1. #1
    UltimateSelector
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    War Pass! .. The Reason why ... Duped?

    Commentary: Right to Know
    by Dan Liebman
    Date Posted: 3/18/2008 2:20:19 PM
    Last Updated: 3/18/2008 2:20:19 PM


    Dan Liebman, Editor in Chief
    Photo: File Photo
    Bettors have every right to be incensed after hearing owner Robert LaPenta say that following War Pass’ last-place finish in the March 15 Tampa Bay Derby (gr. III), the colt had run a fever earlier in the week.
    Thoroughbred racing would not exist without those who wager on the races, and at a time when the industry is battling integrity issues on several fronts, it is little wonder confidence is eroding in the product.

    Many of those whose dollars support Thoroughbred racing would not have wagered on the unbeaten champion had they known he had been ill the week of the race. War Pass had trouble early in the race and may not have won anyway, but it leaves a bad taste in the collective mouths of the betting public when it believes it has been misled.

    There are numerous things trainers are required to report, like equipment changes, such as the addition of b l i n kers or a shadow roll, or the use of medication. But they are not mandated to notify anyone when a horse runs a fever, has a rash, or is in the midst of a myriad of other veterinary conditions. Still, when one of the clear favorites for the Kentucky Derby Presented by Yum! Brands (gr. I) runs a fever the week of an important prep race, the public should be informed.

    Bettors on- and off-track made War Pass the 1-20 favorite for the Tampa Bay Derby, the lowest price that exists in pari-mutuel wagering. That he was flawless in five starts by a combined 22 lengths, including the Bessemer Trust Breeders’ Cup Juvenile (gr. I), made handicappers feel extremely confident in the son of Cherokee Run’s chances against six opponents, only one of whom had even won an open stakes.

    War Pass had never been headed in his previous races, so when he acted up in the gate and was then bumped at the start, it certainly compromised his chances. The public is wondering if the fact the Nick Zito-trained colt had been sick the week of the race also was a factor.

    As would be expected when a 1-20 shot runs last, it caused for huge show payoffs—$25.20, $27.80, and $76.40.

    As stated, trainers must report certain equipment changes. But what about the most significant equipment change of them all? That is, when a colt or horse becomes a gelding.

    The day before the Tampa Bay Derby, Anzisong’s past performances showed him as a 5-year-old horse for the eighth race at Santa Anita. After six races in 2006 and 2007 in Cal-bred maiden special weight events—his best finish being a third—Anzisong showed up after nearly a year since his last start in a Cal-bred $40,000 maiden claiming contest. He also showed up as a gelding.

    An announcement was made on track, but considering 85% of money is now wagered off-track, few knew of the equipment change for Anzisong, who won the race by a neck in his first start for trainer Rafael Becerra. He paid $23.60.

    With the sums of money being wagering today off-track and over the Internet, an on-track announcement is not enough. Anzisong should have been scratched, and his past performances updated to correctly inform the wagering public. Just as first-time Lasix and first-time b l i n kers are important for a handicapper to know, so is first-time gelding.

    The National Basketball Association no longer states which referees will be working games because some are prone to call more fouls than others. Major League Baseball announces umpires, but not which one will be behind the plate because they all have different strike zones. In these cases, too much information leads to wagering patterns.

    Horse racing is different. Information is everything. In less than 24 hours, bettors were deceived twice. Some may decide they have had enough.

    Who can blame them?




    Copyright © 2008 The Blood-Horse, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    SUBSCRIBE to The Blood-Horse magazine TODAY!

    http://www.bloodhorse.com/viewstory_plain.asp?id=44133

  2. #2
    UltimateSelector
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    IMHO I would ask this question ....

    Would or did the connections (Owners, Trainers) wager any of their own serious money on War Pass this day? Knowing what they knew .
    If they did not then it was deceitful to the industry & to the public. This information should have been disclosed or he should have been scratched!

    Any comments or thoughts on how this should be handled?

    Your views & take on this matter are appreciated! ...

  3. #3
    choking
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    I thought their may have been some dishonesty in that race myself. But I did read an article earlier on Zito and LaPenta about WP. Zito said his horse had a high temperature, not something that would jeopardize a race. Afterwards, LaPenta came out retracting his statement that the horse had a fever, claiming he was not in the right mind after seeing his horse finish last.

