1. #1
    Vaughany
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    Underdog value??? Matt Wiman to beat Cole Miller at Fight for the Troops...

    Wiman came out at +185 on Bookmaker and is now down to +155 currently. 5dimes/Sportbet have Wiman available at +165; BetUs +160; and Pinnacle +162. For any EU based degenerates you can get Wiman at +190 on Ladbrokes currently which I may have to pounce on!

    Firstly, I have to get off my chest that Wiman gets right on my s at times as he is another fighter who likes the old religious psychobabble and is especially fond of quoting Bible passages in his post-fight interviews as if he is some reincarnation of Jesus Christ himself, his last speech after Danzig was just cringe-worthy and I almost hope that Miller chokes him out just to avoid another one of those situations!

    Anyway, back to the fight!...I believe that the odds for this fight should be closer to Miller -120 to -140; and Wiman +110 to +130 range or something around there, so at +165 to +190 that you can get him at currently = decent value IMO and this is why...

    Wiman has a solid all-round game and proficient level of submission defence was demonstrated in his fights with two legit BJJ black-belts in Tavares and Jim Miller, where he showed composure and also an aggressive guard (especially against Tavares). This I feel could be key in this fight with Cole Miller as I've noticed on forums such as Sherdog and Tapology that many are picking Miller to get the win via submission. I'm sceptical of this potential outcome for two reasons. Firstly, as above, I feel Wiman has an underrated grappling game. He was very comfortable with Tavares in their fight when he was on his back and most recently we saw him submit Danzig, allbeit controversially, but nontheless it showed how relaxed, confident and aggressive his BJJ game is today. Before that fight with Danzig, I believe Wiman was training with Gilbert Melendez, Jake Shields, and the Diaz brothers which speaks for itself. Secondly, Im not so sure the fight will even go to the ground as I think Wiman will feel his best chance of winning this is by standing and TKO/KO'ing Miller. Of course Miller may take it to the ground however I also feel this is easier said then done. Wiman has decent wrestling and Miller doesnt tend to actively shoot for takedowns (as he admitted in an interview before the Pearson fight). Of course, he could rock Wiman and send him to the mat leading to a submission (as per the Pearson fight), but then Wiman has a solid chin (he got hit by a big right hand from Tavares and just shook it off, and also showed he can take a beating against Jim Miller and Sam Stout) - and Cole doesnt exactly have great KO power so that outcome is also unlikely IMO.

    Wiman also has aggressive stand-up and decent KO power (see Tavares finish) which Miller has been susceptible to in the past against Stephens back in early 2008 (2nd round TKO loss) and about 14 months ago Efrain Escudero (1st rnd KO loss). Miller was also dropped by a left hook from Dan Lauzon but managed to pull off the win due to a combination of Lauzon's over-zealousness and Miller's superior BJJ. However, in his most recent fight against Pearson Miller showed improved stand-up and ability to utilise his reach and jab to good effect. I've noticed on some forums that people believe it was just a fluke punch that Miller landed on Pearson which lead to the submission and that Pearson was winning the fight until that point. Although I wouldn't go as far as sayin that the win was a fluke as such, I do however agree that Pearson was winning the fight and through lack of experience got slightly frustrated and perplexed by Miller's reach and jab and too anxious to finish the fight leading to him dropping his hands and forgetting about his footwork and head movement that he was using in the first round and as he had showed rather impressively against Dennis Siver. I also think that Pearson might of been overlooking Miller slightly due to the perceived big edge in striking that he had. Prior to the fight, Pearson worked mostly on his wrestling (training with Frankie Edgar and Rutgers for a couple of weeks) and didnt work as hard on his striking. As referred to earlier, Miller said in a pre-fight interview that he thought it was strange that Pearson was working extra hard on his wrestling as he had no intention of taking it to the ground, and to quote Cole "maybe he's thinking he's gonna walk straight through me and is playing catch up for the fight he might get after me." All in all, if they had a rematch, I wouldnt expect a similar outcome!

    There are also a couple of things that could/should be considered before betting either way on this fight:

    Is Cole Miller going to be distracted by the Cowboy Cerrone beef?!

    And it's been seven months since Wiman's last octagon appearance which was only 1 minute 45 seconds long. His previous fight before that was December 2009 against Shane Nelson. So that is only 1 minute and 45 seconds in the cage in over a year. Does this lack of cage time in the octagon = ring rust?

    I ultimately think that Wiman has a decent chance of winning this by either TKO/KO, or by decision if he lands some powerful shots that dont finish Miller and get's a couple of takedowns towards the end of rounds. Cole Miller clearly has a great chance to win this and is rightly the favourite due to his great team (ATT), momentum, and improved striking and 4/5" reach advantage combined with his dangerous submission game, however I just dont think he should be so heavily favoured. I feel there is value in Wiman at +150 or better and great value at +190 which I'm probably going to take at Ladbrokes.com. Additionally, due to both guys' great resiliency, I'd also consider taking the Over 2.5 or distance prop at plus odds. I know Lask has already got a unit on Wiman at +185 and Terp said he liked him at +160 so any further insight from you guys and anybody else would be awesome
    Last edited by Vaughany; 01-08-11 at 06:31 PM.
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  2. #2
    The HOFF
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    I think this is a great spot to take Wiman +3.5 points if that comes out.

