[nyed1010]

He held his own actually had Nog in danger at times, Nog is an Elite Black Belt that was some time ago hes a world class fighter do you think his ground game got worse in 5 years or better hint: probably better... im on your side (im backing jones) but you sound like a Tuff newb some of the things you are saying. I teach bjj/sub grappling ground skills arent lost unless you take a long time off (years) and im talking long and even then its like riding a bike after weeks/months you'll get it back. you only get better on the ground with time so im not sure what your point is about that fight being 5 years ago it is valid and the best example i can think of showing shoguns ground skills vs a well respected BTT Black Belt in lil Nog.

5 years is a long time. I don't care if his ground game got better or worse in those 5 years. The real point here is that MMA has evolved so much in 5 years and wrestling/ground game techniques and styles have changed. That was the point.

[nyed1010]

good point didnt see that...guy is a newb for sure

the only "noob" here are these guys that don't respond with actual reasoning or analysis but with worthless comments like "he's a noob", how old are you guys? I can guarantee you I'm much younger than most of you degens and don't use stupid computer game rhetoric like you idiots. The only "noob" here are people like you that doesn't understand the differences and changes that have occurred in 5 years and how absurd it is to really take much information from a fight that happened 5 years ago. You add the injuries and different training regimens of Shogun himself who has taken up boxing recently and tell me how much a fight 5 years ago really tells us for a fight that will happen in present time. , the chances of you teaching BJJ are the same as Deuce playing for the detroit red wings

[Eccocide]

please enlighten me and I'm not talking about fighters he fought 80 years ago in Pride. I just gave you the fighter he's fought in the past few years and none of them come close to Jones.

I don't want to get in a long winded debate as your mind is set. But if you think Jones is as well-rounded as Machida/Liddell at this stage of his career then this is a pointless conversation as we are already worlds apart. Let alone those guys he fought from "80 years ago" like Rampage, Lil Nog, etc.

I'm glad you are impressed by Jones flashy striking but he is nowhere near the level of Shogun on the feet. His striking defense is bad, his technique is lacking and he is just learning how to establish his reach and hasn't really made much use of it yet. On the ground, yes he has great wrestling and elbows, but he leaves himself open to sweeps as he did vs. Bader (although Bader has no idea what to do off of his back). Shogun is very good off of his back, avoids damage and gets back to his feet quite well. He's faced better grapplers than Jones throughout his career and has come out victorious.

Jones is a great talent and he will be even better in a couple years, but to call him well-rounded or the most well-rounded fighter Shogun has fought is laughable. He's a beast from top control but he has a lot of work to do still, especially in the standup.

Anyway, I'm out of this debate for now. If the TS wants to take me up on my offer lemme know!

[Eccocide]

And I'm not saying Jones cannot win, or wont win, etc. I just take exception to calling him extremely-well rounded at this stage, especially in comparison to the competition Shogun has faced.

[nyed1010]

I don't want to get in a long winded debate as your mind is set. But if you think Jones is as well-rounded as Machida/Liddell at this stage of his career then this is a pointless conversation as we are already worlds apart. Let alone those guys he fought from "80 years ago" like Rampage, Lil Nog, etc.

I'm glad you are impressed by Jones flashy striking but he is nowhere near the level of Shogun on the feet. His striking defense is bad, his technique is lacking and he is just learning how to establish his reach and hasn't really made much use of it yet. On the ground, yes he has great wrestling and elbows, but he leaves himself open to sweeps as he did vs. Bader (although Bader has no idea what to do off of his back). Shogun is very good off of his back, avoids damage and gets back to his feet quite well. He's faced better grapplers than Jones throughout his career and has come out victorious.

Jones is a great talent and he will be even better in a couple years, but to call him well-rounded or the most well-rounded fighter Shogun has fought is laughable. He's a beast from top control but he has a lot of work to do still, especially in the standup.

Anyway, I'm out of this debate for now. If the TS wants to take me up on my offer lemme know!

Finally, some actual analysis with valid points. Of course I disagree with a few things . I've never been a fan of Liddell. I don't know how you see him as more well rounded than Jones. What exactly does Liddell offer other than his great striking ability? As for Machida, great karate obviously, but other than that, he sits back and just counterpunches. You see where he is in his last few fights. Against rampage, he's neutralized until he gets that one big flurry, but as long as you avoid the big counter flurries, there's not much machida does other than that to win a fight. As opposed to jones who can win a fight several different ways.

[teaserpleaser]

Nyed do you have points? if not do you have $$$ if so post your email i'll send you my mma record, my links to when i was teaching in thailand and won the south east asian grappling games. I'll even send you a pick with me with the IFL team i coached. Sbr John or a Mod can confirm my name as its the same as my sign up. Now put up or shut up your mouth got you into something you arent going to talk your way out of.