    Had the horse not been roughed up at the start, I would have claimed foul. With all that money in the show pool and for WP to finish last, makes ya wonder..

  4. #4
    yahoonino
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    after that race im one of them who had enough

  5. #5
    yahoonino
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    im been betting horses all my life,,,and finally i got to said i had enough,,,,it dont matter how much i handicapp the race ,,the horse dont run like the look in the racing form,,it a tought sport to make money,,,,it fun but ,,,enough is enough

  6. #6
    thezbar
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    Its possible they are using this as an excuse to protect the horse's value. It may have been an issue, but if it was really serious the trainer would have told the owners not to run. Horses race with issues every racing day. It would be interesting to hear the vets side of this story.

  7. #7
    exstatman
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    Quote Originally Posted by UltimateSelector View Post
    IMHO I would ask this question ....

    Would or did the connections (Owners, Trainers) wager any of their own serious money on War Pass this day? Knowing what they knew .
    If they did not then it was deceitful to the industry & to the public. This information should have been disclosed or he should have been scratched!

    Any comments or thoughts on how this should be handled?

    Your views & take on this matter are appreciated! ...

    So are owners required to wager on their horses, and if they don't it means there's something wrong? Does this apply to only G1 races, or every race, including a $1500 claimer at Rillito?

    "Ladies and gentleman, your attention please; in the upcoming race, please note, the owners of the current favorite are NOT wagering on him/her and have refused to scratch." How absurd.

  8. #8
    UltimateSelector
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    I believe your missing the point here exstatman!

    When there is a Big race like this one with over 3/4 of a million dollars in the show pool alone that is alot of guys emptying their bank accounts for just this occasion. If your telling me that Owners & trainers don't wager on their horses in a Big race like this then You are Wrong. If they did not, then they knew better to do it. That means they let all of the racing world wager on a Dud! Would they & can they consciously do that? You tell me! This is not just a regular race my friend. Think about that! ... But for you to think in the manner you think about it by the statements you made tells me you do not play in this world of the "Sport of Kings"

    Respectfully,
    Ultimate Selector!

  9. #9
    exstatman
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    Sorry US, I am more involved in the game now that you will ever be.

    So I ask you again, how do we notify the wagering public, and under what circumstances? Does this apply to a certain grade, purse level or what? Does it only apply if there's a large show pool? How much must the owners and/or trainers wager in order to avoid a public notice? As you wager based on certain rules, please describe the rules you propose.

  10. #10
    UltimateSelector
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    Again you seem to be Missing the point here!

    Should they even have raced this horse at all, knowing that he was ill for the week. ?? Why let the public take a plunge on this horse if they knew this & knew a ton of money was going to be wagered on it in this spot. I mean if they wern't willing to wager on it in such an easy looking spot themselves why let everybody else? Get my point? ...

    By the way if you are more involved that I will ever be as you say, then please feel free to post some plays with me. I think I would find it interesting to see how you approach this game!

  11. #11
    exstatman
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    Quote Originally Posted by UltimateSelector View Post
    IMHO I would ask this question ....

    Would or did the connections (Owners, Trainers) wager any of their own serious money on War Pass this day? Knowing what they knew .
    If they did not then it was deceitful to the industry & to the public. This information should have been disclosed or he should have been scratched!

    Any comments or thoughts on how this should be handled?

    Your views & take on this matter are appreciated! ...

    You clearly state that if the owners did not bet "serious money" on their horse, it should have been either disclosed or the horse should have been scratched. What part am I getting wrong?

  12. #12
    UltimateSelector
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    What your getting wrong here is the intent. I am not saying to disclose that they wagered anything on their horse. It all is the intent that is important here. What I am saying is the illness maybe should have been disclosed. This was such a big race with Big money that if the connections were not willing to wager on it in this spot then nobody else would either. I mean the chalkiest of chalks here ends up LAST! do you get any of what I am trying to imply here? or are you just bent on twisting all this & try to make it more complicated?

  13. #13
    exstatman
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    Not bent at all, just took you for what you said. Even your last post said if they weren't willing to bet on their own horse, no one else would either. But before that, you said they shouldn't disclose this, so yes, I am confused.

    So what should be done? Should it be required for any horse less than 100% to be identified? And who determines that? One would expect a trainer would not risk a long term problem to run a horse in a race, the TB Derby, which is NOT the ultimate goal. If the horse can't run in the KY Derby because of what happened here, the trainer will certainly pay a price.

