[ttwarrior1]

he needs to go to the titans. Titans don't need to draft a qb. They could trade vince young and a 2nd round pick for kolb.

young can backup vick

[philswin]

Looks like the draft will occur before trades can be made so he may be traded after the draft for 2012 picks or players

[kfranz31]

eagles will be lucky if they get a 2nd round pick for him

[McBa1n]

Do you really think Vick is doing that bad?

I mean, I know he hasn't shown that he has super bowl material yet, but I do think he's tryin to get his game together. I just read that he's planning on doing some work outs with some of his WR's and RB's while the whole CBA deal goes down... I think he's finally understanding what has to be done.
I think he's learning from his game mistakes... Yeah I agree he choked during the playoffs, but to me getting to the Playoffs after being a backup QB say a lot...

I guess my whole point here is that keeping Kolb on the team really isn't benefiting anyone and Kolb doesn't want to be a back up, and to me he isn't.

But I really like to read what you have to say McBa1n, you seem like you know your Game...

Much respect.

Be Cool

All good, it's fun to get into a developed discussion.
The thing about Vick is there is a TON of PR flack behind him. The league WANTS him to do well. If I read one more fluff piece about him, I think I'm going to call him Ned freaking Flanders. The fact is, he's still maturing as a human. He never really showed much as a passer, IMO and teams were starting to figure out how to make him a passer. He was beating no one with just his arm. You don't miss 3 years of your career and develop that quickly at that age in your 30s. He picked up TONS of bad habits when he was younger. It's a shame it took prison to get him to realize what he can do. It takes dickloads of practice, study and LEARNING. It makes me think he did none of those first 3 things pre-prison.

For me, it's all on the tape. It looks to me like Philly was giving him 1 or 2 progressions to track when he went back to pass. When you have Desean Jackson and you see a potential single coverage - that's an easy read. And to be honest, that's a pass Vick can make. However, when the coverage is disguised, you see open receivers out in their patterns (that Vick never initially was looking at) - yet Vick can never seem to find them in the initial read. He misses open receivers constantly and only seems to find them whilst scrambling for his life.

These are the things that make guys like Manning or Brady f'n incredible. They identify the guy they want to target - and then use their eyes to make the throw easier, or just take what the D is giving them. With Vick - he's got his 1 or 2 guys he WANTS to throw the ball to, but once the ball is snapped, he's watching those 1 or 2 guys... If they aren't open, then the incredible genious of physicality goes to work. This makes for an oft-injured QB, because after those 3 seconds - and the ball isn't out, he's just improvising - and that's what makes him special, but it doesn't make for a long and effective career. He has to learn to read better and take what the D is giving him.

I'm not saying Vick cannot develop further, but you can see how unconfident he is when his running lanes are shut down and he's being hit a lot. I can't tell you how many times I've seen even elite QBs take that beating and melt down, but usually, it's only the elite QBs that can overcome that amount of pressure (read: Brady and Manning). Vick is such a unique talent, but look at say Aaron Rodgers. Rodgers has an elite presence and excellent escapability. I think the things Rodgers does with his feet are incredible and add VALUE to his already top tier pocket ability. Vick has just never been able to read D's all that well.

It's a shame that there's a lockout going on, Vick is going to miss out on a lot of critical study under an excellent coach. It's just because of this, I think Kolb could very well be the superior decision right now... But we may never find out. The kid deserves to start. As for Vick? He's going to sell a dickload of jerseys and get huge ratings because he's so damn exciting. But when it comes down to it, coaches around the league have a lot more tape on how to slow down and make Vick a passer. That's not a good thing, unless Vick proves he can stand in the pocket and make better reads. That's going to take a dickload of work - and work that should be going on right now. I dunno, if I had a choice of Vick vs Kolb, I'd let Vick walk to free agency and see if Kolb is my guy. Or keep Vick and pay him huge money in case something happens. I just don't think you can win a superbowl with Vick right now.