  3. #3
    urge2kill
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    Excellent write up.

  4. #4
    Poppa Catfish
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    needs more calling people cans though

  5. #5
    Chairib
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  6. #6
    lasker
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    Another terrific breakdown Vaugh. Your contributions to this forum are outstanding. I have nothing to add, except that this should be a great pick for Fight of the Night if the odds are reasonable. You made a few points I hadn't thought of. In general I think the difference on the feet could be more telling than the difference on the ground. Not in technique (Miller is probably more technical on the feet as well), but as you point out Wiman has more power and the better chin. On the ground Wiman's no slouch and I agree he can probably hold his own based on his performance in the Tavares and Miller fights. This will be a wild and super-aggressive fight from both men, and as a general rule, in wild fights I think the value usually lies with the underdog.

    I also don't like rooting for the Jesus-mongers -- as I wrote before, the combination of Jesus and MMA strikes me as bizarre and hypocritical -- but I'll gladly put up with his hogwash if I win some $$ on the fight. BOL!
    Last edited by lasker; 01-09-11 at 12:59 AM.

  7. #7
    Vaughany
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poppa Catfish View Post


    needs more calling people cans though
    Ha shit yeah, I meant to call him "Can Miller" rather then "Cole Milller"!
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  8. #8
    THE_LOCKSMITH
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaughany View Post
    Ha shit yeah, I meant to call him "Can Miller" rather then "Cole Milller"!
    lol. yea you need to call some guys cans and say Wiman is a 100% lock. But on a series note it is impressive that Wiman has a 6-3 record in the UFC. Coming off season 5 of TUF he's lasted very long compared to other LW coming off that show lke the whole Mir/Nog season

  9. #9
    Poppa Catfish
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    I'm just worried about his nickname, I don't want to put my hard earned cash on "handsome" I want it on a guy named "ugly".

    food for thought
    Points Awarded:

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  10. #10
    jin2daj
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    i just jumped on wiman. TBH, ive never been impressed with cole miller. I think he has mediocre jiujitsu and standup but utilizes his long limbs well on the ground and on the feet.

    wiman is tall enough to somewhat nullify millers only real advantage in my opinion and I actually think miller should be the underdog here.

  11. #11
    jin2daj
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poppa Catfish View Post
    I'm just worried about his nickname, I don't want to put my hard earned cash on "handsome" I want it on a guy named "ugly".

    food for thought
    hahahaha very true.

  12. #12
    Poppa Catfish
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    Quote Originally Posted by jin2daj View Post
    hahahaha very true.
    That is the kind of hard hitting analysis you get from PC

    I know what you are saying, it always feels like Cole Miller just does enough to get the win, or he is handed the win (like in the Lauzon fight). Hardly impressive or dominant, and with this kind of odds I too will jump on the Ugly Matt Wiman bandwagon

  13. #13
    Vaughany
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairib View Post
    Ha thank you for your kind points donation Mr Kane!

  14. #14
    Vaughany
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasker View Post
    Another terrific breakdown Vaugh. Your contributions to this forum are outstanding. I have nothing to add, except that this should be a great pick for Fight of the Night if the odds are reasonable. You made a few points I hadn't thought of. In general I think the difference on the feet could be more telling than the difference on the ground. Not in technique (Miller is probably more technical on the feet as well), but as you point out Wiman has more power and the better chin. On the ground Wiman's no slouch and I agree he can probably hold his own based on his performance in the Tavares and Miller fights. This will be a wild and super-aggressive fight from both men, and as a general rule, in wild fights I think the value usually lies with the underdog.

    I also don't like rooting for the Jesus-mongers -- as I wrote before, the combination of Jesus and MMA strikes me as bizarre and hypocritical -- but I'll gladly put up with his hogwash if I win some $$ on the fight. BOL!
    Thank you Lask, much appreciated Sir! And I agree that this has great FOTN potential and I too will take it if it is undervalued like the Thiago Alves/Howard fight was at 124. The Dunham fight obviously has potential to be FOTN due to it being main event and the type of fighters, however, if Guillard fights like he did against Stephens then it may not live up to the hype, plus Dunham may go and finish it early.

  15. #15
    snake11eyes
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    Nice write-up, all good points, but I have to go with Miller on this one. Stand up I give slightly to Miller, ground I give to Miller. I see this fight going to the ground where I believe Miller has the advantage. However, I don't see him finishing Wiman. Miller by decision is the play.

  16. #16
    jin2daj
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    Quote Originally Posted by snake11eyes View Post
    Nice write-up, all good points, but I have to go with Miller on this one. Stand up I give slightly to Miller, ground I give to Miller. I see this fight going to the ground where I believe Miller has the advantage. However, I don't see him finishing Wiman. Miller by decision is the play.
    if this fight goes to the ground i see miller being on the bottom. he does have an active guard but his only real offense is a triangle choke. wiman going the distance with jim miller and omigawa have me thinking that wiman will be able to defend the sub while scoring points by simply being on top.

