[frostno98]

Cool Joe won 4 Championships, so did Bradshaw, while Aikman is 3-0. All three had great winnings percentage's in the playoffs, but nowhere in the top 10 of most passing statistic.

Montana had Jerry Rice and Ronnie Lott, two of the best players ever in their positions, and ton of other great supporting cast along the way like John Taylor, Roger Craig, Dwight Clark. Montana was also lucky to have Bill Walsh running the west coast offense, which was hard to defend in the 90's because you didn't have the same amount of video that they do today on film.

[warriorfan707]

Montana is the greatest QB that ever lived.

[baskets]

Brady never would've won a SuperBowl if he weren't playing for the Pats

imagine what would've happened to him. interesting, huh? same goes for Steve Young.

you've got to be at the right place at the right time

[str]

IMO Montana was great.

Saying he was the GREATEST is not realistic, again IMO.

[warriorfan707]

You cant take anything away from these guys for being surrounded by good players and coaches.

Theres plenty of guys who had great teams for never years and never won a Super Bowl.

[warriorfan707]

IMO Montana was great.

Saying he was the GREATEST is not realistic, again IMO.

Ok lets hear who you think is the greatest and better than he was, then lets hear why thats realistic?

[8ArIvd5]

Goat!

[str]

Ok lets hear who you think is the greatest and better than he was, then lets hear why thats realistic?

BART STARR (Green Bay, 1956-71) Best season (1966): 156 for 251 (62.2%), 2,257 yards, 9.0 YPA, 14 TD, 3 INT, 105.0 passer rating
Career: 1,808 for 3,149 (57.4%), 24,718 yards, 7.8 YPA, 152 TD, 138 INT, 80.5 passer rating
Championships: 1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967
Overview: That's right. Bart Starr. The greatest quarterback in the history of the game.

Sit down and take notes:

History has done a grave disservice to the legacy of Starr, the 17th-round draft pick out of pre-Bear Bryant Alabama who turned into the most clutch and most cruelly efficient passing assassin of his or any other generation.

History remembers Starr's legendary coach, and the bevy of Hall of Fame talent that surrounded him. It forgets that Starr was Lombardi's second in command, a tremendous big-game performer, and that the Packers of the 1960s would have been just another team without the prolific Starr as their beloved on-field leader. Instead, they won five NFL championships, with Starr at the helm of every single one of those title teams, while he crafted an NFL-record 9-1 postseason mark. The rings say it all: Starr is the only quarterback in history who has one for every finger on his throwing hand.

And even if you listen to teammates today, they make it pretty clear that they would have fallen on a grenade for Starr. Leadership is an elemental piece of quarterbacking – probably more important than gaudy passing stats. And that love his teammates had for their field general is an incredible sign of his leadership.

But forget, for a moment, the team accomplishments and the "intangibles" of leadership.

If you want to talk passing and statistics, we'll put Starr up against anybody. Anybody.

He led the NFL in passer rating five times. Johnny Unitas led the league in passer rating just twice. Ditto Joe Montana. Only Steve Young surpassed Starr's mark (six).

And, lest we forget, Starr was the best postseason passer in NFL history, as evidenced by his record 104.8 playoff passer rating and 1.41 percent interception rate, also a postseason record (CHFF readers are well aware of the importance of not throwing picks in the playoffs). Starr played in an era when 80 was a decent passer rating. Yet he still performed more efficiently in the playoffs than folks such as Montana, Brady, Manning, Marino, Young and ... well, anybody, ever.

There's a cause and effect here, folks: NFL's greatest dynasty, only winners of three-straight title games, and a record 9-1 postseason mark. And there, underlying it all, is Starr with his postseason passing records. The two are intricately intertwined.

History also remembers Starr's Packers as a great running team, and that's certainly true of their earlier years. But the truth is that they typically passed the ball more effectively than they ran it, especially during their run of three straight, when they were a below-average running team.

In their 1965 championship season, the Packers were 11th in the 14-team league with an average of 3.4 yards per rushing attempt. They were second in the league, with an average of 8.2 yards per passing attempt.

In their 1966 championship season, the Packers were 14th in the 15-team league, with an average of 3.5 yards per rushing attempt. They were first in the league, with an average of 8.9 yards per passing attempt.

