cares about steroids. Everyone is on them.

Worst post ever from you

[EaglesPhan36]

You and me are more on the same wavelength e'ry day. Good luck with your Louisville play this weekend. I am tailing because you told me too.

[BennyBigNuts]

Jeter is overrated cause of new york.
No one would care for him on a small market team.

Cal put up good numbers not just showed up to play.

A- rod the best if he counts. Who cares about steroids. Everyone is on them.

Worst post ever from you

It wasn't that bad L-Kid
Let's not forget Jeter hit in a hitter friendly park with LOADED lineups 95% of his career.
If Jeter was not a Yankee he wouldn't even be hall of fame material in all likelihood.
Very possible and not far-fetched.
But you can't penalize him for being a Yankee.

[You mad bro]

Racist

reported

[stevenash]

Worst post ever from you

Holy crap. The post was brutal on so many levels.
WOW

Nobody would care for him in a small market?
WOW
Everybody applauds a solid work ethic, more so in a small time market, they appreciate a lunch pail mentality that wants to be the best at what he does while go about it the right way.
Only thing he wants to do is win, but win with grace, not being a disgrace. Win, but not at any cost
A-Rod could not field his position like Oz, even if he counted, and I guess he does, is not the best.

Cal put up OK numbers, not good numbers.
.276 lifetime batting average - OK
.340 OBA - OK

Power numbers were good, but not jaw dropping good.

This is what Cal was
A guy who played everyday, fielded his postion well but is a .276/22-90 guy a Hall of Famer just because he showed up every game?

[Chi_archie]

the TWO MVP's for Cal didn't hurt

[Chi_archie]

the TWO MVP's for Cal didn't hurt

as well as the 8 silver slugger awards

remember you are comparing the guy against the SS numbers of his era and those that came before him

[k13]

Jeter is like jonathan toews in hockey. Overrated by Canadians.

Jeter had one good year and now he's the best ever...lol
Put him on the Royals and he never wins anything and no one knows him except hard core fans maybe.

Who do you guys have rated over Bonds?

[stevenash]

the TWO MVP's for Cal didn't hurt

No it did not hurt.
Cal was not the premier SS of his era though.

[stevenash]

Jeter is like jonathan toews in hockey. Overrated by Canadians.

Jeter had one good year and now he's the best ever...lol
Put him on the Royals and he never wins anything and no one knows him except hard core fans maybe.

Who do you guys have rated over Bonds?

Jeter is not the best ever, one of the best.
And how do you know if he is on KC he doesn't win anything. Because you said so.

I saw a pink unicorn last night, prove I did not?

[k13]

Did Jeter even win an MVP???

You'd think playing 20 years you'd win one being the best.

Like Yount, arod, ripken,etc.

penetrate..probably tajada was better....

[bubblebuttluv]

So many Jeter bashers in here.

Benny just comes off as a know-it-all (you would think he watched Honus Wagner in person or something, lol).

k13's schtick is trolling though, so that was expected.

Yankees fans need to stand up and be counted in this thread.

I know Nash and myself are Yankees fans and I am expecting another World Series title this year.

Yeah I said it, Jeter will use sheer force of will to drive his team to another title.

Derek Jeter is my all-time favorite athlete, so take it easy with the shit talking please.