[ChalkyDog]

Everytime I hear Bron fanboys talk about comparisons to Jordan, and use James "all-around" stats as proof, I always wonder how they rectify the fact that he doesn't have better "all-around" stats than The Big O.

So, using a very simple if-then logic.

If Jordan > Oscar
And Oscar > LeBron
Then LeBron cannot be > Jordan.

Unless of course, LeBron fans are willing to call Oscar better than Mike, but that still makes Bron Bron fall short of The GOAT label.

In Summary, LeBron NEEDS to win 7 rings to be legit contender for The GOAT. As the stats alone argument that many of those knuckle draggers hold onto for dear life, simply doesn't work.

[stevenash]

^
Yes
Talk to me in 2018 if LBJ is top five. Right now he is an all time elite work in progress still,

[TheMoneyShot]

And everyone talks about Jordan and Lebron... one of the most dangerous present athletes is Durant. If someone would teach this kid a "Pit Bull" like attitude... I wouldn't mess with him. To me he is really unguardable. The problem with OKC after Westbrook's injury... Durant was always taught to give Westbrook some playing time etc. Give the ball to him... etc. All year he wasn't prepared to take over a team. It's unfortunate but Durant's mind just wasn't ready.

[InTheDrink]

Everytime I hear Bron fanboys talk about comparisons to Jordan, and use James "all-around" stats as proof, I always wonder how they rectify the fact that he doesn't have better "all-around" stats than The Big O.

So, using a very simple if-then logic.

If Jordan > Oscar
And Oscar > LeBron
Then LeBron cannot be > Jordan.

Unless of course, LeBron fans are willing to call Oscar better than Mike, but that still makes Bron Bron fall short of The GOAT label.

In Summary, LeBron NEEDS to win 7 rings to be legit contender for The GOAT. As the stats alone argument that many of those knuckle draggers hold onto for dear life, simply doesn't work.

intelligent logic > simple logic

in oscar robertson's triple double season the nba scoring average was 118.8 ppg and teams took an average of 107.7 shots per game

the heat scored 95 pts and took 82 shots last night

more scoring = more points and more assists

more shooting with a lower shooting % = more rebounds

stats in the 60's = joke

[ChalkyDog]

intelligent logic > simple logic

in oscar robertson's triple double season the nba scoring average was 118.8 ppg and teams took an average of 107.7 shots per game

the heat scored 95 pts and took 82 shots last night

more scoring = more points and more assists

more shooting with a lower shooting % = more rebounds

stats in the 60's = joke

If we start holding era's against the all-time greats. You would have an insane overrepresentation by 80's and 90's players (even more so than now).

It also doesn't help LeBron's case, as the current NBA is as lack luster as I've ever witnessed.

As a slight aside, the guy hugging LeBron last night - was damn near Finals MVP.

[stevenash]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi

[InTheDrink]

If we start holding era's against the all-time greats. You would have an insane overrepresentation by 80's and 90's players (even more so than now).

It also doesn't help LeBron's case, as the current NBA is as lack luster as I've ever witnessed.

As a slight aside, the guy hugging LeBron last night - was damn near Finals MVP.

you were using stats to compare robertson and lebron...i was simply explaining why that's not good reasoning

all we can do is compare players relative to their era....lebron is far and away the best player of his generation....oscar robertson wasn't...that's pretty much a fact

if you want to compare/contrast generations, well of course that's 100% opinion

[InTheDrink]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi

nasher you do realize that's based on voting from the site visitors?

quite possibly the worst method of ranking players

[Otters27]

Interesting list. Scottie Pippen higher than Wade and Horace Grant higher than Bosh

[meader99]

Lebron is a great talent and player but he hasn't reached that Kobe/Jordan level of of killer instinct and refusal to lose.

I mean, we are one free throw or missed Ray Allen three from not even having this discussion. Lebron has went to three game 7s in the past two years and Jordan never went to one.

Lebron won't win 7 rings. If he does, then yes, we can have the discussion.