In their 1967 championship season, the Packers were 4th in the 16-team league, with an average of 4.0 yards per rushing attempt. They were first in the league, with an average of 8.3 yards per passing attempt (Starr himself that season averaged 8.7 YPA).

Starr averaged a remarkable 7.85 YPA over the course of his entire career, the 8th-best mark in history, and better than that of a slate of quarterbacks who are generally regarded as the best passers in history, including Dan Marino (7.37), Joe Montana (7.52), Roger Staubach (7.67), Dan Fouts (7.68), Sonny Jurgensen (7.56), Fran Tarkenton (7.27), Y.A. Tittle (7.52), Terry Bradshaw (7.17) and Joe Namath (7.35).

Six times in the 1960s, Starr surpassed 8.2 YPA for a season. To put that into context, Peyton Manning has surpassed 8.2 YPA just twice in his brilliant 10-year career.

And, if you want drama, don't forget that Starr scored the winning TD in the Ice Bowl, probably the most famous game in NFL history. Sure, Montana led his team 92 yards for the game-winning score in Super Bowl XXIII. But he did it on a 68-degree night in Miami. Turn down the thermostat by 86 degrees (it was 18-below in the fourth quarter of the Ice Bowl) and you begin to approximate the conditions under which the greatest quarterback in NFL history operated during his greatest moment in the sport's greatest game.

And Starr was brilliant on that drive, in the decisive moments of the sport's most famous game: he completed 5 of 5 passes in ball-busting cold, and then called a run play for the winning score. But instead of handing it off, he decided in his mind, without telling his teammates, that he was going to punch it in himself. It was only fitting: the game's greatest signal-caller taking matters into his own hands in the sport's signature moment.

To cap his career achievements, Starr earned MVP honors in the first two Super Bowls after shredding the best the AFL could throw his way for 452 yards on 47 passing attempts (9.6 YPA). Among those victims were the 1967 Raiders, perhaps the AFL's greatest single team. He posted a combined 106.0 passer rating in those two games. If you think it was no small feat to beat up on "upstart" AFL teams, just look at how NFL quarterbacks fared in Super Bowls III and IV. (Here's a hint: they were embarrassed.)

When it comes to a combination of leadership, victories, big-game performances and statistical supremacy nobody – NOBODY – put together a more total package than Bart Starr, the greatest quarterback in NFL history.

[Chi_archie]

not the greatest. and not over-rated by most. I think he is RATED well

Namoth and Bradshaw are over-rated IMO

[MartinBlank]

Montana is definitely Top 1-5.

Which is more of a realistic question. Which QBs are the best of All-Time.

Montana surely gets mentioned. Brady has to be considered.

Alot of the youngers guys won't have had the chance to watch these guys, but a guy like Roger Staubach has to be up there too.

The one difference between today's QB and guys like Staubach (and even Montana)-----they took a beating. Montana had his back broke by Jim Burt.

Terry Bradshaw was a winner, and Fran Tarkenton (even though he never won a SB) was a very good QB.

It was open season on QB in the 1970s. Today, a guy gets a 3 game suspension that would have been perfectly legal back in the 70s.

When you look at the stats of guys like Brees, Brady, and Rodgers, you have to at least acknowledge how much more offensive friendly the game is today. Cornerbacks mugged WRs 30 years ago, today--they can't touch them.

[ttwarrior1]

if anyone remembers when montana went to the chiefs, he kicked butt there too with junk players. Not a bad team but he definetly made them good and had a chance

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/kan/1993.htm

[3PtShooter]

Herm Guillium

[warriorfan707]

Bart Starr was a better QB than Montana?

[frostno98]

Ok lets hear who you think is the greatest and better than he was, then lets hear why thats realistic?

The problem when making this argument is, people will automatically point to his 4-0 Superbowl record, which is where you put the overrated part in.

I think Brady will probably be above the rest, if he can get another ring. Because his passing stats blows Joe Montana's away.

Had Peyton Manning went 2-0, I would easily said he was the best NFL QB ever, because look just at how bad the Colts are without him. Plus, most of Manning passing yardages does not come from a spread offense like what Brees, Brady, and Rodgers does.

The Pats went 11-5 without Brady, while the 49er's won another Superbowl with Steve Young just 5 years later after giving Montana the boot in 1992

I still say right now it's debatable between Montana and Elway, but again people will simply point to his 4-0 record verses Elway 2-3 Superbowl record. Even though Elway's 3 losses had more to do with an anemic offense going against much more superior opposition.