    Seriously, what do you propose? Remember when Lasix was first used, you had to go to the racing office to find out who was using, then, eventually, it became a handicapping factor and is now in every program or PP.

  14. #14
    UltimateSelector
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    I suppose this merry go round is not going to stop.

    All I am saying is if a horse is ill for a week leading up to a big race should the public be made aware of it? I mean if the Super bowl is gunna be played & the quaterback has a broken finger or a bad ankle for a week leading up to the game, & then has to be taken out in the 1st quarter for the rest of the game, should that be disclosed b4 anyone wagers big money on the game? Or do you just ignore it & hide the fact it will have a major impact on the outcome of the game. But yet still let millions of people wager millions of dollars & just let it go down the drain like you never knew anything was wrong? I don't know how to regulate this type of thing but for starters I think some kind of disclosure is warranted. Am I wrong?

  15. #15
    exstatman
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    You're asking a question that goes beyond racing. If the starting pitcher was out too late the night before, or has a hangnail that makes throwing painful, what should be done? Racing has always worked on a trust basis with trainers expected to run a horse at or near 100%, but at what point do they scratch? Is it 80%, maybe less, maybe higher? Don't get me wrong, the question isn't a bad one, but there has to be rules.

  16. #16
    UltimateSelector
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    I can agree with that. I know it's a grey area but you would still think some common sense would prevail at some point with millions & even billions of dollars at stake! I am not quite sure how it would be regulated but I know there is a Vet at the gate for each race so I guess that's the best for now! .. Anyway I enjoyed our little debate here but I am going to get some ZZZZ's for tomorrows fun filled day of Winners!

    Feel free to join in & post some Plays ...

    Have a Good Nite!

  17. #17
    INVEGA MAN
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    Very interesting, but I have seen this happen many times while watching horse races. That is why they call them bridge jumpers. They know the RISK they are taking. They have also won a lot of money by betting this way. Thats the chance they take. There is no way in hell that i bet my savings on a horse race. I have watched too many races to do somehing like that. Also, bettors win a lot of money by getting a lot of inside info from owners and trainers. It works both ways. If the owners had to report every fever a horse has, it would be a joke. Bettors wouldnt bet the horse and if he wins and pays a good price, you would scream that the horse wasn't sick and the owner and trainer wanted a better price on their horse.

  18. #18
    dodif
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    i read an article where ziot said the he had a slight temperature and that had nothing to do with it. He said the horse didnt take any medications. It wasnt the reason he said.

  19. #19
    exstatman
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    Excellent response. This is why our sport has an air of funny things happening. For instance, I know a horse tomorrow loves the synthetic versus conventional track. Should this be known by the public, or is this knowledge a trainer can keep quiet? If handicapping
    came down to only things one could read in PP's, the game would likely not exist.

  20. #20
    dodif
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    Quote Originally Posted by UltimateSelector View Post
    Commentary: Right to Know
    by Dan Liebman
    Date Posted: 3/18/2008 2:20:19 PM
    Last Updated: 3/18/2008 2:20:19 PM


    Dan Liebman, Editor in Chief
    Photo: File Photo
    Bettors have every right to be incensed after hearing owner Robert LaPenta say that following War Pass’ last-place finish in the March 15 Tampa Bay Derby (gr. III), the colt had run a fever earlier in the week.
    Thoroughbred racing would not exist without those who wager on the races, and at a time when the industry is battling integrity issues on several fronts, it is little wonder confidence is eroding in the product.

    Many of those whose dollars support Thoroughbred racing would not have wagered on the unbeaten champion had they known he had been ill the week of the race. War Pass had trouble early in the race and may not have won anyway, but it leaves a bad taste in the collective mouths of the betting public when it believes it has been misled.

    There are numerous things trainers are required to report, like equipment changes, such as the addition of b l i n kers or a shadow roll, or the use of medication. But they are not mandated to notify anyone when a horse runs a fever, has a rash, or is in the midst of a myriad of other veterinary conditions. Still, when one of the clear favorites for the Kentucky Derby Presented by Yum! Brands (gr. I) runs a fever the week of an important prep race, the public should be informed.