He needs to win a few more titles. Hell, he only has half as many as Duncan. I'm slowly giving him more and more credit but that's because he was won titles the last two season. If he keeps it up, I'll welcome the conversation more.

Yes, he did. The debate is completely moot until LeBron is done. At this point, he's not even close to MJ. MJ would beat you down physically AND mentally. In either order he chose. The thing that disappoints me most about LeBron is his post game, or lack thereof. He can draw the double team in the post, but when he's left one on one in the post, he looks uncomfortable and doesn't score at a high level. MJ had the greatest post game of any back court player in the history of the game. It's sad that as big and strong as LeBron is, he hasn't developed that part of his game to this point.

[InTheDrink]

Yes, he did. The debate is completely moot until LeBron is done. At this point, he's not even close to MJ. MJ would beat you down physically AND mentally. In either order he chose. The thing that disappoints me most about LeBron is his post game, or lack thereof. He can draw the double team in the post, but when he's left one on one in the post, he looks uncomfortable and doesn't score at a high level. MJ had the greatest post game of any back court player in the history of the game. It's sad that as big and strong as LeBron is, he hasn't developed that part of his game to this point.

jordans mid range/short turnaround jumper is the most dangerous move in nba history....ahead of even kareem's sky hook

shocking that kobe's the only gueye who's made an effort to mimic it to any degree

[ChalkyDog]

you were using stats to compare robertson and lebron...i was simply explaining why that's not good reasoning

all we can do is compare players relative to their era....lebron is far and away the best player of his generation....oscar robertson wasn't...that's pretty much a fact

if you want to compare/contrast generations, well of course that's 100% opinion

The ppg argument seems valid. The only concern I have is that number is often a very flawed parameter.

For one, FT's were at ridiculous rates back then, think I read (this was a long time ago - too lazy to google for reference) that the league was averaging around 80 FT's per game, compared to the 40's or 50's in the modern day.

I have been trying to get into more advanced metrics for College Basketball betting, and one of the key's to capping is understanding possessions per game. (tells you so much - and if props are offered, could read like a book).

The thing I would love to see is a record of possessions per game. Obviously, this would take someone to sit there and do the math - which I don't think anyone has done. I am actually interested in this, so if anyone knows of a place I could reference that - it would be awesome. (Hell, I'll throw in some betpoints, if anyone can find legit stats on possessions per game throughout the seasons - specifically the 60's and early 70's).

Regardless, O averaged a trip dub - something that never happened before or since. (not career obviously).

Finally something in PT that became thought provoking to me,.

[thetrinity]

Lebron is a great talent and player but he hasn't reached that Kobe/Jordan level of of killer instinct and refusal to lose.

I mean, we are one free throw or missed Ray Allen three from not even having this discussion. Lebron has went to three game 7s in the past two years and Jordan never went to one.

Lebron won't win 7 rings. If he does, then yes, we can have the discussion.

He needs to win a few more titles. Hell, he only has half as many as Duncan. I'm slowly giving him more and more credit but that's because he was won titles the last two season. If he keeps it up, I'll welcome the conversation more.

first this is wrong, jordan has been in game 7s during title runs just never in the finals, i can think of 2 off the top of my head indiana the last championship and knicks in i think the 2nd one.

second you are right lebron is not winning 7 rings. id say probably 4 or 5. hes been in the nba since high school, his body is going to break down at an earlier age.

one thing no one ever brings up is that jordan won 6 titles under phil jackson kobe won 5, a guy who everyone says is the best coach ever, lebron wins 2 with eric spolestra, a guy most people think should be working at mcdonalds, so i think he deserves some credit for that, jordan still should be the best ever, bill russell id say 2nd, he could end up 3rd.

[TheMLBKing]

Fact:Jabbar was better
Fact:Russell was better
Fact:Chamberlain was better
Fact: Magic was better
Fact: Kobe is better
Fact: Jordan was better
Fact: There are five or so more you can argue that was better, or just as good.

lol @ bolded. stevenash exposed as an idiot once again.