[nyed1010]

Nyed do you have points? if not do you have $$$ if so post your email i'll send you my mma record, my links to when i was teaching in thailand and won the south east asian grappling games. I'll even send you a pick with me with the IFL team i coached. Sbr John or a Mod can confirm my name as its the same as my sign up. Now put up or shut up your mouth got you into something you arent going to talk your way out of.

, go read all my previous comments. Tell me where I don't present a point where I don't back it up with examples? send me a PM. I would love to see you teaching in Thailand to a bunch of underprivileged kids. Good to see some good charity work. Send the pic as well of the craptastic IFL you coached in. Congrats on coaching a bunch of scrubs that couldn't cut it in the various organizations that were light years ahead of the IFL. Now go google search some IFL pic(you mean pic right, not pick LOL) and send it to me. You would think an IFL "coach" could understand the differences in MMA over a 5 year period

[ttrace35]

Not sure why anyone woulda respond to this guy after this statement lol.

A nooooob will always expose himself, the more he talks. This is fukkin retarded.

[teaserpleaser]

So is that a yes you will put up $$$/points i will run rings around you picking mma or in cage or in life. By the way i taught mostly euros who fought in cage rage uk mma not thais you retard. Most Thais dont care about grappling. You are a tool damn near my whole IFL team went on to fight for ufc/elite xc/ or strikeforce.... so no more talking Yes or No .... are you in the LA area i'll give you a free private.

[Eccocide]

Finally, some actual analysis with valid points. Of course I disagree with a few things . I've never been a fan of Liddell. I don't know how you see him as more well rounded than Jones. What exactly does Liddell offer other than his great striking ability? As for Machida, great karate obviously, but other than that, he sits back and just counterpunches. You see where he is in his last few fights. Against rampage, he's neutralized until he gets that one big flurry, but as long as you avoid the big counter flurries, there's not much machida does other than that to win a fight. As opposed to jones who can win a fight several different ways.

I'll bite one more time I guess lol. Liddell has tremendous wrestling, he used it in reverse to keep fights standing. Just because he didn't use it offensively all that much doesn't mean he was marely a striker or that he isnt well rounded. I can't remember the guy ever being on his back for an extended period of time and he neutralized the wrestling of some of the best in the sport at the time.

As for Machida, its another instance of choosing where he wants the fight to take place. I know Tito is old, but Tito had little to no success taking Machida down, and even got taken down a couple of times himself (and Tito is known for his wrestling, although he is obviously on the decline). Lyoto's top game is underrated, but he rarely uses it. His clinch is solid and his footwork, head movement and countering is top-notch. I know you alluded to the Rampage fight, but I think the fact that Shogun knocked him out cold in his previous fight had a lot to due with his timidness and inability to commit.

Jones is a wrestler with vicious GnP and a lanky frame. He's very early into his career in terms of learning the intricacies of the ground game, his subs are pretty basic right now and as I stated before, his standup needs some work. As well, its a lot easier to look good at what you do when the UFC feeds you wrestler after wrestler who also have basic standup. He wasn't scared to throw down with the likes of O'brien, Hamill and Matyushenko. Mix it up a little bit, then go to the bread and butter with the Trip/TD and GnP. I'll be very surprised if he chooses to stand at all with Shogun, especially early in the fight. If Shogun can land his kicks on those toothpick legs with any frequency in the opening round or 2, a lot of Jones's explosiveness will dissappear. I'm sure Greg Jackson has prepared Jones well for this and I expect to see him work towards the fence and work for the takedown right away.

[MMAdisciple]

nyed talks about "stupid rhetoric" and puts "degens" in the same sentence

And I don't need an essay to prove you are a noob, your posts prove it. You are a hockey gambler fiending for action, drifting to MMA. Your game has the biggest hole yet you are still prideful. And Jones may crush Rua, but your take on the fight/fighters is an awfully poor, uneducated one and it all but guarantees your ignorance won't win you bets in the long term. Again, your drifting is so apparent, stick to hockey. (no pun intended)

[teaserpleaser]

i hate Trolls... im done hes a waste of time have fun with this noob.

[nyed1010]

I'll bite one more time I guess lol. Liddell has tremendous wrestling, he used it in reverse to keep fights standing. Just because he didn't use it offensively all that much doesn't mean he was marely a striker or that he isnt well rounded. I can't remember the guy ever being on his back for an extended period of time and he neutralized the wrestling of some of the best in the sport at the time.