  17. #17
    rocky mattioli
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    i really could care less about the jesus stuff when handicapping a fight...i find "smug bastard evangelical atheism"(my phrase...not an insult directed at anyone) just as annoying as any other evangelical undertaking....i say live and let live...

    aside from that,i think it was a solid write up in what seems from here a relatively even fight...miller looks very good against certain styles...but wiman is a tenacious mofo and i think he has an excellent shot vs a spindly miller....

    thanks for posting,v...

  18. #18
    lasker
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky mattioli View Post
    i really could care less about the jesus stuff when handicapping a fight...i find "smug bastard evangelical atheism"(my phrase...not an insult directed at anyone) just as annoying as any other evangelical undertaking....i say live and let live... aside from that,i think it was a solid write up in what seems from here a relatively even fight...miller looks very good against certain styles...but wiman is a tenacious mofo and i think he has an excellent shot vs a spindly miller.... thanks for posting,v...
    I know you were addressing Vaugh, but speaking for myself, I am a religious person. I have nothing against any religion, but it does strike me as hypocritical and foolish when a post-fight interview becomes a platform for proselytizing (as with Benson Henderson, to give an extreme example), especially invoking Jesus' name which is the most common. But does it relate to capping a fight, of course not.
    Last edited by lasker; 01-11-11 at 08:46 AM.

  19. #19
    rocky mattioli
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasker View Post
    I am a religious person myself. I have nothing against any religion, but it does strike me as hypocritical and bizarre when a post-fight interview becomes a platform for proselytizing (as with Benson Henderson, to give an extreme example), especially invoking Jesus' name which is the most common. Does it relate to capping a fight? Of course not.

    i don`t see it as proseytizing....i just see it as something that works for that particular fighter...i see all this hand wringing and angst over what guys say after a fight on many boards(mostly from extremely young guys) and imo,it`s no different than thanking fans,family,your astrologer,the magic 8 ball or pauly shore....

    if i`m wagering on you and it works for ya,by all means,say your peace...and thanks for the money...

  20. #20
    Vaughany
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    ha yeah I have nothing against Wiman or any other dude in MMA who is religious, I just cant help but feel that it is slightly incongrous to the cause when the likes of Ben Henderson says that he has the power of Jesus in him whilst in the background a promo video shows him elbowing a dude in forehead! But of course, it should have no baring on capping a fight and I was merely jesting at the cringeness of Wiman's post-fight interviews! U can almost feel Rogan's total reluctance to go in to the ocatagon as Wiman bumbles about in his pocket trying to get his piece of paper with all his psalms on and thank yous! But I'll actually be a happy man if it does get to tht point in this one as this is first time I've bet on Ugly Wiman!

  21. #21
    lasker
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky mattioli View Post
    i don`t see it as proseytizing....i just see it as something that works for that particular fighter...i see all this hand wringing and angst over what guys say after a fight on many boards(mostly from extremely young guys) and imo,it`s no different than thanking fans,family,your astrologer,the magic 8 ball or pauly shore.... if i`m wagering on you and it works for ya,by all means,say your peace...and thanks for the money...
    I agree, "thanks for them money" is the most important thing for me as well, regardless who wins

    But to say "I can do all things through Christ the Lord and Saviour, all things are possible" and "can I get an Amen" from the audience... it's a clear case of proselytizing in my opinion. Using a position of fame and success to get the word out. And Benson Henderson, to stick with his example, does belong to a sect of Christianity known for proselytizing, so it's nothing out of the ordinary for him. Very different thanking your family or trainers than to say stuff like he does, and Wiman has sometimes said similar things. It makes me wonder if these fighters actually think Jesus would have been an MMA fan.

  22. #22
    lasker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaughany View Post
    ha yeah I have nothing against Wiman or any other dude in MMA who is religious, I just cant help but feel that it is slightly incongrous to the cause when the likes of Ben Henderson says that he has the power of Jesus in him whilst in the background a promo video shows him elbowing a dude in forehead!

  23. #23
    Poppa Catfish
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasker View Post
    I agree, "thanks for them money" is the most important thing for me as well, regardless who wins

    But to say "I can do all things through Christ the Lord and Saviour, all things are possible" and "can I get an Amen" from the audience... it's a clear case of proselytizing in my opinion. Using a position of fame and success to get the word out. And Benson Henderson, to stick with his example, does belong to a sect of Christianity known for proselytizing, so it's nothing out of the ordinary for him. Very different thanking your family or trainers than to say stuff like he does, and Wiman has sometimes said similar things. It makes me wonder if these fighters actually think Jesus would have been an MMA fan.
    Its not hardcore enough, I have had the pleasure of going deep south and witnessing the handling of snakes and talking in tongues. I would love for a MMA fighter to do that after a victory

  24. #24
    Chairib
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    Jesus didn't tap

  25. #25
    Vaughany
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    Good job Wiman backers!

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