[stevenash]

lol @ bolded. stevenash exposed as an idiot once again.

Do you live to stalk my posts?
Don't you have a girlfriend that needs attention at 4am instead of stalking each and every one of my posts in the middle of the night?
Wait a minute, I can answer that one, no you don't have anybody or anything significant in your life at 4am, so you feel compelled to stalk me on the internet on a nightly basis.

Get a life dude. Seriously. I'm flattered that you pay so much attention to me, but really, get a life.

[ramones951]

There would absolutely be a debate, but I don't think he'll quite make it to 7

[k13]

Jordan is overrated.
Rings are overrated.
Horry has more titles so he's better than both of them.

Jordan played against unathletic/undersized guards and white scrubs.

Celtics and Pistons kicked his ass in their primes every year.


Luckly Stern needed the torch passed on to someone who would be a good sell to White America.
Jordan got the most calls out of anyone in the league, so this Lebron shit is a joke with the refs.

Who cares about either one of them, White Americans are an embarrassment to their European ancestors.
Everyone knows blacks would never support a white sport.

While Jews exploit and laugh at both of them.

Pathetic.


Jordan never got lucky.....did you kids not watch the finals?
2 point win, 1 point, 1 point win, 4 point win Game 6's, Kerr's lucky 3's, push off buzzer beaters, etc.

[meader99]

Jordan is overrated.
Rings are overrated.
Horry has more titles so he's better than both of them.

Jordan played against unathletic/undersized guards and white scrubs.

Celtics and Pistons kicked his ass in their primes every year.


Luckly Stern needed the torch passed on to someone who would be a good sell to White America.
Jordan got the most calls out of anyone in the league, so this Lebron shit is a joke with the refs.

Who cares about either one of them, White Americans are an embarrassment to their European ancestors.
Everyone knows blacks would never support a white sport.

While Jews exploit and laugh at both of them.

Pathetic.


Jordan never got lucky.....did you kids not watch the finals?
2 point win, 1 point, 1 point win, 4 point win Game 6's, Kerr's lucky 3's, push off buzzer beaters, etc.

Why is it luck to win close games? I watched MJ plenty enough to see him hit clutch shots consistently. Wouldn't call it luck after seeing him knock down so many game deciding shots. 24-11 record in the Finals. LeBron is under .500.

[stevenash]

Why is it luck to win close games?

Luck is the residue of design.

[meader99]

Luck is the residue of design.

Luck happens when preparation meets opportunity.

[stevenash]

Luck happens when preparation meets opportunity.

That too.

[dlunc3]

If Lebron wins 4 there is a great debate. If Lebron wins 7 he wil be hands down no question about it the greatest ever

[dlunc3]

I'll state again...

1) Both lebron and jordan both won their 2nd rings in their 8th playoff appearence. When Lebron did it, he was 28. Jordan was 29.

2) By the time Jordan was his 2nd ring, he had led his team to 13 playoff series wins. Lebron has led his team to 19 playoff series wins now after winning his 2nd ring.

3) Lebron has a playoff win % rate of .638. At the time of Jordans 2nd ring, he had a playoff win % of .587.

4) Lebron has won 4 MVPs. Jordan had only won 3 at the time when he won his 2nd title.

5) Lebron is a 9 time all start. Jordan was an 8 time all star when he won his 2nd ring.

6) Career game 7 ppg: Lebron 34.4, Jordan 33.7.

[Mr Handicapable]

I'll state again...

1) Both lebron and jordan both won their 2nd rings in their 8th playoff appearence. When Lebron did it, he was 28. Jordan was 29.

2) By the time Jordan was his 2nd ring, he had led his team to 13 playoff series wins. Lebron has led his team to 19 playoff series wins now after winning his 2nd ring.

3) Lebron has a playoff win % rate of .638. At the time of Jordans 2nd ring, he had a playoff win % of .587.

4) Lebron has won 4 MVPs. Jordan had only won 3 at the time when he won his 2nd title.