As for Machida, its another instance of choosing where he wants the fight to take place. I know Tito is old, but Tito had little to no success taking Machida down, and even got taken down a couple of times himself (and Tito is known for his wrestling, although he is obviously on the decline). Lyoto's top game is underrated, but he rarely uses it. His clinch is solid and his footwork, head movement and countering is top-notch. I know you alluded to the Rampage fight, but I think the fact that Shogun knocked him out cold in his previous fight had a lot to due with his timidness and inability to commit.

Jones is a wrestler with vicious GnP and a lanky frame. He's very early into his career in terms of learning the intricacies of the ground game, his subs are pretty basic right now and as I stated before, his standup needs some work. As well, its a lot easier to look good at what you do when the UFC feeds you wrestler after wrestler who also have basic standup. He wasn't scared to throw down with the likes of O'brien, Hamill and Matyushenko. Mix it up a little bit, then go to the bread and butter with the Trip/TD and GnP. I'll be very surprised if he chooses to stand at all with Shogun, especially early in the fight. If Shogun can land his kicks on those toothpick legs with any frequency in the opening round or 2, a lot of Jones's explosiveness will dissappear. I'm sure Greg Jackson has prepared Jones well for this and I expect to see him work towards the fence and work for the takedown right away.

good points. Liddel and well rounded just don't go together for me . I guess it's because the only pictures in my head of Liddell's career is of him knocking out someone or getting knocked himself. I'm still not sure he's as well rounded in the sense that all aspects of their games are UTILIZED in a fight. Jones can and will use several aspects of his game, while Liddell and Machida are guys that stick to one thing and use other areas of their game in only the most dire situations. This is opposed to Jones who will just throw bags of everything at you at any given time. Jones is as likely to shoot for a takedown as he is to hit you with a spinning back fist at any given time.

[nyed1010]

i hate Trolls... im done hes a waste of time have fun with this noob.

, where do I act like a troll? It's just ironic you could call me a troll when I'm actually trying to have a legitimate debate while all you and these other idiots bring to the table are "you're a noob". F*cking comical
And for this other idiot poster, comparing "degen" and "noob" is not even close. Go look up the two words in the dictionary and maybe you will understand. GL finding "noob" at Merriam-Websters

[ttrace35]

There is a reason I wrote 95%. Meaning there are 5% who actually know what their talking about and I honestly believe this is a fair number, especially considering some of the comments left in this thread alone. Several guys here that have MMA related usernames calling me out and calling me a noob without even a sentence to back up their claims.

I called you a noob because, in a previous post, you asked, who has Shogun fought? For real homie? All you did was mention his short ufc career. Thats why I called you a fukkin noob. Shogun has a resume of big name knockouts. Your a disgrace to noobs, because even a noob would know to look up shoguns fights, and see that resume. The question is, who has bones fought?

[AribaAriba]

This will be jones show, the future p2p.

[MMAdisciple]

This will jon jones show, the future p2p.

+100

Yeah, this will jon jones show, the future p2p for sure.

[youngbutgood]

please enlighten me and I'm not talking about fighters he fought 80 years ago in Pride. I just gave you the fighter he's fought in the past few years and none of them come close to Jones.

I really hope this guy is trolling because you have to seriously mentally deficient to say the things he's saying. He must have started watching MMA, which he probably calls UFC, when Lesnar started fighting. TS do yourself a favor and google some of Shogun's old fights. By the way Ricardo Arona has a much better top game then Jon Jones, if he couldn't keep Shogun down few men can.

[teaserpleaser]

I really hope this guy is trolling because you have to seriously mentally deficient to say the things he's saying. He must have started watching MMA, which he probably calls UFC, when Lesnar started fighting. TS do yourself a favor and google some of Shogun's old fights. By the way Ricardo Arona has a much better top game then Jon Jones, if he couldn't keep Shogun down few men can.

[King Mayan]

I really hope this guy is trolling because you have to seriously mentally deficient to say the things he's saying. He must have started watching MMA, which he probably calls UFC, when Lesnar started fighting. TS do yourself a favor and google some of Shogun's old fights. By the way Ricardo Arona has a much better top game then Jon Jones, if he couldn't keep Shogun down few men can.

When is arona going to the UFC... his laynprey would win championships with UFC rules...

[jcubs55]

Thread = Hijacked... thanks guys.

[Dirty Sanchez]

Rua isn't exactly going to lay down and let Jones win....he's the champ for a reason. No one knows how Jones will act when he gets hit, and he WILL get hit. Rua is experienced in big fights....Jones is heading for his first big test....not tomato cans, like his last few opponents.