    Bettors on- and off-track made War Pass the 1-20 favorite for the Tampa Bay Derby, the lowest price that exists in pari-mutuel wagering. That he was flawless in five starts by a combined 22 lengths, including the Bessemer Trust Breeders’ Cup Juvenile (gr. I), made handicappers feel extremely confident in the son of Cherokee Run’s chances against six opponents, only one of whom had even won an open stakes.

    War Pass had never been headed in his previous races, so when he acted up in the gate and was then bumped at the start, it certainly compromised his chances. The public is wondering if the fact the Nick Zito-trained colt had been sick the week of the race also was a factor.

    As would be expected when a 1-20 shot runs last, it caused for huge show payoffs—$25.20, $27.80, and $76.40.

    As stated, trainers must report certain equipment changes. But what about the most significant equipment change of them all? That is, when a colt or horse becomes a gelding.

    The day before the Tampa Bay Derby, Anzisong’s past performances showed him as a 5-year-old horse for the eighth race at Santa Anita. After six races in 2006 and 2007 in Cal-bred maiden special weight events—his best finish being a third—Anzisong showed up after nearly a year since his last start in a Cal-bred $40,000 maiden claiming contest. He also showed up as a gelding.

    An announcement was made on track, but considering 85% of money is now wagered off-track, few knew of the equipment change for Anzisong, who won the race by a neck in his first start for trainer Rafael Becerra. He paid $23.60.

    With the sums of money being wagering today off-track and over the Internet, an on-track announcement is not enough. Anzisong should have been scratched, and his past performances updated to correctly inform the wagering public. Just as first-time Lasix and first-time b l i n kers are important for a handicapper to know, so is first-time gelding.

    The National Basketball Association no longer states which referees will be working games because some are prone to call more fouls than others. Major League Baseball announces umpires, but not which one will be behind the plate because they all have different strike zones. In these cases, too much information leads to wagering patterns.

    Horse racing is different. Information is everything. In less than 24 hours, bettors were deceived twice. Some may decide they have had enough.

    Who can blame them?




    Copyright © 2008 The Blood-Horse, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    SUBSCRIBE to The Blood-Horse magazine TODAY!

    http://www.bloodhorse.com/viewstory_plain.asp?id=44133
    article day later

    http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=44141

  21. #21
    exstatman
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodif View Post
    i read an article where ziot said the he had a slight temperature and that had nothing to do with it. He said the horse didnt take any medications. It wasnt the reason he said.
    Tampa is a weird track, and some don't take to it. IMHO, if the horse worked on the track and didn't get a hold of it, the trainer should have gone elsewhere, regardless the competition.

  22. #22
    dodif
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    well i got 30000 riding on war pass and 10000 on pyro for the derby

    what r my chances?

  23. #23
    exstatman
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    Who knows? WP will likely be a decent price in May, while Pyro will be overbet. Futures markets on the Derby generally haven't been great since Winning Colors, unless you find the winner in the year before the Derby.

  24. #24
    icemantbi
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    Interesting read.

    The thing that gets me though is the dummies who bet huge amounts of money to win so little. Obviously, with 3/4 of a Million in the show pool, that's alot of people risking thousands to win a few measly hundred. To those guys, they had it coming to them, sorry. The chalk always gets you in the end. Same kind of people who bet -500 on the Patriots to win the SB. Whether the horse is sick or not really isn't the case here. If you are stupid enough to risk a few thousand to win a few hundred, you deserve to get burned. I didn't bet the race, but if I did I certainly would not have bet War Pass, no matter all the hype. People want money without the hassle, instead of doing some work and figuring out where the value is.

    Just my 2c

  25. #25
    thezbar
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    It was War Pass's second race off a layoff on a surface he had never ran before. Two good reasons not to bridge jump. Bottom line when you bet money in a horse race you are taking a risk!
    As for you're Derby futures I think you have an excellent shot with Pyro and two chances with War Pass. You know the rest of that statement. I'll be surprise if War Pass runs in the Derby at this point.

  26. #26
    Seattle Slew
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    I agree. It's all a bunch of BS. Owners and trainers of big horses say this stuff all the time. You can find something wrong with every horse on any day. They are delicate animals.

    Quote Originally Posted by thezbar View Post
    Its possible they are using this as an excuse to protect the horse's value. It may have been an issue, but if it was really serious the trainer would have told the owners not to run. Horses race with issues every racing day. It would be interesting to hear the vets side of this story.

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