[str]

Bart Starr was a better QB than Montana?

Nice comeback.

[warriorfan707]

I dont need a comeback. Montana made all the comebacks for me already.

[str]

I dont need a comeback. Montana made all the comebacks for me already.

Starr didn't need too.

[warriorfan707]

The two QB's played in totally different ERA's. Its really tough to compare.

Monatans stats look far superior and so did the Niners. I dont see how one can reasonably side with Starr.

Plus the ERA Montana played in the level of Defense was much higher.

[str]

No need in arguing.

If you take the time to read what I copied you might see what I am talking about.

Sammy Baugh was another one.

Yep, different era's.

But just as the defenses were more complex, so were the offenses.

That's why the "greatest' is silly. Top 5 or top 10 is about as close as anyone can reasonably get in most cases IMO.

[k13]

His stats compared to his peers at the time make him much better than Brady or anyone.

Passing 600 times in a year compared 400 would be a huge difference don't you think?

NFL is a joke now with the rules. Every clown can come in and throw for 5000 yards. Nothing special.

Career QB rating is still one of the highest and around where Brady will most likely finish.

Obviously you get overrated by Super Bowl wins, Super Bowls are overrated to begin with.
No QB would win one on a really bad team.

Brady is not winning any super bowls with the Browns and neither is Montana.

[McBa1n]

Montana shouldn't be any lower than 2nd best ever on any list. I thought Brady and Montana were 1a and 1b, but that 16-0 season Brady put up was the difference, in my opinion. You can compare the 2 QBs, there are some parallels, the biggest being, both are prolific big game winners, something Peyton is not (Eli is a better big game QB IMO).

The information is all out there, when you start saying things like 'but he had', just remember Brady had NOTHING when he won his first superbowl. Remember JR Redmond? Jermaine Wiggins? David Patten? Yeesh. You can't fault a guy for being amazing with amazing players. Brady to Moss or Brady to Welker, whilst different from Montana to Rice, is every bit as deadly. That said, Jerry is one of the best football players to ever play the game. The best get the best out of each other, making them unique combinations and fun as heck to watch.

But yeah, you can't say 'this guy would've done x' with another team. You don't know that. You can only look at what they've done. Montana is no worst than the 2nd best ever, and is definitely in the argument for best ever.

[Dad]

I dont need a comeback. Montana made all the comebacks for me already.

[PackerBacker]

Not even close, Montana the greatest of all time!

[Roadtrip635]

Montana was the best I've seen, but it's almost impossible to to compare QB's from different eras. Brady, Starr and Sammy Baugh are in my Top 10, but if I had to win one game and could pick any QB to start it would be Montana.

Like it's been already stated, the rule changes have really skewed the stats for the current era of QB's. Outside of pulling out a baseball bat and clubbing a QB there wasn't the late hit, helmet to helmet, hit below the knees, driving into the turf etc. penalties to protect the QB's. Add in the rule changes against the Defense for how they could hit or defend receivers and rule changes that allow the QB's to throw the ball away and not have to take an intentional grounding penalty. Today guys like Harrison and Suh are labeled dirty players and villains for their play, but guys like Butkus, Jack Ham, and NightTrain Lane are thought of as some of the game's all time greats. How many of today's WR's or TE's are going to be eager going over the middle with Butkus or Ham waiting to lay them out or NightTrain on the outside ready to twist their head off like a bottle cap, without the modern rules protecting them? The other factor to be taken into consideration is modern technology, the advancements in training and medical procedures.

[jjgold]

No such thing as best ever
Can make a case for 15 guys

[eidolon]

Starr vs Montana:

Starr: 5 championship rings. MVP of 2 of them. QB rating: 104 post season rating (the avg of the 2 Super Bowl games was 105 rating).

Montana: 4 Super Bowl rings. MVP 3 of them. QB rating: 127 for Super bowls (lowest was 100).

I think if we are talking about the championship game, and who you want as your QB, I will take Montana. The fact that his lowest qb rating was 100 in 4 super bowls says a lot.

[eidolon]

Montana shouldn't be any lower than 2nd best ever on any list. I thought Brady and Montana were 1a and 1b, but that 16-0 season Brady put up was the difference, in my opinion. You can compare the 2 QBs, there are some parallels, the biggest being, both are prolific big game winners, something Peyton is not (Eli is a better big game QB IMO).