[illmatick]

Thread = Hijacked... thanks guys.

Ecco made you an offer. +200 might interest me as well.

[jcubs55]

Ecco made you an offer. +200 might interest me as well.

Of course you'd be interested... that's because that price is very far off market. The sharpest book in the world, Pinnacle, has this line at -189/+170... +185 is more than fair and BEATS the vig free line of +/-177, which is mathematically guaranteed to be a profitable wager in the long-term for anyone who accepts this offer (pending any line changes)... while it is NOT for me as I am still paying most vig. I'm not negotioating a price here, I'm offering a great deal to have some fun with fellow posters. I don't need all these points wagered as I already have hundreds of real dollars wagered on the fight. This was supposed to be a fun added angle of my wager, I don't need greedy posters asking for even more. I'm sure you understand.

[illmatick]

make it +210 and we have a deal. .

[Eccocide]

make it +210 and we have a deal. .

[JimmysEgo]

i think this is a 50/50 fight and i always say "when a fight is 50/50, lean to the money."

[KCJMAC]

And I'm not saying Jones cannot win, or wont win, etc. I just take exception to calling him extremely-well rounded at this stage, especially in comparison to the competition Shogun has faced.

According to the interview posted today on Bloody Elbow with Greg Jackson:

"The thing about that is Jon [Jones] is not a complete fighter yet for me. He's still learning. If he wins this fight against Rua then that is great but if he loses this fight it doesn't really matter to me because he's improving and he's getting better."

I'm going to side with Eccocide and Greg Jackson on this one.

[KCJMAC]

In for 88 pts.

[jcubs55]

In for 88 pts.

Your 88 vs my 163, booked GL

[Vaughany]

make it +210 and we have a deal. .

[nyed1010]

I called you a noob because, in a previous post, you asked, who has Shogun fought? For real homie? All you did was mention his short ufc career. Thats why I called you a fukkin noob. Shogun has a resume of big name knockouts. Your a disgrace to noobs, because even a noob would know to look up shoguns fights, and see that resume. The question is, who has bones fought?

nice job taking that out of context. There is a reason right after I said that, I listed his RECENT fights. I'm talking about who has he fought recently, I don't give a **** about some guy he fought a century ago. You're like the other ******* guy that thinks a fight 5 years ago means anything today. By your logic, the Liddell that got knocked out by franklin last year is the same fighter that knocked out Couture twice. I don't give a **** who he beat half a decade ago. I've already explained this to teaserretard already. did someone mention Arona.....this scrub just lost to some guy from cameroon in bitetti combat 4 , whatever the f*ck that is

[teaserpleaser]

You still dont get it, i dont care if he got beat or won that fight im just showing you an example of his skillset jesus whats so hard to understand about that?? My point is the ground skills he has in that fight are always going to be with him! Do you understand?? doesnt mattter if it was 20 years ago. The fact that it was 5 years ago doesnt matter i dont understand you or your reasoning at all. You have to be trolling nobody can be this dense.

[teaserpleaser]

nice job taking that out of context. There is a reason right after I said that, I listed his RECENT fights. I'm talking about who has he fought recently, I don't give a **** about some guy he fought a century ago. You're like the other ******* guy that thinks a fight 5 years ago means anything today. By your logic, the Liddell that got knocked out by franklin last year is the same fighter that knocked out Couture twice. I don't give a **** who he beat half a decade ago. . did someone mention Arona.....this. scrub just lost to some guy from cameroon in bitetti combat 4 , whatever the f*ck that is

You didnt explain shit to me its clear you dont know what the **** you are talking about and everybody knows it. You are the stupid jackass that thinks shogun could have got worse on the ground because of evolution like shogun isnt training these new techniques. Nobody said Shogun is that same fighter from 2005 numb nuts the point is his ground knowledge wont decrease if anything he will pick up things through the years. Its not like striking so your chuck reasoning is retarded. Once nobody said anything about Shogun being that fighter from 2005 only his ground skills could only improve..... Shogun is a one dimensional fighter and has no ground game. Noobish shit go post that on the underground they'll laugh you out of there in under 5 min Noob

[Cap dat 4ss]

Nyed the reason nobody takes you serious is because you have no winning history here nor do you have you ever spent any time on the mats. The guys you are arguing with have shown to consistently pick winners in MMA. You are basically here arguing for arguments sake with nothing more than your opinion vs. theirs. These are the same guys that have given solid analysis for past fights, have actual life experiences in this sport, forced the SBR book to change the ways it plays and given out winners for years. You certainly come across with a know-it-all attitude but nothing to back it up with. Good luck here but I think you're just banging your head against the wall