[CaptainPrice]

2nd and conditional pick as high as a 1

[Jimmy0607]

A first and a fourth

[SHADYLANKY]

From what I have seen he could be an OK QB but I doubt he will ever be great. I would lean more towards the he will be overpaid and remembered as a bust than being a OK QB for 5-7 yrs. That is assuming he can even stay healthy.

[Dax]

All good, it's fun to get into a developed discussion. The thing about Vick is there is a TON of PR flack behind him. The league WANTS him to do well. If I read one more fluff piece about him, I think I'm going to call him Ned freaking Flanders. The fact is, he's still maturing as a human. He never really showed much as a passer, IMO and teams were starting to figure out how to make him a passer. He was beating no one with just his arm. You don't miss 3 years of your career and develop that quickly at that age in your 30s. He picked up TONS of bad habits when he was younger. It's a shame it took prison to get him to realize what he can do. It takes dickloads of practice, study and LEARNING. It makes me think he did none of those first 3 things pre-prison. For me, it's all on the tape. It looks to me like Philly was giving him 1 or 2 progressions to track when he went back to pass. When you have Desean Jackson and you see a potential single coverage - that's an easy read. And to be honest, that's a pass Vick can make. However, when the coverage is disguised, you see open receivers out in their patterns (that Vick never initially was looking at) - yet Vick can never seem to find them in the initial read. He misses open receivers constantly and only seems to find them whilst scrambling for his life. These are the things that make guys like Manning or Brady f'n incredible. They identify the guy they want to target - and then use their eyes to make the throw easier, or just take what the D is giving them. With Vick - he's got his 1 or 2 guys he WANTS to throw the ball to, but once the ball is snapped, he's watching those 1 or 2 guys... If they aren't open, then the incredible genious of physicality goes to work. This makes for an oft-injured QB, because after those 3 seconds - and the ball isn't out, he's just improvising - and that's what makes him special, but it doesn't make for a long and effective career. He has to learn to read better and take what the D is giving him. I'm not saying Vick cannot develop further, but you can see how unconfident he is when his running lanes are shut down and he's being hit a lot. I can't tell you how many times I've seen even elite QBs take that beating and melt down, but usually, it's only the elite QBs that can overcome that amount of pressure (read: Brady and Manning). Vick is such a unique talent, but look at say Aaron Rodgers. Rodgers has an elite presence and excellent escapability. I think the things Rodgers does with his feet are incredible and add VALUE to his already top tier pocket ability. Vick has just never been able to read D's all that well. It's a shame that there's a lockout going on, Vick is going to miss out on a lot of critical study under an excellent coach. It's just because of this, I think Kolb could very well be the superior decision right now... But we may never find out. The kid deserves to start. As for Vick? He's going to sell a dickload of jerseys and get huge ratings because he's so damn exciting. But when it comes down to it, coaches around the league have a lot more tape on how to slow down and make Vick a passer. That's not a good thing, unless Vick proves he can stand in the pocket and make better reads. That's going to take a dickload of work - and work that should be going on right now. I dunno, if I had a choice of Vick vs Kolb, I'd let Vick walk to free agency and see if Kolb is my guy. Or keep Vick and pay him huge money in case something happens. I just don't think you can win a superbowl with Vick right now.

Sir I have to say you know your football and I take off my hat for you .

I agree that Vick tends to choke and shut down when his lanes are closed, as we saw with his last game against the Vikings. But It was for sure not all his fault, if his protection would have been a bit more solid he would have had at least a chance to get rid of the ball, but I agree he panicked and that's what lost him the game.
Still I do think he has potential and can take the Eagles to the SB... at least I see it more possible to happen with Vick than with Kolb.

Kolb is a solid play but I just don't see him fit with the Philly game plan.

[nosniboR11]

hey dax well at least nobody is taking there hat off to you for knowing baseball, do not see that happening ever

[McBa1n]

Sir I have to say you know your football and I take off my hat for you .

I agree that Vick tends to choke and shut down when his lanes are closed, as we saw with his last game against the Vikings. But It was for sure not all his fault, if his protection would have been a bit more solid he would have had at least a chance to get rid of the ball, but I agree he panicked and that's what lost him the game.
Still I do think he has potential and can take the Eagles to the SB... at least I see it more possible to happen with Vick than with Kolb.