The information is all out there, when you start saying things like 'but he had', just remember Brady had NOTHING when he won his first superbowl. Remember JR Redmond? Jermaine Wiggins? David Patten? Yeesh. You can't fault a guy for being amazing with amazing players. Brady to Moss or Brady to Welker, whilst different from Montana to Rice, is every bit as deadly. That said, Jerry is one of the best football players to ever play the game. The best get the best out of each other, making them unique combinations and fun as heck to watch.

But yeah, you can't say 'this guy would've done x' with another team. You don't know that. You can only look at what they've done. Montana is no worst than the 2nd best ever, and is definitely in the argument for best ever.

All I remember is me and my friends would always say "Montana to Rice for the TD!" when we would throw the football around.

[casinobones]

The Best all around QB I've ever seen passing,avoiding the rush,scrambling, running,throwing on the run,taking hits,reading defenses,audibles,and being MR.Cluth, taking into consideration the weapons he had or the lack there of, and the poor defenses he had for 90 percent of his career,and the teams he had to compete against during the 80's,90's mostly,IT"S NOT EVEN CLOSE!!! JOHN ELWAY was the MAN!I'd take him over anybody.But my top 5 probably( 1.Elway,2.Brady,3.Montana 4.Rodgers 5.P.Manning) other greats...in no particular order S.Young,Marino, J.Kelly,Brees,Tarkington,Bradshaw,K.Warn er,etc...

[lakerboy]

Joe Montana was the greatest QB i ever watched play. He was cool under any sort of pressure. He hardly ever lost a big game and he was without a doubt the most accurate passer of all times for a guy who played as long as he did.

[casinobones]

[QUOTE=casinobones;13351241]The Best all around QB I've ever seen passing,avoiding the rush,scrambling, running,throwing on the run,taking hits,reading defenses,audibles,and being MR.Cluth, taking into consideration the weapons he had or the lack there of, and the poor defenses he had for 90 percent of his career,and the teams he had to compete against during the 80's,90's mostly,IT"S NOT EVEN CLOSE!!! JOHN ELWAY was the MAN!I'd take him over anybody.But my top 5 probably( 1.Elway,2.Brady,3.Montana 4.Rodgers 5.P.Manning) other greats...in no particular order S.Young,Marino, J.Kelly,Brees,Tarkington,Bradshaw,K.Warn er,etc...

[casinobones]

others,Aiken,Staubach,Stabler,and ???I'm sure i will think of others after i post this LoL

[baskets]

all these qb's would be nothing if they didn't have the reliable Rae Caruth to pass to.

YOU DA MAN, RAY RAY!!!

[beerman2619]

all these qb's would be nothing if they didn't have the reliable Rae Caruth to pass to.

YOU DA MAN, RAY RAY!!!

How can you even joke around about that? Baskets you are one sick buck son.

[SBR_John]

Montana is the greatest QB that ever lived.

In my humble opinion Joe was the best ever. I was never a fan, he beat my favorite teams in college, Texas and Houston and in the Pro's the road to his Superbowls went through Dallas.

In the early years he could run. This was in the era when QB's were battered and there was no illegal contact against receivers.

Joe Monatana was the best. Steve Young, Roger Staubach were great. Bradshaw and Aikman had tremendous defenses and great running backs. Phil Sims had an incredible Superbowl something like 28-30 with a drop. Warren Moon was a darn good QB.

[warriorfan707]

In my humble opinion Joe was the best ever. I was never a fan, he beat my favorite teams in college, Texas and Houston and in the Pro's the road to his Superbowls went through Dallas.

In the early years he could run. This was in the era when QB's were battered and there was no illegal contact against receivers.

Joe Monatana was the best. Steve Young, Roger Staubach were great. Bradshaw and Aikman had tremendous defenses and great running backs. Phil Sims had an incredible Superbowl something like 28-30 with a drop. Warren Moon was a darn good QB.

Absolutely, in his younger years he was very mobile and had an uncanny knack for running into the endzone from short distances.

You list some other great names too. Personally I always thought Bradshaw was a little overrated... But Aikman was one of the most accurate ever. Young and Staubach speak for themselves.

Warren Moon is also a good one. Very underrated. Fran Tarkenton and Marino of course deserve honorable mention as well as some others.