5) Lebron is a 9 time all start. Jordan was an 8 time all star when he won his 2nd ring.

6) Career game 7 ppg: Lebron 34.4, Jordan 33.7.

Good stats but James came right to the NBA and was fighting 1 on 5 while Jordan was coasting at North Carolina saving his body. There was a saying back then "The only person that can stop Michael Jordan is Dean Smith". Indiana beat NC one NCAA tourn. because Smith was a idiot and rotated MJ in and out like he was just an average player. Smith was known for going 9 or 10 deep and rotating no matter who you were. What I'm saying is MJ had much lower miles on the tires than LJ at the same age.

Some other ideas to consider

1. If Pop & every other Spur but Duncan doesn't fk up gm 6 then Duncan has 5 rings and is regarded by everyone as better than James with only 1 ring in 4 finals.

2. The game was faster in the 80s...early 90s til Detroits hang and bang style took over. Jordan had 63 vs Boston in 1986 (I think?) and still lost. Teams play so slow now LJ would never have the chance to score near that much. Teams today have 5x better athletes than the 80s Celtics but Boston spread the court and could run the break w/slow white guys cause of the outlet passing. Playoff games were 122-119 all the time. Its totally diff now so comparisons are kind of stupid. They couldn't play zone back then either.

[Mr Handicapable]

I also forget Jordan missed 1 whole year and most of the next regular season playing baseball....instead of going 40 min a night like James. Personally I think you'll see James fade like Wade after 30.

[aireent777]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jHODUGvjDWY

[TheMLBKing]

Do you live to stalk my posts?
Don't you have a girlfriend that needs attention at 4am instead of stalking each and every one of my posts in the middle of the night?
Wait a minute, I can answer that one, no you don't have anybody or anything significant in your life at 4am, so you feel compelled to stalk me on the internet on a nightly basis.

Get a life dude. Seriously. I'm flattered that you pay so much attention to me, but really, get a life.

none of your ad hominem attacks change the fact that you were exposed as an idiot, yet again.

[stevenash]

none of your ad hominem attacks change the fact that you were exposed as an idiot, yet again.

And yet you continue to stalk me.
Why is it you are the only one on this site that thinks i'm an idiot.
How was I exposed I was an idiot?
Because I think Kobe is better than LeChoke?

Carry on with your stalking. Sorry, but I'm a straight man dude, I don't go your way.

[Goat Milk]

If Lebron retired today. Here's the list. In order.

1. Jordan.
2. Bryant.
3. Magic.
4. Kareem.
5. Lebron.

If Lebron wins 7 rings he will easily be considered better than Jordan. His achievements aside from rings including stats are going to be much superior to Jordan's....

Lebron only needs 4 rings to be considered number 1 on that list.

[Cheme82]

Jordan didn't need refs help to win championships.

Ummm, he traveled every other drive. I'm sure he had a little help too.

[You mad bro]

If Lebron retired today. Here's the list. In order.1. Jordan.2. Bryant.3. Magic.4. Kareem.5. Lebron.If Lebron wins 7 rings he will easily be considered better than Jordan. His achievements aside from rings including stats are going to be much superior to Jordan's....Lebron only needs 4 rings to be considered number 1 on that list.

Yet you still think your opinion matters

[UntilTheNDofTimE]

Well if Lebron plays 22 seasons which he probably can and wins 7 rings is that really the same as Jordan winning 6 championships in 14 seasons( lets not count the last 2 on the wizards). Lebron Just completed his 10th season so he can come pretty close if he gets 2-3 more in the next 4 years.

[ChalkyDog]

The real GOAT decided to chime in on this thread with a video.

[Goat Milk]

Yet you still think your opinion matters

my ytd this year and in the playoffs. thanks.

[You mad bro]

my ytd this year and in the playoffs. thanks.

Lol but last years ytd? How about all your losing prop bets?

People like you make this forum horrible .. All you do is say you win meanwhile you're really not a winner ... Cant wait for u to become an assistant coach .. Smh you're such a tool ..