Kolb is a solid play but I just don't see him fit with the Philly game plan.

Thank you for the endorsement, but really, facts all show up on tape if yout study it hard. Actually, you just have to go back to tape of Vick pre-prison and watch how defenses went up against him and won. esentially, you roll a 5 man 'front' and do NOT be crazy rolling off of your man- and contain the pocket. Tampa figured it out and dominated Vick.

Bottom line is, I think Philly is nuts if they just 'hand over' the keys to Vick. I think Kolb could be a really nice QB... In Vick's coming out party, I still don't believe he is a QB that can win a superbowl. He has the ability to be the best QB ever, but he's nowhere near that with his reads (which you can learn with HARD film study). Also Vick is in his 30s. it doesn't take a genious to figure out what will happen.

To be fair - I don't get the NFL Network anymore and I boycott ESPN - so my opinions are based off of what I see. ESPN is far and away the WORST for talent evaluation(save, Kiper), they just want money. NFL Network, outside of Mike Mayock, is unbelievable crap. There's so many former 'jaded' talking heads - and they are mostly biased.

Pardon the text - I actually love it, when it happens. It's just very rare. The NFL is just painful to cap... But I LOVE when there is a debate - and a debate that says something. I'm wrong all the time, but that's what is impossible with the NFL. I just wish there was more discourse on here.

[slacker00]

McBa1n, what do you think of Eagles #3 QB Mike Kafka? Apparently they like him as much or more than Kolb.

Philly's problem is that they've got too much depth at the QB position. (A good problem to have.) They're just trying to cash it in.

I'm sure they'd be just as happy, or more happy, to trade Vick instead of Kolb. But I'm not sure Vick has a ton of trade value.

So, the plan seems to be to ride Vick, maybe 11 more games until he blows out his ACL and then hand the reins over to Kafka.

[jahred6999]

The 49ers will trade Alex Smith for him!

[philswin]

They do not have a good read on Kafka yet but he will get more reps this year in the pre-season he really looked lost last year in pre-season. Think they envision him as the backup for the 2012 season. They will trade Kolb, some team will overpay for him with the lack of quality Qbs in the league. They will probably sign a veteren to a 1 year contract be the backup in 2011, Marc Bulger and Seneca Wallace's names have been thrown around by the philly media.

[McBa1n]

McBa1n, what do you think of Eagles #3 QB Mike Kafka? Apparently they like him as much or more than Kolb.

Philly's problem is that they've got too much depth at the QB position. (A good problem to have.) They're just trying to cash it in.

I'm sure they'd be just as happy, or more happy, to trade Vick instead of Kolb. But I'm not sure Vick has a ton of trade value.

So, the plan seems to be to ride Vick, maybe 11 more games until he blows out his ACL and then hand the reins over to Kafka.

To be honest, I've not seen Kafka enough. It seems the Philly PR is out in full force on him. I read a story today about Andy Reid throwing out big props to Kafka. It's uncertain how talented he is. I trust in Reid's development of QBs, but Kafka never JUMPED out at me in anything he did in his prior workouts. Heck, I lost my shit over watching Jon Skelton throw the football, yet, he's a project right now in Arizona, although, I think he has potential to be a quite servieable QB.

I think Philly is in a tough spot right now. They will pay Vick the average of the top 5 QBs in the league, whilst he probably isn't even top 10. I'd have to look at QB salaries.

You really have to look at QBs that made inroads in the NFL with Reid when he was with Green Bay. Brunell, Ty Detmer and Aaron Brooks. All of those QBs were productive in some way. Kafka I have not seen enough on to make any real evaluation. A lot of people that study the NFL harder than I do like him alot (and none of them are punters, like me).

To be fair, I think the Iggles are trying to create an environment of 'awesome' QBs. Whilst I think trading McNabb was about as dumb as you can get (mostly fan hate, IMO) - I think Reid's performance of being competitive EVERY year shows Reid is a top coach/talent evaluator - inflating a 3rd QBs stock.

I think the Reid touting of Kafka is to try to find a way to 'sort out' his QB position whilst making deals. The NFL has shown me enough whilst I've been capping to realize that SOME team could bite. Andy is just trying to get more picks. You just don't tout a 3rd string QB without trying to find some value.

I do really question Philly's QB situation. Having a 'good problem' at that position is a HORRIBLE thing. When Madden said: "when you have 2 QBs - you have none", I think holds true. Regardless of what happens, Philly has a shot, but I think they have less of a shot with Vick.

[kingdom]

I think Kolb give the eagles a much better chance to win than vick. vick is just a regular season quarterback i believe he has the same amount of playoff wins as Rex Grossman

trent dilfer has a superbowl ring idiot. and he's not in the top 100. anybody can be carried by a team, but can anyone carry a team? vick has put two on his back on multiple occasions and carried them to improbable wins. do you forget he was a play away from beating gb in the playoffs this year?went into lambeau and won with atlanta when no one did? and took a perennial loser like the falcons to the nfc championship? not to mention the 4 pro bowls in the 6 full seasons he played. get a clue

[slacker00]

trent dilfer has a superbowl ring idiot. and he's not in the top 100. anybody can be carried by a team, but can anyone carry a team? vick has put two on his back on multiple occasions and carried them to improbable wins. do you forget he was a play away from beating gb in the playoffs this year?went into lambeau and won with atlanta when no one did? and took a perennial loser like the falcons to the nfc championship? not to mention the 4 pro bowls in the 6 full seasons he played. get a clue

This is a great post. Vick did a lot this year with an Eagles team that was supposed to be rebuilding.

Vick certainly isn't the prototypical pock passer, which should shorten his career when his legs go, but he wins.

[icancount2one]

A first or like a 2, 4 and 5. Weak QB draft class and tough QB market. Knowing Philly sports, odds are the guy will become a hall of famer and Vick will break his knees.

[pozzy]

I dont know too much about him but if phili was gonna make him the "franchise" qb id give them a #15 pick in the 1st round for him.. Maybe as low as #10

[jetsjets1028]

not a lot at all

[McBa1n]

This is a great post. Vick did a lot this year with an Eagles team that was supposed to be rebuilding.

Vick certainly isn't the prototypical pock passer, which should shorten his career when his legs go, but he wins.

Sorry to go against you, slacker - but look at his wins and look at how the team wins. To me, there's 2 defining moments for Vick right NOW. 1- his performance vs the ViQueens, where the game got delayed. That's a game that essentailly gifts you to the Superbowl, yet Joe Webb was a better QB that night. The 2nd is how he essentially melted down vs GB. GB, tradionally stinks on D - but on that day, they mauled Vick in HUGE spots.

I think the boy can ball bigtime, but he's not as good as most people belive - in fact, he's not ever close to that stature.

To further my point, Philly is competing for the Super Bowl every year. I strongly disagree they were rebuilding. Sure, they have a dickload of holes - but they also have a top coach and a top team. You don't give away McNabb and think you're rebuilding - especially not to a division rival. Philly skinned the Skins on that deal. Although, I think they would've been better if they didn't deal McNabb.

[Roadtrip635]

I think that Kolb can be a good QB in the NFL. Because of Vick's style of play, the Eagles need a competent back up, which will drive up the price for what Philly will want to trade him. Vick is very exciting to watch but also opens himself up to injury, and without Kolb, they don't have that insurance, which is Kolb's biggest value to Philly. Philly is going to want at least a 1st and 3rd (depending on draft position of course), they will need to draft or try to find a reliable veteran to fill that spot. Most teams will have a hard time parting with those kinds of picks, plus having to sign Kolb to a big contract on top of that for a still relatively unproven QB. Becomes even more difficult for that type of deal without having OTA's and shortened or no training camp. Philly might be able to get a conditional 1st rd pick, but I would expect more of a package trade where Philly trade Kolb and a 3rd round pick for a 1st and 4th round pick. Definitely would not be surprised to see a multi-team trade where Philly ends up with multiple picks in 2nd-5th rounds.

[Jnas]

He's not bad there are a lot worse out there. A first rounder + is definately justified